Opinion Understanding Bhima Koregaon

Status
Not open for further replies.
He probably didn't even know that there are 2 types of Patels lol.
Reservations for Patels, Jatts, Marathas, muslims etc can be given with constitutional legislation by removing the 50% reservation limit... I think this was the plan of Congress in 2019 elections... This issue has the political power to counter Jai-Sri Ram + Ram mandir.

@Shajida Khan @Guynextdoor
If a community generates GDP and taxes, they have right over their assured share of government spending in education and jobs(hint reservation). OBC/SC/ST+muslims constitute 85% population, they should just ask for their share of government funding, which is anyway several times more than whatever they are currently they are getting in the form of reservations, Why should a community be forced to fund some other community in the name of merit ?

Especially a caste group with just 2-3% population, They can have their reservation free institutions... But please fund them with the tax and GDP which their community generates. Till positive then affirmative action will continue for Social justice.
 
Last edited:
If a community generates GDP and taxes, they have right over their assured share of government spending in education and jobs(hint reservation). OBC/SC/ST+muslims constitute 85% population, they should just ask for their share of government funding, which is anyway several times more than whatever they are currently they are getting in the form of reservations, Why should a community be forced to fund some other community in the name of merit ?

Especially a caste group with just 2-3% population, They can have their reservation free institutions... But please fund them with the tax and GDP which their community generates. Till positive then affirmative action will continue for Social justice.
I have question, what decides which community you belong to? Your birth? So you want the government to make decisions based on where and which family a person was born.

If you want to go that way, I have a better idea. Let the government do only the basic common to all things and in which you cann't do discrimination. Like judiciary, police, defence, fire fighters etc. Rest all the things let people fund out of their own pocket and have no reservation at all and keep the taxes low. Your money you decide how to spend. If you want to spend it for your 'community' your choice. Upshot is why even keep government in the loop or even force people to fund even the individual of their community or communities. Just let them buy anything they want out of their own pocket. Your entire education etc is now completely decided by which family you were born in! Exactly as you wanted.
 
Reservations for Patels, Jatts, Marathas, muslims etc can be given with constitutional legislation by removing the 50% reservation limit... I think this was the plan of Congress in 2019 elections... This issue has the political power to counter Jai-Sri Ram + Ram mandir.

So HALF isn't enough anymore? You want more than 50% reservations now??!!?? Desh ko barbaad karke chhodo ge kya?
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Infowarrior
So HALF isn't enough anymore? You want more than 50% reservations now??!!?? Desh ko barbaad karke chhodo ge kya?

as much as it takes and it is also clear that non reservation era India was technologically backward. Only after reservations were introduced that India became to get a reputation for technological powerhouse. So reservations are important for the good of the country,
 
Are you naive? i gave enough indications for you, yet you chose the route to Insult me.
There was just one swami Shri Adi Shankaraacharya who established Sanatana Dharma.. '
You don't know the concept of evolution, YOU ABRAHAMIC RELIGIONS WILL BE STUCK ONLY THERE!
While we Hindus question "Who am I"???
Do you understand that Tatva of Bhraman? " NA BHUTO NA BHAVISYHYATI!
you cannot question your Religion we can. As we are Seekers of Knowledge, WE CAN QUESTION EVEN YOUR GOD! DID your GOD EVER SAY OR answer back is the question?

This is why it is so important to break the monopoly of caste elements. Instad of talking about how to make GaN AESA they waste time discussing nature of life, brahman etc. Do some real work. Discard this nonsense and follow benthamite philosphy of utlity in every sphere of life.
 
Anti BJP forces should drop anti national politics of caste divisions, unrest, supporting terrorism and separatism. Literally lakhs of ppl have paid the price of their politics in punjab, assam, kashmir etc. Congress has no shame. Their supporters ought to have some.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Aravind and RATHORE
Bhima-Koregaon Violence: Hatred Being Created Against Brahmins Using History, Says Scholar Prakash Shah
Quoting well-known Indologist SN Balagangadhara’s ‘colonial consciousness’, Shah demands that the Christian notion of history, as brought by Europeans, needs re-evaluation.
Updated on: January 5, 2018, 10:50 AM IST
Eram Agha ,News18.com

At a time when Maharashtra is burning with contesting histories and memories, Dr Prakash Shah, who created quite a stir after he said “caste is a western construct” during a lecture at the Indian Council of Historical Research” had some thoughts on the Bhima-Koregaon battle as well.

Shah, a reader of culture and law at Queen Mary University of London, tells News18.com that “a lot of hatred is being created against upper castes and Brahmins, using history as a means to achieve it.”

Quoting well-known Indologist SN Balagangadhara’s ‘colonial consciousness’, Shah demands that the Christian notion of history, as brought by Europeans, needs re-evaluation. He says that we need to question what sense Indians can possibly make of that notion.

Here are excerpts from the interview:

What do you think took place during the Bhima-Koregaon battle? Is it a story of Mahar valour that overthrew the upper caste? Or was it a war between the British and Peshwas?

It is pretty clear that Bhima-Koregaon was a war between the Peshwas and the British, which the latter lost. British records testify that. People of various Jatis (caste) were involved on both sides. It is incorrect to claim, as contemporary ‘caste warriors’ do, that the so-called ‘lower castes’ like the Mahars of Maharashtra were not given any significant roles in fighting under Chhatrapati Shivaji, Chhatrapati Sambhaji and the Peshwas.

But the Bhima-Koregaon battle commemorates the valour of the oppressed classes in overthrowing the upper castes…

During the Bhima-Koregaon battle, the mercenaries did not perform bravely, so it would be incorrect for the Mahars to take credit for fighting ability. Towards the end of 19th century, the British dropped the practice of recruiting the so-called ‘lower castes’, turning instead to the ‘upper castes’, whom they found more useful for their wars. But we should not forget that historical aspects are being spun during the current conflict by those who want to make trouble by deepening rifts within society and by pitching castes against each other and taking political advantage of the situation.

Do you think there have been distortions in telling this history?

Contemporary caste warriors have a tendency to present facts according to their own versions of oppression. They use the currently dominant but incorrect narrative about the Hindu caste system, according to which they interpret certain factoids. Marxist narratives, for example, tended to present each event in terms of their own dogmas about capitalism, class war, interests of the bourgeoisie and so on. In doing so, they arbitrarily discarded alternative ways of thinking about society and politics. This as expected this led to a great deal of violence and oppression in many countries.

Could you please elaborate on the “contemporary caste warrior”?

Contemporary caste warriors have a comparable agenda it seems. Rather than accepting that people of various castes fought on both the Peshwa and British sides, which is documented, they want to present the British side of the war as if it was a Dalit war against the so-called ‘upper castes’. As some people have already observed on social media, this is somewhat like saying that the Indians won both World Wars. Certainly, the Indians fought in those world wars, but it was regarded as a victory for the British and their allies, not a victory for India. This comparison gives us an idea of the distorted narrative of the caste warriors. As I said, this spin is being used expediently and insincerely by those who want to create trouble within society.

So, who are these trouble-makers?

It is likely that such trouble is being fomented with the help of foreign countries, their agents and their Indian collaborators. The trouble-makers are well known and easily identifiable due to their connections to past instances of fomenting trouble.

How do you see the empowerment of second-generation Dalits? They are educated and well-versed in technology — so do they have the power to validate their history and struggle?

I cannot make sense of the term ‘second generation Dalit’. If provided the same quality of education and support that is available to all young Indian people, these so-called ‘Dalits’ can succeed like all others. Unfortunately, the Indian political discourse and the legal system have extended the victim narrative that the colonisers introduced. Even the people have developed a sense of entitlement to jobs, education etc. on the basis of their caste. This entitlement has now extended to distorting the past in order to suit certain political discourses.

You said you find the term Dalit non-meaningful. Could you explain that?

The term ‘Dalit’, although widely used, is not very meaningful to describe any segment of the Indian society today. It is, in fact, rather misleading. There is an assumption that they are a cohesive group, almost like one caste. This is certainly how a lot of European, American and Indian academics portray the situation. It is unclear to an international audience that ‘Dalit’ generally refers to those who are legislatively classed as Scheduled Castes under Indian law. The place of Scheduled Tribes, which is also a legislated term, is even more ambiguous. The categories basically derive from lists of Jatis that the British created during the colonial period and which have now slipped into common usage, without any serious thinking about what conceptually unites all of them. Therefore, one cannot make any general statement about Dalits as a whole – or any disadvantages or discrimination they suffer. British historian, David Washbrook, records that virtually all the violence in Tamil Nadu against Scheduled Castes was by other lower castes, not Brahmins who have in any case left the villages.

Research done by my colleagues, Dr Dunkin Jalki and Dr Sufiya Pathan of the Centre for Interdisciplinary Research in Humanities and Social Sciences (CIRHS) Karnataka, shows that the incidence of criminal atrocities is actually disproportionately lower against Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes, although that is hardly acknowledged or accurately presented because it goes against the dominant narrative of caste oppression.

Why do you think there are violent reactions over the way we read our history? What is the way forward since we have disparate views on it?

As Prof SN Balagangadhara of Ghent University in Belgium had said, “Indians have become cheap imitators of the West when writing history.” A set of factoids are linked together chronologically to dish out whatever narrative one feels like. In that sense, history has no scientific basis. The colonisers also told Indians that their history is a mere myth because it wasn’t like the colonisers’ ‘true’ history. That’s when things began to take a sinister dimension. Furthermore, in India, many identity groups have been made to feel as though they need to fashion a set of facts to ensure that their version of events is accepted as the true account.

A sort of ‘war against all’ is being fought by identity groups with history being a vehicle to do so. The Christian notion of history as brought by Europeans needs re-evaluation and it needs to be asked what sense Indians can possibly make of that notion. In the meantime, of course, things speed ahead, and there is a tendency, by external agents who want to create a violent outcome, to inflame matters in India. We should look to the Rwandan genocide as an example that should never be repeated. Unfortunately, there are indications that India is moving in that direction. A lot of hatred is being created, especially against upper castes and Brahmins, using history as a means to achieve that. I see this in daily use among academics too. The way their write about upper castes or Brahmins would be completely unacceptable, and in many countries legally actionable.

Could you elaborate on your study "Caste: A Colonial Construct"?

It is unfortunate that a way of thinking about caste, i.e. that there is Hindu caste system which mandated oppression against all those lower down within a hierarchical system, has taken hold of the imagination. I see this as a form of ‘colonial consciousness’, a term also developed by Prof SN Balagangadhara. Protestant missionaries saw Indian society in those terms due to their notions of false religion, which is how they saw Indian religions, with Hinduism being regarded as the most idolatrous. The idea of the hierarchical oppressive caste system or, as one Indian journalist put it a few days ago, the “Hindu caste system’s tyranny”, became a standard way to describe India. We have forgotten that it was the British who built on and implemented the notion in their state affairs and education system.

Could you talk about Balagangadhara’s research programme?

In Balagandhara’s research program, we say there are no such things as the caste system. We don’t say that it is a colonial construct that later became an Indian reality. We say there has never been and there is no ‘caste system’ in India. Yes, we have Jatis in India but we have very little understanding of their inter-relations or the role they play in Indian culture. The Christian and colonial story, though, is simply untrue. It cannot explain anything about today’s India, although its currency is widespread and it is used to create conflict. This is ‘colonial consciousness’: that Indians have been repeating a western story without being able to access their own culture and traditions.

What was the life of people in lower caste before colonialism? How have things changed?

Unfortunately, we are not in a position to provide any specific answers to this question. We have to conduct research on it very seriously. The prevalence of the Protestant story, which dominates Indian and foreign academia today in the secular form of the soci
al sciences, has meant the exclusion of alternative questions about what Jatis are, how they inter-relate and so on. There are a lot of ad hoc observations about it but these are unscientific opinions. In the dominant version, which we also see in the story claimed to be a successful Mahar assertion, the British colonisers come out as the saviours of the so-called ‘lower castes’. Today, we also tend to regard Christian missionaries as the saviours against the caste system. These accounts are either openly theological (missionary) or they have taken some facts of Christian theology as a true account of India (social sciences), but they have nothing to do with Indian traditions.

Bhima-Koregaon Violence: Hatred Being Created Against Brahmins Using History, Says Scholar Prakash Shah


Amazing.

An interview based entirely on verbiage.
 
My son turned 16 on 31st Dec this year and that required him to undergo janeo ceremony which is very sacred for Brahmins. My son was required to carry human shit on his head to become a Brahmin and then ask for guidance from the elders. He refused. I had to explain to him that every person is born a shudra and his karma makes him what he can be within our varna system. Brahmins are also called Dvijanma (twice born) as they are born shudra and they have to again become a brahmin by their Karma to be a Brahmin. The son of a Brahmin has to be reborn as a Brahmin by carrying human shit on his head like a shudra and ask for Gyaan from his guru to be accepted as a Brahmin. We are Bhardwaj gotra Pathak shashan Brahmins and we are Brahmin-kshatriyas.
I want to know and ask all those who believe in caste system to explain this ritual of Brahmins? if I can carry human shit on my head which I did when I had my janeo ceremony, what separates me from a shudra who carries human shit on his head? Should we give such elaborate coverage to new age defeatists who survive only on reservations and are losers of humanity. Such idiots who are incapable of being equated equally must be treated as the worst form of shudras and I have no feelings for them. They are the lowest sterta of human life and must be treated so.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Techy
Your stance is self contradictory. On the one hand you claim people who had everything would be pissed & OTOH you agree with my statement that they did not indulge in violence against Dalits in TN adding they had negligible influence . Confused , are we ? Don't worry . You aren't alone . That needn't prevent you from drawing conclusions.
Contradict to what? i never said any of these. You are assuming things because you put in some category to make sense.

Brahmin's would be pissed because they had lost all those social privileges assumed by the sacred texts (which they themselves wrote!).

I've seen you comment on the insecurity of the people's post , you quote on quite frequently. Its 4 times , the last I counted it , to 4 different people . No better way to hide one's own insecurity than accuse the other of being insecure . If that doesn't work , call out his caste. Offense after all is the best form of defence. Good gambit . After all there's nothing much at stake here.

Yeah people who make up fictional arguments are so confident :sick:. I have written what 10 replies and you found same line in four . Prove it insecure bro.

You never made any such comment on Dravidian politics eliminating Hindutva earlier. If that's the case how do you explain the BJP's rise in Karnataka? Btw - Dravidian politics as you put it , is prevalent only in TN.
Is that what you got ? In the entire history of party and a single term? :( Explain absence of Hindustva in all these states then.

If he were such an irrelevant figure , why are you even discussing him ? Admittedly
How many times dude. You brought it up and asking me why are we discussing!?

What has Savarkar's apology to the British got to do with his public ideology ?
Because a leader shouldn't put his personal interest above his ideology. It blurs the line between a follower and a leader. Thats why a kid like Bhagat singh is a legend.
 
My son turned 16 on 31st Dec this year and that required him to undergo janeo ceremony which is very sacred for Brahmins. My son was required to carry human shit on his head to become a Brahmin and then ask for guidance from the elders. He refused. I had to explain to him that every person is born a shudra and his karma makes him what he can be within our varna system. Brahmins are also called Dvijanma (twice born) as they are born shudra and they have to again become a brahmin by their Karma to be a Brahmin. The son of a Brahmin has to be reborn as a Brahmin by carrying human shit on his head like a shudra and ask for Gyaan from his guru to be accepted as a Brahmin. We are Bhardwaj gotra Pathak shashan Brahmins and we are Brahmin-kshatriyas.
I want to know and ask all those who believe in caste system to explain this ritual of Brahmins? if I can carry human shit on my head which I did when I had my janeo ceremony, what separates me from a shudra who carries human shit on his head? Should we give such elaborate coverage to new age defeatists who survive only on reservations and are losers of humanity. Such idiots who are incapable of being equated equally must be treated as the worst form of shudras and I have no feelings for them. They are the lowest sterta of human life and must be treated so.

You got that wrong.

Those who are NOT twice born i.e. initiated into Dharmic studies remains a shudra.

Even Kshtriyas and Vaishyas are Dvijanma i.e. twice born.
 
My son turned 16 on 31st Dec this year and that required him to undergo janeo ceremony which is very sacred for Brahmins. My son was required to carry human shit on his head to become a Brahmin and then ask for guidance from the elders. He refused. I had to explain to him that every person is born a shudra and his karma makes him what he can be within our varna system. Brahmins are also called Dvijanma (twice born) as they are born shudra and they have to again become a brahmin by their Karma to be a Brahmin. The son of a Brahmin has to be reborn as a Brahmin by carrying human shit on his head like a shudra and ask for Gyaan from his guru to be accepted as a Brahmin. We are Bhardwaj gotra Pathak shashan Brahmins and we are Brahmin-kshatriyas.
I want to know and ask all those who believe in caste system to explain this ritual of Brahmins? if I can carry human shit on my head which I did when I had my janeo ceremony, what separates me from a shudra who carries human shit on his head? Should we give such elaborate coverage to new age defeatists who survive only on reservations and are losers of humanity. Such idiots who are incapable of being equated equally must be treated as the worst form of shudras and I have no feelings for them. They are the lowest sterta of human life and must be treated so.

Sir , with all due respect , your son and you had to do it just once in your lifetime . That too as part of a ceremony.There are millions who're doing it everyday since generations to eke out a living . It is this very theory - a very patronising and condescending one - albeit unintentional on your part but which you're propagating which gets the goat of many Dalit activists particularly the radicals amongst them , which in turn is kindled time and again by the Left , liberal sections of society and preyed upon by opportunistic organised political parties , which gets manifested from time to time as events described in the OP.

It's precisely this display of Brahminism that spurs calls for destruction of all Hindu scriptures and Vedic liturgy and canons followed by symbolic attempts at observing Dalit pride which sets the tone for ritualising and conferring respectability on historical narratives of suspect & dubious origins all aimed towards one upmanship over their pet peeve - Brahmins & Brahminism , thus setting course for collision , conflict and re defining / reinforcing caste cleavages.

Religious rituals apart ,Manual scavenging is a blot on any civilised society . I'm sure you'd agree with me - The sooner we eradicate it the better .Let's not cloak it with a veneer of religious rituals to grant it respectability.They have their own symbolism and place best conducted in the privacy of one's home.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ManavantraTruti
Sir , with all due respect , your son and you had to do it just once in your lifetime . That too as part of a ceremony.There are millions who're doing it everyday since generations to eke out a living . It is this very theory - a very patronising and condescending one - albeit unintentional on your part but which you're propagating which gets the goat of many Dalit activists particularly the radicals amongst them , which in turn is kindled time and again by the Left , liberal sections of society and preyed upon by opportunistic organised political parties , which gets manifested from time to time as events described in the OP.

It's precisely this display of Brahminism that spurs calls for destruction of all Hindu scriptures and Vedic liturgy and canons followed by symbolic attempts at observing Dalit pride which sets the tone for ritualising and conferring respectability on historical narratives of suspect & dubious origins all aimed towards one upmanship over their pet peeve - Brahmins & Brahminism , thus setting course for collision , conflict and re defining / reinforcing caste cleavages.

Religious rituals apart ,Manual scavenging is a blot on any civilised society . I'm sure you'd agree with me - The sooner we eradicate it the better .Let's not cloak it with a veneer of religious rituals to grant it respectability.They have their own symbolism and place best conducted in the privacy of one's home.

Also a Shudra is not the same as a Dalit.

Ancient India did not have the concept of a "JAIL". The punishment of choice for a social crime was excommunication i.e throwing him out of society and not acknowledging him as part of society. Its the same as saying he is not fit for living in hindu society.

Such "out castes" lived on the edges of society (e.g. village) and survived on doing work that nobody else in the village did. i.e manual scavenging, skinning dead animals etc. They became the "dalits".


In other words, they were "Convicts" in Indian society. And their children became children of convicts.

What was missing was the concept of "ghar wapsi" for the children of such outcastes. Maybe they did and that system just got lost in the events of history.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: _Anonymous_
Status
Not open for further replies.