Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

[AbRaj]

@A Person @Picdelamirand-oil

I'm sure this is a problem for France as well, in case some Rafales and Mirages are relocated to Turkey. Never mind the fact that the Turks already know everything there is to know about the F-35 already.

Turkey allows Qatar to deploy 36 warplanes, 250 personnel for training purposes - Türkiye News

The Technical Regulation on the Deployment of Qatar Military Aircraft Personnel in Turkey signed between Ankara and Doha has been submitted to the parliament. Accordingly, Qatari fighter pilots will receive their training in Turkey, and Qatar will be able to keep 250 military personnel and 36...

www.hurriyetdailynews.com

A squadron each of Rafale and M2000 and Few F15 and EFTs, C17, C130 too.

Katar ile bir konuşulacak anlaşma daha!

Sözcü Gazetesi'nden Emin Özgönül'ün haberine kadar Türkiye ile Katar aralarında yapılan anlaşma ve iş birliklerine yenisi eklendi.

www.haberyildizi.com

Qater to Arabs is what Pakistan to India or Turkey to Europe except that it’s filthy rich

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

@A Person @Picdelamirand-oil

I'm sure this is a problem for France as well, in case some Rafales and Mirages are relocated to Turkey. Never mind the fact that the Turks already know everything there is to know about the F-35 already.

Turkey allows Qatar to deploy 36 warplanes, 250 personnel for training purposes - Türkiye News

The Technical Regulation on the Deployment of Qatar Military Aircraft Personnel in Turkey signed between Ankara and Doha has been submitted to the parliament. Accordingly, Qatari fighter pilots will receive their training in Turkey, and Qatar will be able to keep 250 military personnel and 36...

www.hurriyetdailynews.com

The risk is accepted when the contract is signed. You can't promise total independence from the client, control his every move "American style", and criticise Americans for always holding a leash.

Besides, Turkey is an ally, NATO obliges. But there are still protective measures:

If the fact of having 36 fighters allowed them to be copied... how can I put it, Iran would have a fleet of i14 tomcats and Turkey would have t16 viper kebabs.

 

[Hydra]

Rafale jets deal ‘middleman’ paid in ‘secret commissions’: French report

In the third and final part of its investigation into the Rafale deal, Mediapart, a French online journal claimed that the payments to Gupta were channelled through offshore accounts and shell companies, using inflated invoices for software consulting. Gupta’s name figures in the AgustaWestland...

www.hindustantimes.com

According to the journal, the bulk of the payments were made before 2013. “According to an accounts spreadsheet belonging to Sushen Gupta, an entity called simply “D”, which is a code he regularly used to designate Dassault, paid 14.6 million euros to Interdev in Singapore over the period 2004-2013,” the report said. It said Interdev was a shell company with no real activity, and administered by a straw man for the Gupta family.

 

[randomradio]

The risk is accepted when the contract is signed. You can't promise total independence from the client, control his every move "American style", and criticise Americans for always holding a leash.

Besides, Turkey is an ally, NATO obliges. But there are still protective measures:

If the fact of having 36 fighters allowed them to be copied... how can I put it, Iran would have a fleet of i14 tomcats and Turkey would have t16 viper kebabs.

It's a terrible risk though. The China factor is quite strong in that country.

 

[Saaho]

The risk is accepted when the contract is signed. You can't promise total independence from the client, control his every move "American style", and criticise Americans for always holding a leash.

Besides, Turkey is an ally, NATO obliges. But there are still protective measures:

If the fact of having 36 fighters allowed them to be copied... how can I put it, Iran would have a fleet of i14 tomcats and Turkey would have t16 viper kebabs.

I don't think know how to manufacturing can be copied that easily. Its the capabilities and vulnerabilities that will be know. But then when you export your jet, you can be sure that its capabilities and vulnerabilities will be known to quite a few.

For that matter IAF knows a lot about those of F-16. Does not make F-16 any less of a potent platform for PAF. Latest skirmish is the proof. IAF caught pants down flying outdated birds and getting shot down.

 

[randomradio]

@vstol Jockey

According to the Swiss competition, the Rafale doesn't compete with the F-35 in terms of survivability. But we had assumed that already. My hope was the F4.2 will be able to compete with the J-20A/B, at least until the time AMCA becomes available. Personally, I had assumed that the most dangerous version called J-20C by the media will become available only after 2025. So, in theory, the J-20B with limited LO capabilities and non-supercruising engines was not more competitive than the supercruise capable Rafale F4.2 with active cancellation.

J-20A = AL-31FM2/WS-10B engine
J-20B = WS-10C with LO
J-20C = WS-15 LO and supercruise

The expectation was if the F4.2 was competitive with J-20A/B, then we could maintian some parity until J-20C matured around 2030-35, and then the AMCA would step in from that point, ie post 2035. But now it looks like the J-20C with the WS-15 will soon enter production, if it hasn't already. FWIW, we can now assume that China's fighter jet engine troubles are officially over.

AMCA Mk1 will obviously not be operationally ready until 2035 at the minimum. AMCA Mk2 will take up to 2040 to deliver some tangible capability. So the delay from now until 2035 is far too long for us to rely on it.

We are also facing political headwinds from Russia due to QUAD. So it's unlikely that we can depend on the Su-57 either. What was a decent choice even last year doesn't seem to be a viable option anymore.

Personally, I think without 2 squadrons of next gen aircraft ordered before 2025 for delivery before 2030, we are screwed. It could be the F-35 with Growth Option 1.0 or MSA or the Su-57 itself or something else, but I think the decision has to be taken quickly or we won't be able to compete with the Chinese. The H-20 by itself is gonna change the game a lot, never mind the fact that the Chinese will successfully transition into next gen fighters in less than 2 years from now.

So what do you think our options are?

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

@vstol Jockey

According to the Swiss competition, the Rafale doesn't compete with the F-35 in terms of survivability. But we had assumed that already. My hope was the F4.2 will be able to compete with the J-20A/B, at least until the time AMCA becomes available. Personally, I had assumed that the most dangerous version called J-20C by the media will become available only after 2025. So, in theory, the J-20B with limited LO capabilities and non-supercruising engines was not more competitive than the supercruise capable Rafale F4.2 with active cancellation.

J-20A = AL-31FM2/WS-10B engine
J-20B = WS-10C with LO
J-20C = WS-15 LO and supercruise

The expectation was if the F4.2 was competitive with J-20A/B, then we could maintian some parity until J-20C matured around 2030-35, and then the AMCA would step in from that point, ie post 2035. But now it looks like the J-20C with the WS-15 will soon enter production, if it hasn't already. FWIW, we can now assume that China's fighter jet engine troubles are officially over.

AMCA Mk1 will obviously not be operationally ready until 2035 at the minimum. AMCA Mk2 will take up to 2040 to deliver some tangible capability. So the delay from now until 2035 is far too long for us to rely on it.

We are also facing political headwinds from Russia due to QUAD. So it's unlikely that we can depend on the Su-57 either. What was a decent choice even last year doesn't seem to be a viable option anymore.

Personally, I think without 2 squadrons of next gen aircraft ordered before 2025 for delivery before 2030, we are screwed. It could be the F-35 with Growth Option 1.0 or MSA or the Su-57 itself or something else, but I think the decision has to be taken quickly or we won't be able to compete with the Chinese. The H-20 by itself is gonna change the game a lot, never mind the fact that the Chinese will successfully transition into next gen fighters in less than 2 years from now.

So what do you think our options are?

Sir , How are you able to assess J 20 and Chinese Engines , I mean while sitting in India

Secondly with S 400 coming , We can simply rule out F 35

 

[randomradio]

Sir , How are you able to assess J 20 and Chinese Engines , I mean while sitting in India

It's simple really. I trust some of the Chinese sources and also their capability to create something that's expected to match what the US did back in the early 2000s all the way today.

Due to the size of our geography, supercruise is a very important capability. And if the Chinese are saying the new engine will be capable of supercruise, then it's enough to believe them.

Secondly with S 400 coming , We can simply rule out F 35

I doubt it's going to be a problem.

The F-35 is not the answer for the supercruise-capable J-20 threat anyway. But we need whatever we can get between 2025 and 2035. At least for a deterrent effect. The Rafale by itself won't be enough.

 

[Hydra]

@vstol Jockey

According to the Swiss competition, the Rafale doesn't compete with the F-35 in terms of survivability. But we had assumed that already. My hope was the F4.2 will be able to compete with the J-20A/B, at least until the time AMCA becomes available. Personally, I had assumed that the most dangerous version called J-20C by the media will become available only after 2025. So, in theory, the J-20B with limited LO capabilities and non-supercruising engines was not more competitive than the supercruise capable Rafale F4.2 with active cancellation.

J-20A = AL-31FM2/WS-10B engine
J-20B = WS-10C with LO
J-20C = WS-15 LO and supercruise

The expectation was if the F4.2 was competitive with J-20A/B, then we could maintian some parity until J-20C matured around 2030-35, and then the AMCA would step in from that point, ie post 2035. But now it looks like the J-20C with the WS-15 will soon enter production, if it hasn't already. FWIW, we can now assume that China's fighter jet engine troubles are officially over.

AMCA Mk1 will obviously not be operationally ready until 2035 at the minimum. AMCA Mk2 will take up to 2040 to deliver some tangible capability. So the delay from now until 2035 is far too long for us to rely on it.

We are also facing political headwinds from Russia due to QUAD. So it's unlikely that we can depend on the Su-57 either. What was a decent choice even last year doesn't seem to be a viable option anymore.

Personally, I think without 2 squadrons of next gen aircraft ordered before 2025 for delivery before 2030, we are screwed. It could be the F-35 with Growth Option 1.0 or MSA or the Su-57 itself or something else, but I think the decision has to be taken quickly or we won't be able to compete with the Chinese. The H-20 by itself is gonna change the game a lot, never mind the fact that the Chinese will successfully transition into next gen fighters in less than 2 years from now.

So what do you think our options are?

Glad to hear thae someone had recognised the potency of Bomber. Still we can pursue a bomber option, the ucav design can be uprated to a manned long ranged flying wing.

Sir , How are you able to assess J 20 and Chinese Engines , I mean while sitting in India

This is a pseudo security feeling poured in to our mind by so called experts in blogs & media.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

It's simple really. I trust some of the Chinese sources and also their capability to create something that's expected to match what the US did back in the early 2000s all the way today.

Due to the size of our geography, supercruise is a very important capability. And if the Chinese are saying the new engine will be capable of supercruise, then it's enough to believe them.



I doubt it's going to be a problem.

The F-35 is not the answer for the supercruise-capable J-20 threat anyway. But we need whatever we can get between 2025 and 2035. At least for a deterrent effect. The Rafale by itself won't be enough.

I am sure that not only India but also US
Russia, Japan , Taiwan , Vietnam , and other Asian countries are keen to know the true capabilities of J 20

There must be some intelligence cooperation on this

Between Rafale F4 and Su 57 , which is better for India

 

[Hydra]

I am sure that not only India but also US
Russia, Japan , Taiwan , Vietnam , and other Asian countries are keen to know the true capabilities of J 20

There must be some intelligence cooperation on this

Between Rafale F4 and Su 57 , which is better for India

If you want su57,stop spending money on super sukhoi and directly induct su57. Personal opinion.

 

[vstol Jockey]

@vstol Jockey

According to the Swiss competition, the Rafale doesn't compete with the F-35 in terms of survivability. But we had assumed that already. My hope was the F4.2 will be able to compete with the J-20A/B, at least until the time AMCA becomes available. Personally, I had assumed that the most dangerous version called J-20C by the media will become available only after 2025. So, in theory, the J-20B with limited LO capabilities and non-supercruising engines was not more competitive than the supercruise capable Rafale F4.2 with active cancellation.

J-20A = AL-31FM2/WS-10B engine
J-20B = WS-10C with LO
J-20C = WS-15 LO and supercruise

The expectation was if the F4.2 was competitive with J-20A/B, then we could maintian some parity until J-20C matured around 2030-35, and then the AMCA would step in from that point, ie post 2035. But now it looks like the J-20C with the WS-15 will soon enter production, if it hasn't already. FWIW, we can now assume that China's fighter jet engine troubles are officially over.

AMCA Mk1 will obviously not be operationally ready until 2035 at the minimum. AMCA Mk2 will take up to 2040 to deliver some tangible capability. So the delay from now until 2035 is far too long for us to rely on it.

We are also facing political headwinds from Russia due to QUAD. So it's unlikely that we can depend on the Su-57 either. What was a decent choice even last year doesn't seem to be a viable option anymore.

Personally, I think without 2 squadrons of next gen aircraft ordered before 2025 for delivery before 2030, we are screwed. It could be the F-35 with Growth Option 1.0 or MSA or the Su-57 itself or something else, but I think the decision has to be taken quickly or we won't be able to compete with the Chinese. The H-20 by itself is gonna change the game a lot, never mind the fact that the Chinese will successfully transition into next gen fighters in less than 2 years from now.

So what do you think our options are?

There are many advantages which Rafale has over chinese J-20 or for that matter any stealth fighter. While you have written about the radar stealth of J-20, you have forgotten that SPECTRA has one of the best passive targeting capability. A stealth fighter without very good IRST and equally capable IR missile, will always be at a disadvantage with an aircraft like Rafale. J-20 will need to use its radar to be able to engage any fighter aircraft. And once you transmit, Rafale will pick tou out and target you. You need to remember that with spectra in full war mode, even J-20 with best of AESA will not be able to pick up Rafale till J-20 reaches the engagement envelope of MICA-IR.
Chinese engines do not have the kind of cooling channels for engines the way Rafale has. J-20s big engines will make it an easy pick up and target by Rafale. Next we have in line is super sukhoi upgrade. which will make SU-30MKI far more capable than what it is today. we have already seen what happened on 27th feb when 4 missiles were fired at Avenger formation and all of them missed.
Paper capabilities have very little to do when it comes to actual combat.

 

[_Anonymous_]

I've bookmarked this post ( #3771 ) for the ages. I humbly urge the rest of the members to do the same . Such pearls of wisdom aren't dispensed daily.

One day & that day will come , we'd look back on this post & laud the member's genius.

When queried how did he manage such a prophecy he'd likely quip - Like all great men I seem to benefit from being seated on the shoulders of giants thus seeing farther .

Pls don't ask me to name the giant here .

 

[Bon Plan]

I wonder if Finland is considering hypersonic weapons for the future. If so, then Rafale would be in a better position than F-35 regarding this detail.

Why ?

 

[Bon Plan]

@Picdelamirand-oil
@Bon Plan
@randomradio

Sir , Right now Pakistanis are having a very good look at Qatari Rafales

Assuming that Pakistan gets complete
Access to Spectra and RBE 2 AESA
How will it Affect IAF future operations

1) It is not in the Qatar interest to give too many details to some untrustable countries. A leak of informations may be used by some potential futur ennemy. As for now they only have a dozen of M2000 and Rafale to protect them, so it is a high end tool for Qatar.
2) You can be sure France is using it's own electronic big ears so as to sniff the electronic signals used during this exercise. We can retaliate by stopping some spare parts deliveries....
3) the data base used by Indian and Qatar Spectra and RBE2 are for sure not the same. Qatar purchase a toy, without having many requirements on the quality of the system (they are bedouins after all). India is in a perpetual state of war, with a knowledged part of the population. India requirement level is higher, so I think the Rafale delivered to Indian are the most potent of all.

Stand corrected. Rafale can only win if there is no F-35 offering

Swiss pick Lockheed Martin's F-35A as next fighter jet

Switzerland's government has chosen Lockheed Martin's F-35A Lightning II as its next-generation fighter plane, it said on Wednesday, a move that will likely trigger another referendum over the contract.

www.reuters.com

https://twitter.com/x/status/1410242151087325190

This bid is all but clear.
Rafale was said to be winner 3 weeks before end of june. And after the Joe Biden visit, it was F35 !
US made high pressure on Switzerland. Maybe on bank secrecy, or dollard uses.

 

[randomradio]

Between Rafale F4 and Su 57 , which is better for India

We need both. As you already know, we need 200+ Rafales, this won't change anytime soon.

Right now the Chinese seem to have plans to induct 2-4 regiments for each command. That's a minimum of 24 jets each. So we may end up facing as many as 48-96 J-20Bs in just the next 2 years. Possibly even the end of next year. The J-20Cs could double that number by 2025 or 2026. So we could be looking at a fleet of at least 100 J-20s along the Indian border in just the next 4-5 years, and another 100 as reserves connected to other commands which can be brought in to make up for attrition.

In order to counter such a force, the Rafale+MKI combo won't be enough, we will need the Rafale+Su-57 combo, or similar. For this purpose, 40 Su-57s will be more than enough. This will give us two supercruisers, and an active stealth + passive stealth combo. If the 36+40 Rafale+Su-57 combo generates a kill ratio of 2:1 against the J-20C until 2035, it will serve our needs. Furthermore, the Su-57 will be able to work in combination with the LCA Mk2 as well, but it's unlikely to be as efficient due to the lack of supercruise. If not the Su-57, it's also possible with the F-35.

Although current levels of passive stealth on its own will become outdated in the long term, due to advances in radar tech, but for the next 15 years, it's going to be very important.

 

[randomradio]

There are many advantages which Rafale has over chinese J-20 or for that matter any stealth fighter. While you have written about the radar stealth of J-20, you have forgotten that SPECTRA has one of the best passive targeting capability. A stealth fighter without very good IRST and equally capable IR missile, will always be at a disadvantage with an aircraft like Rafale. J-20 will need to use its radar to be able to engage any fighter aircraft. And once you transmit, Rafale will pick tou out and target you. You need to remember that with spectra in full war mode, even J-20 with best of AESA will not be able to pick up Rafale till J-20 reaches the engagement envelope of MICA-IR.
Chinese engines do not have the kind of cooling channels for engines the way Rafale has. J-20s big engines will make it an easy pick up and target by Rafale. Next we have in line is super sukhoi upgrade. which will make SU-30MKI far more capable than what it is today. we have already seen what happened on 27th feb when 4 missiles were fired at Avenger formation and all of them missed.
Paper capabilities have very little to do when it comes to actual combat.

Right now, the Rafale's passive targeting capabilities are restricted to an individual aircraft. The Rafale lacks a low latency, high speed datalink, which is a massive drawback. So, while the F3R is capable of passive targeting to a certain extent, it doesn't have all the other capabilities needed. For example, TRAGEDAC and INCAS are yet to be implemented, which will happen on the F4.1/4.2. I incorrectly assumed the TRAGEDAC will give the Rafale F4.2 the ability to perform wide area multilateration, but that's impossible with the currently planned set up. All it can perform is correlation and triangulation for range discovery, which by itself is good, but not enough against a stealth threat, and it's unlikely to be a weapons quality track against a stealth target. It's likely more suited for ground targeting or against older jets. I mean, a stealth threat can simply stop emitting and disappear at any time.

AFAIK, the F3R doesn't carry an atomic clock, so you can't put a multiship formation on the same time base. Obviously, no discreet datalink means no high speed transfer of large volumes of data. So, at best, the F3R will only be able to transfer the passive targeting data to another jet in the fleet, and possibly that's only angle and bearing. Only the implementation of TRAGEDAC and INCAS should allow multiship passive targeting through triangulation, which is expected only in the near future. Rafale's passive capabilities in its current form is being overestimated.

But all of this is only if the J-20 is emitting. If a two-ship formation of J-20s work in a sensor-shooter loop, then I doubt the passive J-20 will ever enter the detection range of the Rafale from the front, let alone the sides or the back. And with its ability to supercruise, it will easily enter within its BVR missile envelope without alerting the Rafale.

Then there's DEDIRA. Although the active cancellation concept is sound and good, we do not know if it has been fully implemented on the F3R. Worst case, it's only meant for French Rafales at this time, not for export Rafales. So we may need the F4.1/4.2 to see it in its full glory. The 40% difference in technical points shouldn't have been as wide in Switzerland if DEDIRA was implemented on the version marketed to them, they likely tested the same version we are operating today. So it's unlikely the J-20 will have any issues dealing with the Rafale F3R if this is the case.

In the active mode, the Rafale is unlikely to pick up the J-20 on its own. And without a discrete datalink, it's unlikely to implement a multistatic radar capability with multiship formations either.

The only thing the Rafale can do is defeat an incoming missile. But that's obviously not enough.

 

[Hydra]

Although current levels of passive stealth on its own will become outdated in the long term, due to advances in radar tech, but for the next 15 years, it's going to be very important.

Our AMCA will not see in another 10-15 years for sure. Then how relevant will be AMCA after 15 years? Just as irrelevant like current LCA Mk1?

 

[vstol Jockey]

Right now, the Rafale's passive targeting capabilities are restricted to an individual aircraft. The Rafale lacks a low latency, high speed datalink, which is a massive drawback. So, while the F3R is capable of passive targeting to a certain extent, it doesn't have all the other capabilities needed. For example, TRAGEDAC and INCAS are yet to be implemented, which will happen on the F4.1/4.2. I incorrectly assumed the TRAGEDAC will give the Rafale F4.2 the ability to perform wide area multilateration, but that's impossible with the currently planned set up. All it can perform is correlation and triangulation for range discovery, which by itself is good, but not enough against a stealth threat, and it's unlikely to be a weapons quality track against a stealth target. It's likely more suited for ground targeting or against older jets. I mean, a stealth threat can simply stop emitting and disappear at any time.

AFAIK, the F3R doesn't carry an atomic clock, so you can't put a multiship formation on the same time base. Obviously, no discreet datalink means no high speed transfer of large volumes of data. So, at best, the F3R will only be able to transfer the passive targeting data to another jet in the fleet, and possibly that's only angle and bearing. Only the implementation of TRAGEDAC and INCAS should allow multiship passive targeting through triangulation, which is expected only in the near future. Rafale's passive capabilities in its current form is being overestimated.

But all of this is only if the J-20 is emitting. If a two-ship formation of J-20s work in a sensor-shooter loop, then I doubt the passive J-20 will ever enter the detection range of the Rafale from the front, let alone the sides or the back. And with its ability to supercruise, it will easily enter within its BVR missile envelope without alerting the Rafale.

Then there's DEDIRA. Although the active cancellation concept is sound and good, we do not know if it has been fully implemented on the F3R. Worst case, it's only meant for French Rafales at this time, not for export Rafales. So we may need the F4.1/4.2 to see it in its full glory. The 40% difference in technical points shouldn't have been as wide in Switzerland if DEDIRA was implemented on the version marketed to them, they likely tested the same version we are operating today. So it's unlikely the J-20 will have any issues dealing with the Rafale F3R if this is the case.

In the active mode, the Rafale is unlikely to pick up the J-20 on its own. And without a discrete datalink, it's unlikely to implement a multistatic radar capability with multiship formations either.

The only thing the Rafale can do is defeat an incoming missile. But that's obviously not enough.

you seem to be giving J-20C far better capabilities than what it posses. do you think they have superior tech compared to even French?

 

[randomradio]

Our AMCA will not see in another 10-15 years for sure. Then how relevant will be AMCA after 15 years? Just as irrelevant like current LCA Mk1?

AMCA will be relevant for its time in the Mk2 form.