the FGFA monies might be diverted to the f-35 considering the cost of the f-35. dont forget the up coming AMCA and with the French getting involved in the Kaveri platform, monies need to go to AMCA at a rapid pace as well. something needs to give.
IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi
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the FGFA monies might be diverted to the f-35 considering the cost of the f-35. dont forget the up coming AMCA and with the French getting involved in the Kaveri platform, monies need to go to AMCA at a rapid pace as well. something needs to give.
Considering that Russia has given ToT for Su30 including the engine manufacturing from raw materials (which very few countries ever give), I wonder why FGFA is in the docks. Is FGFA progress going on behind the curtains?
Buying F35 is highly imprudent for several reasons:
1) F35 is hopeless in maneuvering. The single large engine of 190kN has made it a bulky/thick plane and hampered maneuverability badly. F22 was far better in maneuvering
2) There is really very little use of fifth generation fighters as the stealth will be compromised upon using external stores whereas without using external stores, there can be very little payload internally. So, except for missions like air superiority, stealth bombing of select few high value targets, the planes are not usable for general purpose in stealth mode.
3) Without ToT, it will remain mostly useless during war - either due to too small quantity or lack of spare parts
4) The money spent on imports without any gain in technology is pretty much useless and diverts precious resources (forex) away from other indigenous manufacturing
Buying F35 is highly imprudent for several reasons:
1) F35 is hopeless in maneuvering. The single large engine of 190kN has made it a bulky/thick plane and hampered maneuverability badly. F22 was far better in maneuvering
2) There is really very little use of fifth generation fighters as the stealth will be compromised upon using external stores whereas without using external stores, there can be very little payload internally. So, except for missions like air superiority, stealth bombing of select few high value targets, the planes are not usable for general purpose in stealth mode.
3) Without ToT, it will remain mostly useless during war - either due to too small quantity or lack of spare parts
4) The money spent on imports without any gain in technology is pretty much useless and diverts precious resources (forex) away from other indigenous manufacturing
Weren't you saying earlier that the IAF is only interested in air superiority platforms? The JSF isn't one, since it was designed to be the strike complement to the F-22.
The FGFA is highly delayed and will not be available for at least 8-10 years. In case the IAF goes for the F-35, it will be signed much quicker than a tender deal.
The govt is really pressuring the IAF to buy the F-16 because they want to clinch a strategic partnership with the Americans. The IAF is not interested in the F-16, the variant the Americans are offering has far inferior air superiority capability and flight performance compared to the F-35. So if the choice is between the F-16 and F-35, the F-35 is the obvious option.
Another problem is any SE or TE MII can only be initiated after the 2019 elections and from the start of the contest to the time a tender is signed could take a minimum of 5 years and the first delivery is a minimum of 8 years away. The IAF's objective is to get replacement aircraft quickly, and a tender is anything but quick. The Americans are not prepared to participate in a tender to sell the F-35 to India, too many strong foreign competitors here, so the only way to get it is through the FMS procedure. And unlike a tender which could take as long as 8 years, an FMS deal could be signed within a year, like they did with Rafale GTG, and also cut out potential delays beyond the 8 year-tender cycle. The success of the Rafale GTG may have played an enormous part in formulating the IAF's next move. From the govt's PoV as well, it's easier for them to justify a F-35 GTG versus a F-16 GTG. Our DPP process allows us to go for strategic partnerships for 'unique' weapons from the bureaucratic angle, so the political fallout is zero.
And I doubt the numbers will be as high as 126 without a production deal. It may start off as the Rafale GTG did, with 30-40 jets.
With China making the J-20 operational much earlier than what the IAF has probably planned for, and with FGFA still in limbo, the F-35 may be IAF's best bet to get a SE fighter with very little hiccups and still get an air superiority capability better than the F-16 B70.
IMHO, I think the J-20 has the IAF spooked. The IAF has always operated superior aircraft compared to the Chinese and they don't want to lose that advantage at the operational level. And even if we sit here claiming the Rafale is an F-35 equivalent, it does not have actual value when it comes to propaganda. So unless the Rafale does not duplicate the F-22's or F-35's results publicly, the Chinese will gain a very significant advantage at the psychological level among our politicians and diplomats and that's very dangerous for India. So even 2 squadrons of the F-35 will help us survive the next 10 years.
The F-35 Block 1 engine upgrade will bring it to about 210KN.
This is what wins wars.
It all depends on how well you support your fleet through contracts. Even indigenous aircraft are useless if you don't sign support contracts with the manufacturer.
I agree with this. But there's stuff to be gained through offsets, including indigenous manufacturing.
China’s fifth-gen fighter jet now in operation; India’s plans with Russia still stuck
China may have operationalised its new fifth generation fighter aircraft – the only nation in the world other than US with this capability. On the other hand, Indo-Russian plans for an advanced counter to this remain uncertain, with the decision to go ahead now at the doorstep of the top echelons of government.
The J-20 ‘Black Eagle’ fighter jet has been flying since 2011, with China officially announcing its entry into combat service last week, albeit with an older engine that will reduce performance. In contrast, India and Russia have not been able to move ahead on signing a joint development plan for a new fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), that is being negotiated since 2010.
Sources have told ThePrint that despite some progress seen in the first two years of the BJP government when the project was brought back to the table in cross-governmental discussions, talks have hit a major roadblock that can only be resolved with the direct intervention of the Prime Minister’s Office (PMO).
At one end is the Indian Air Force, which has expressed certain reservations on the performance characteristics of the proposed new fighter jet, including its stealth capabilities, the jet engine technology, and weapons package.
The biggest constraint, however, appears to be a lack of resources, with the Air Force not allocated even half of its projected demand for capital budget in the current and next financial years. In fact, resources are so stretched that the Air Force will struggle to meet its committed liabilities – the money required to make tranche payments of past purchases.
At the other end is Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the proposed joint venture partner to manufacture the FGFA in India under an intergovernmental agreement. Faced with a lack of orders – the Su-30 MKI line will come to a halt within two years as all planes will roll out – HAL is keen to go ahead with the FGFA at the earliest.
In fact, it is learnt that HAL had a proposal at hand to use its internal resources to initially fund the developmental project with Russia – a sum to the tune of $ 4.5 billion – and manufacture the planes only after technical clearances from the Air Force. This proposal to tide over the resource crunch faced by the Air Force appears to have hit a roadblock as well.
While India has already spent $300 million on a preliminary design contract for the project with Russia that was completed in June 2013, the joint FGFA is now at a delicate edge, with a decision to be taken by the senior-most leadership on its future.
Time, however, may be running out, with Russia believed to have strongly conveyed that in case India does not take a call within the coming months, Moscow will go ahead with a different partner for the next generation fighter programme to meet its deadlines.
China may have operationalised its new fifth generation fighter aircraft – the only nation in the world other than US with this capability. On the other hand, Indo-Russian plans for an advanced counter to this remain uncertain, with the decision to go ahead now at the doorstep of the top echelons of government.
The J-20 ‘Black Eagle’ fighter jet has been flying since 2011, with China officially announcing its entry into combat service last week, albeit with an older engine that will reduce performance. In contrast, India and Russia have not been able to move ahead on signing a joint development plan for a new fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), that is being negotiated since 2010.
Sources have told ThePrint that despite some progress seen in the first two years of the BJP government when the project was brought back to the table in cross-governmental discussions, talks have hit a major roadblock that can only be resolved with the direct intervention of the Prime Minister’s Office (PMO).
At one end is the Indian Air Force, which has expressed certain reservations on the performance characteristics of the proposed new fighter jet, including its stealth capabilities, the jet engine technology, and weapons package.
The biggest constraint, however, appears to be a lack of resources, with the Air Force not allocated even half of its projected demand for capital budget in the current and next financial years. In fact, resources are so stretched that the Air Force will struggle to meet its committed liabilities – the money required to make tranche payments of past purchases.
At the other end is Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the proposed joint venture partner to manufacture the FGFA in India under an intergovernmental agreement. Faced with a lack of orders – the Su-30 MKI line will come to a halt within two years as all planes will roll out – HAL is keen to go ahead with the FGFA at the earliest.
In fact, it is learnt that HAL had a proposal at hand to use its internal resources to initially fund the developmental project with Russia – a sum to the tune of $ 4.5 billion – and manufacture the planes only after technical clearances from the Air Force. This proposal to tide over the resource crunch faced by the Air Force appears to have hit a roadblock as well.
While India has already spent $300 million on a preliminary design contract for the project with Russia that was completed in June 2013, the joint FGFA is now at a delicate edge, with a decision to be taken by the senior-most leadership on its future.
Time, however, may be running out, with Russia believed to have strongly conveyed that in case India does not take a call within the coming months, Moscow will go ahead with a different partner for the next generation fighter programme to meet its deadlines.
Report: India Requests Classified F-35A Joint Strike Fighter Briefing
confirmed.
more than just a rumour now.
confirmed.
more than just a rumour now.
It says according to Indian media reporting
. Ajay Shukla started the chain reaction followed by other media outlets.
oopsIt says according to Indian media reporting
but the diplomat is pretty reputable i doubt they would post this without some confirmation.
They are very reputable in reporting other newspapers news. Almost all their sources are other newspapers quoting their sources
Western news sources are not reliable when it comes to reporting from non-western sources.
We should wait for it to be reported in the American media if it is to be confirmed.
Before Any Deal is signed with USA ; we will first sign the deal for PAK FA
China’s fifth-gen fighter jet now in operation; India’s plans with Russia still stuck
China’s fifth-gen fighter jet in operation; India’s plans with Russia still stuck
The only thing stopping FGFA is money. If not for that, the contract would already have been signed.
Let's not forget that the FGFA contract is an R&D deal while the Rafale/F-35 contracts are production deals. So signing up for FGFA today will have no impact on the IAF's currently dwindling squadrons strength. So signing the FGFA before or after F-35/Rafale does not immediately benefit the IAF.
And FGFA and F-35 are not in competition with each other. Back in 2010 or 2011, the F-35 was still in development and it didn't make sense for India to pursue it. The problems related to development and the bad press played its part in keeping the IAF far away. But now the conditions are different.
Availability:
One major requirement for the IAF is the aircraft should be in an operational condition, which the F-35 will meet by the end of next year. The F-35 will be in competition with other "ready to induct" aircraft like F-16 and Rafale. So more F-35 means less F-16 and less Rafale, not less FGFA. The F-16 is ready, but the IAF dislikes it. IAF prefers Gripen, but it's not ready. Rafale is ready and we bought some. And the F-35 will join the list of ready aircraft soon. Bringing India on par with NATO countries allows the F-35 to be sold to India.
Affordability:
As for more Rafale, the euro has also become very strong, making European jets unaffordable. If we have a F-16/Gripen competition, the F-16 will win because of the exchange rate difference. For example, IAF Rafale has climbed up from $105M to $115M whereas the ruble has been a bit stagnant the last 1 year. So Rafale has become more expensive than before whereas the F-35 is becoming more cheap as production ramps up.
Capability:
The F-35 is obviously at the same level as the Rafale, so it shouldn't face major problems in meeting MMRCA class requirements. We know for a fact it's better than aircraft like the F-16 and Gripen.
There's too many factors favouring the F-35 today.
It seems to me this is a problematic solution . When do we need expect to sign on the contract and take deliveries of the F-35 ? Are we going to freeze the procurement of the Rafales at 36? What about the IN? How will we make up the nos in the interim for the ones we'd have retired / be retiring from now up until 2025 ? Finally , although the FGFA is for a different role , won't the procurement of the F-35 impact it's procurement ? Do we have that kind of a budget to accommodate both these FA? What about our logistic chain ? Will either Russia or the US permit their latest state of the art FA see simultaneous service with that of their principal rival in the same air force ?
I personally think things are in a state of flux between the MoD , GoI and the IAF ? There seems to be incoherence ruling supreme instead of cooperation understanding and strategy .
In the last 2 years from the LCA Mk-2 , to the F-16 , Gripens & the F-35 with the FGFA apart from the Rafales - all these have been considered for futuristic roles within the IAF and to make up the depleting nos . It's extremely frustrating & sad to note that we still are nowhere close to building up our strength w.r.t replacements in that time span .
JSF bores me
February 16, 2018 - In illo tempore I would have jumped on it, and besides the idea had ironically crossed my mind in the case of the Israeli F-16 shot down : why the Israelis do not use- they not their JSF to make their trips in Syria,questions Sputnik- French ? And I, myself, an obvious answer, before moving on to another critical review of the Americanist monster in case the question was treated: because he has already been there once (in October 2017) and that he was almost taken down, that he came home well, that he could thus prove operationally that it is a siting duck as they say, absolutely catastrophic, and that such a shit must not fall between the the hands of the enemy, even in a thousand pieces ... In short, they keep it preciously at home to do nothing of its technological nobility and its messy height, but public tours organized on Sunday on the tarmac Israeli bases, where he sits, motionless and useless.
( Sputnik- French writes comically, because it is understood that no adversary will ever have "better performing air systems" requiring the action of the JSF which is so much above all that, as "the experts ":" At the same time, the Older Forum may be keeping the F-35s in strategic reserve if it comes to conduct an operation against an opponent with more effective anti-aircraft systems, experts say ... ")
See, already the verve carried me away, as always with the JSF. However, I must note that this is not my favorite subject any more ... If the verve still prevails, it is in a text where I hear that I write little more about him and why . The JSF is no longer a subject for my mood as it was one of the favorite themes of this site, even the favorite theme by periods, and hundreds of articles have been written on this topic. (*)
I believe that we can say that the JSF, in my head, in the destiny of this site, represents the archetype of the case leading you to the exhaustion of the critical spirit , - not by deficiency, not by absence critical to do, but exactly the opposite. In these columns, I swear to you, everything was said about the JSF, it was attacked, dissected, autopsied, X-rayed from every angle and according to all the axes of reflection and appreciation. We have done ten times, a thousand times, the turn of this shit produced, that I say, defecated by the madness of the technologism reached the summit of its simulacrum of the extreme complexity until the nihilism of the Nothing produced by the madness of the man pressed by the System; and suddenly fell back into the fall, that shit, until it collapsed into the most complete inefficiency and the nightmare of labyrinthine and Kafkaesque regression delivered by hyper-progress.
There is a kind of disgust in dealing with this kind of subject in a repetitive way, especially when it comes to such a specific subject, as clearly identifiable as much in its outlines and sides, as in its foundation. The JSF summarizes and magnificently illustrates, by itself, the crisis of technology, the crisis of bureaucracy and corruption, the crisis of human vanity in its darkest and most destructuring exercises, the crisis of our counter-civilization and post-postmodernity - in short, the crisis of the collapse of the System. It summarizes and magnificently illustrates the vanity and corruption even more psychological than venal, the blindness and the automated lie of the determinist-narrativist type, the moral and intellectual enslavement, etc., of those who promote the thing, of those who rave about her, who are excited about him to a kind of orgasm of madness, half-timed between the infantilism of the Meccano toy for the postmodern child and the conformism of the attention-keeper NATO officers (I am speaking more in this case non-US hardcore fans of JSF than US).
But to deal too often with the case of this thing, we end up going around in circles, and finally get lost. That those who have not understood what the JSF go in peace, I do not blame them. Simply, it is a question of raising the subject and attaching oneself, that is to say, to attack the monstrous thing that crushes all the rest, and which produced this monstrous thing that is the JSF . It is to be interested in the Cause-First of the metahistoric sequence: the JSF is only a consequence of this Cause-First , and its exploration for several years has had the effect of better understanding, better identification the cause. Persevering would be lost now. Since "the First Cause of the metahistoric sequence" is identified, well located, well measured, - and this is the System, indeed , - lingering over one of its creatures is a weakness if not a fault that makes one risk regression, like the JSF itself. Admittedly, there are specific cases where we can, where we have to go back to it, if we can get out of it one more touch in the description of the System which is already well advanced, but on the bottom the JSF's problem is solved and the trash bin of the history of the technologism at its end is advanced to be ignored.
This is the meaning of my title: "the JSF impedes me", me personally, because I drew the substantive marrow for my work, for the Mission assigned to me. The subject is certainly not exhausted, but it is essentially for me, it went from my essential to the accessory ... And all this is written while it could well be that the the JSF was still beingtalked about in dedefensa.org , and for the best reasons in the world, for example for the psychological or political situations it causes, or triggers, etc. (I know either pen that would do this with elegance and clairvoyance ... Who knows, we'll see.) But the object-JSF itself is, for my account, already exposed to his place of honor at the Museum of Postmodern Horrors.
(It is being prepared, to commemorate the collapse of the thing, for the post-collapse, but already open to the public.)
Go ahead, you will see the JSF; in addition, the entrance to the Museum of Horrors is free, it is always free, day and night, seven days a week ... The horror, like human stupidity, never sleeps with one eye, always ready to jump in the genre "Scout always ready", to parade, to show, to wiggle the rump. Soon they are no longer distinguished from each other, horror and human stupidity.
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The F-35 carrot is a long way ahead.. till then LM will keep dangling new things..
Btw
Counter offer from F16 people about F35+F16 to go against the Raffy MII
deal. LM pulling every trick from it's bag.. so DA not gonna hold back..
Americans fear a lot that once there is a firm Safranised Kaveri ecosystem deal signed of what potentially is a xx00 engine deal, the door for more lucrative Indian fighter jets would close very fast
There fear is so high that India will demand higher tech for future deals and at this very moment, there is a paper circulated with certain journos to write negative about Rafale and focus on its so called stealth and radar detection avoidance systems (they did not say spectra directly) . Their contention is frontak Rafale RCS and nose cone might have leaky noise.. (God knows what made then say that) .. the same presentation in detail was handed to IAF who politely told MOD that they know Rafale better technically then Lockheed Martin owing to constant evaluation (MMRCA) and deeper participation for Indian specific modifications. But LM still have managed few reporters .. so expect some indirect pot shots too..
Bottom line -
Engine tech perfection and some additional technology is fixed to be fully shared with
France for all future planes where India wants a control.
PS- look out for some new missiles ASCM and one more.. recall when I said we have a ASMP-A derivative coming up.. you will see some tit bits soon on that.. and when you see, folks will realise the depth of Indian and French side cooperation..
@halloweene
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