Sukhoi Su-30MKI
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
There is this belief that 4+ gen fighters can't take on 5th gen fighters at all. I've always said that MKI UPG. will be able to counter Chinese VLO fighters and debated with @randomradio & @Parthu before regarding this topic.
Now a very interesting thing drops out from Pentagon's annual report. As per official Pentagon report, F-15 EX has successfully countered 5th gen fighters in test. Look at this:
And read this whole report: F-15EX Nails Pentagon Test Campaign, Survivability Concerns Remain
Now, what does F-15EX countering VLO mean for us? Simply, if USAF, the biggest user of VLO jets is praising and admitting that F-15EX successfully countered VLO jets in test then our MKI will do that too. MKI UPG. will have bigger/better sensors than even the EX and equally good sensor fusion plus it'll also work with CCAs.
All-in-all, the above report bodes quite well for our future.
Now a very interesting thing drops out from Pentagon's annual report. As per official Pentagon report, F-15 EX has successfully countered 5th gen fighters in test. Look at this:
And read this whole report: F-15EX Nails Pentagon Test Campaign, Survivability Concerns Remain
Now, what does F-15EX countering VLO mean for us? Simply, if USAF, the biggest user of VLO jets is praising and admitting that F-15EX successfully countered VLO jets in test then our MKI will do that too. MKI UPG. will have bigger/better sensors than even the EX and equally good sensor fusion plus it'll also work with CCAs.
All-in-all, the above report bodes quite well for our future.
I read the report. It just says EPAWSS performed well against threat radars. Maybe it could passively locate modern radars enough to cue weapons. That's about it.
Plus "surrogate" fifth gen aircraft simply means 4th gen jets pretending to be 5th gen. It doesn't mean the F-15 could defeat VLO.
"Surrogate" 5th gen adversary aircraft could definitely mean that or F-35 mimicking Su-57s/J-20s. Now F-35As have been part of aggressors too for sometime.
Look at this report: With a new unit and F-35s, US Air Force 'aggressors' are trying to replicate the latest threat posed by China.
Some quotes:
F-15E vs F-35
Another quote:
So gone are the days of ONLY F-16s mimicking Su-57s. Now PLAAF being their primary threat, F-35A aggressors are mimicking J-20s as Gen. Mark Kelly alluded as far back from 2022.
Look at this image from the same article:
F-15s have been training against such "surrogate" 5th gen adversary jets since long.
Anyways, here is the actual screenshot of the real report:
In my opinion, the surrogate 5th gen adversary aircraft is nothing but F-35A aggressor. But if you believe that it was an F-16 mimicking a 5th gen then both Gen. Mark Kelly and I politely disagree
"Surrogate" 5th gen adversary aircraft could definitely mean that or F-35 mimicking Su-57s/J-20s. Now F-35As have been part of aggressors too for sometime.
Look at this report: With a new unit and F-35s, US Air Force 'aggressors' are trying to replicate the latest threat posed by China.
Some quotes:
F-15E vs F-35
Another quote:
So gone are the days of ONLY F-16s mimicking Su-57s. Now PLAAF being their primary threat, F-35A aggressors are mimicking J-20s as Gen. Mark Kelly alluded as far back from 2022.
Look at this image from the same article:
View attachment 40189
F-15s have been training against such "surrogate" 5th gen adversary jets since long.
Anyways, here is the actual screenshot of the real report:
View attachment 40190
In my opinion, the surrogate 5th gen adversary aircraft is nothing but F-35A aggressor. But if you believe that it was an F-16 mimicking a 5th gen then both Gen. Mark Kelly and I politely disagree
F-35 is not a surrogate 5th gen, it's 5th gen itself. An F-35 replicating a J-20 is something else.
F-35 is not a surrogate 5th gen as it's a real 5th gen is true but then it can be & is a surrogate "adversary" 5th gen for real as part of 65 Aggressors as it mimicks the RCS of J-20 there. As Gen. Mark Kelly said that from 2022 onwards they are mimicking the RCS of a real enemy 5th gen otherwise what's the point!
The threats which F-15EX defeated mimicked the RCS of adversary 5th gen jets like J-20/Su-57 etc. That in itself is a testimony that even an advance 4th gen fighter like F-15EX can successfully counter 5th gen jets using its onboard and off-board sensors.
@Parthu What's your take on this Pentagon report?
A surrogate only means not the real thing. Like a T-37 can act as a surrogate F-22 during dogfight training and the pilot will fly it like it's a real F-22.
The idea behind it is for the F-15 to see how the F-16 behaves at long distance when the F-16 is pretending to be an F-35 or J-20 so the F-15 pilot now knows what that looks like because the F-16 is visible.
There's nothing special about the report. It just says the aircraft's avionics work how they expect it to.
As per the report F-15EX was able to deploy its weapons whilst remaining survivival against "surrogate" adversary 5th gen jets(mimicking RCS of J-20/Su-57). That is a big thing in my opinion. But anyways, let's agree to disagree
As per the report F-15EX was able to deploy its weapons whilst remaining survivival against "surrogate" adversary 5th gen jets(mimicking RCS of J-20/Su-57). That is a big thing in my opinion. But anyways, let's agree to disagree
Yeah, but that's a different exercise, where they tested EPAWSS for a passive launch.
Basically there were two different tests. In one test, they operated the EPAWSS. And the second test saw the F-15EX defeat 4th gen jets that flew using the flight profiles of 5th gen jets, not RCS. That's about it. Nothing special happened that the Europeans had not done 10 years ago, or even the USN with their SH B3s. This is just the USAF catching up with their equivalent.
But sure, we can do that.
This report is talking about operational effectiveness of whole F-15EX aircraft rather than just its EW suite(EPAWSS) against dealing with adversary VLO jets:
The EPAWSS report is separate from this report. Just see what this report says: "Against the level of threat tested, the F-15EX is operationally effective in all its air-superiority roles, including defensive and offensive counter-air against surrogate fifth-generation adversary aircraft......."
^^Here, they're reporting the effectiveness of F-15EX against enemy 5th gen in both OCA & DCA rather than just talking about EPAWSS.
As explained, there were two different tests. One was for EPAWSS, and it was used against 4th and 5th gen aircraft, mainly their radars.
The second one was for the F-15EX and it was tested against a 4th gen jet like the F-16, not the F-22 or F-35. So it qualified for OCA and DCA against a 4th gen jet. There was no 5th gen jet involved here, hence "surrogate." If it was tested against an actual 5th gen, then they wouldn't use the word "surrogate."
A surrogate jet is a replacement for another jet.
The first time a surrogate jet was used in training was in 1969 by Topgun, where an A-4, an inferior jet, pretended to be a Mig-17.
@Speedster1, @_Anonymous_
Full 360° spherical coverage based MAWS confirmed for Su-30MKI by Dr. Das himself @5:36 mark:
Full 360° spherical coverage based MAWS confirmed for Su-30MKI by Dr. Das himself @5:36 mark:
Given the size of that radar, the volume of data coming into the cockpit (targets tracked, targets locked-on) should be substantial. We'd better go for a single LAD to improve data presentation/situational awareness for MKI pilots. Pvt companies like Samtel, Medha, etc have multiple options that can be considered. Hope we don't have to stick to the standard dual display config as seen on Su-35, J-16, etc.
Dual displays are more of a fail safe option against a single Large Area Display. However, let's wait for more info to come out regarding UPG(as it's still a work in progress) to know the exact details.
He doesn't say anything about it being internally mounted though. The podded version is supposed to provide 360 deg too. The thing to note is there are 4 sensors on the table. So a podded system or an aircraft with a single fin will require 4 sensors for 360 deg coverage, whereas an internally mounted system for a twin fin aircraft needs 6.
There are two other interesting things of note. LCA Mk2 won't carry EA antennas internally, it will come via podded measures. But the IRST will provide 360 deg coverage as it spins, and it's chin-mounted, although models show a fixed nose-mounted system.
There's no real difference though. But we gotta wait and see what the IAF wants.
Mk2 was supposed to get DARE's UEWS internal suite, derivatives of which are already on the Jag and MiG-29UPG. The podded jammer config was earlier meant only for Mk1A due to obvious space constraints. Likewise, the podded IRST may be Mk1A specific while Mk2 will get the nose mounted version.
We need something larger than the current MFD-55/66 at the very least. And since LCA Mk2 is already getting a nifty LAD, it'd be a shame for MKI to not get it.
Unless of course, there are some technical constraints on Russian birds that make dual screens unavoidable.
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