I doubt government will go for tenders for any strategic deals considering the amount of time tenders take. Most strategic deals will go through FMS route. I could be wrong, but I believe the SE tender is plain hogwash and was initiated just to buy time.
IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi
- Thread starter Aashish
- Start date
- Status
I am quite sick of some extraordinarily foolish people consistently insisting in fulfillment of 42 squadrons at the soonest without giving a damn about any wartime requirements of mass manufacturing or considering any historical data of previous wars and hence deriving the actual number of planes required for a full scale war to inflict maximum damage with minimal costs.
42 squadrons is a made up number and India won't be able to destroy all its enemy with just 42x18 = 800 planes. Any discussion on importing planes without technology transfer to fill this 42 squadrons is foolishness of the highest order.
The only thing India needs is capabilities of manufacturing planes in India itself. That technology is what one must seek. Imported planes are nothing but junks and will only serve to buy time for the 'international pressure' to kick in and buy time to beg for foreign arms sale.
By the way, India already makes Al31FP engine 100% indigenously from raw material stage, thanks to deep ToT from Russia. So, India has equipment to make engines on its own. I don't see merit in saying that foreign help is critical to develop Kaveri. All that is needed is funding and test beds which Congress government denied.
42 squadrons is a made up number and India won't be able to destroy all its enemy with just 42x18 = 800 planes. Any discussion on importing planes without technology transfer to fill this 42 squadrons is foolishness of the highest order.
The only thing India needs is capabilities of manufacturing planes in India itself. That technology is what one must seek. Imported planes are nothing but junks and will only serve to buy time for the 'international pressure' to kick in and buy time to beg for foreign arms sale.
By the way, India already makes Al31FP engine 100% indigenously from raw material stage, thanks to deep ToT from Russia. So, India has equipment to make engines on its own. I don't see merit in saying that foreign help is critical to develop Kaveri. All that is needed is funding and test beds which Congress government denied.
A long time ago, in a website far, far away
'My estimate is $ 73 mi for fly away cost and $ 113 when every things are taken into accont so value of contract for 36 would be around $ 4 billions.'
Based on the Picdelarand Deflation Index, where $115mn Rafale was valued at $73million, thus giving the relationship between actual price and Picdel's online price as 157%, I predict DRAL Rafale to cost 125% of French produced Rafale.
Last edited:
So Al41 also can be made in India as ToT is done and now HAL owns the Technology?
Let's not forget that we are still a third world country.
India's military is among the largest in the world, while being supported by an income that's 5 times smaller than France's. To put that into perspective, the Chinese national revenue is 8 times bigger and the US national revenue is 11 times bigger than India's.
A lot of people confuse India's financial limitations with bureaucratic ineptitude.
The armed forces need twice their current procurement budget in order to get all that they want. Which means, at the rate India is growing, the military will get the budget they need today only 7 years later. That's why all our procurement programs get delayed. And it gets even worse when the economy goes for a toss.
Al41 technology has not been transferred yet. India has not upgraded to super Sukhoi.
Indian military procurement if imported, is definitely not worth it.
Unlike some people misguiding that India is a third world country and is poor definitely has no idea of how per capita and absolute number work. India can make 18 million two wheeler, 4 million cars which France can't make. Also, the France has lower revenue and budget than India in terms of dollars. It is simply that France is a unitary government whereas in India we have to take state and local budgets into account to get a fuller picture. In addition, Indian equipment costs half or third of what French costs
And rafale price for 36 was €3.42 billion that is to say $ 3.42* 1.09= 3.72 billion so only 103.55 million for one unit.
I just want to give some more information:
- $ 73 millions is a cost (of production) not a price like 103.55 million
- $ 115 million is a price where you take the € 95 million price (3420/36 =95) and you made the conversion in $ with the current rate ~1.21 but India could be hedged against an unfavorable change in rates.
Last edited:
According to Prasun Sengupta
FGFA will happen but after 2025; NO F 35 will come
FGFA will replace Mig 29 and Mirage 2000
Rafale and Su 30 will complement each other
F 16 and LCA mk 2 are both needed for replacing Mig 21 ; Mig 27 and Jaguar
FGFA will happen but after 2025; NO F 35 will come
FGFA will replace Mig 29 and Mirage 2000
Rafale and Su 30 will complement each other
F 16 and LCA mk 2 are both needed for replacing Mig 21 ; Mig 27 and Jaguar
The biggest frauds in the history of India are being perpetuated by Modi Govt. Rafale deal is one such example. We all know what French Govt paid for each Rafale and for an export customer the price was lower than Euro57m. India specific changes have been paid for separately. Now how do we explian a price revision of over Euro40million to fly away cost?
The agreement between DA and Reliance to produce Rafale in India predates the actual deal. Why?
Why did BJP not consider Typhoon for G2G deal when MMRCA deal had been cancelled and replaced by G2G deal? Did it have anything to do with DA-Reliance deal?
Why and how the cost price as paid for by French Government inflated by Euro 40million for each aircraft? The cost of India specific changes being in addition to this price.
Does this inflated price help DRAL to make exceptional profits as the price of India produced Rafale will get benchmarked to French assembled Rafale?
Is it an exercise to show that India produced Rafale will be cheaper by discounting this price increase by 20%?
is it not a fact that tracing money within India is a big problem than bringing money from abroad which has been parked as bribes? Does BJP plan to have the bribes in this deal thru DRAL in India?
Who was supposed to be the beneficiary of this price inflation? Did the agreement between DA and Reliance had anything to do with it?
Bofor’s was about USD64million and government with 402 seats in lok sabha lost in 1989. Here we are talking of Euro 1.44billion. Can there be a bigger scam than this?
This deal is sufficient to bring down this government in 2019 and no BJP government will ever be formed for next 20 yrs
Modi has a very potent card up his sleeve and he has a time limit for it. He has to play it by 15 Sep 2018 or he losses it completely.
If He does not play his most potent card by this date, he will never be able to do it before 2019 elections and I will than play my card.
Rafale deal is the biggest fraud which has been played on our people.
The agreement between DA and Reliance to produce Rafale in India predates the actual deal. Why?
Why did BJP not consider Typhoon for G2G deal when MMRCA deal had been cancelled and replaced by G2G deal? Did it have anything to do with DA-Reliance deal?
Why and how the cost price as paid for by French Government inflated by Euro 40million for each aircraft? The cost of India specific changes being in addition to this price.
Does this inflated price help DRAL to make exceptional profits as the price of India produced Rafale will get benchmarked to French assembled Rafale?
Is it an exercise to show that India produced Rafale will be cheaper by discounting this price increase by 20%?
is it not a fact that tracing money within India is a big problem than bringing money from abroad which has been parked as bribes? Does BJP plan to have the bribes in this deal thru DRAL in India?
Who was supposed to be the beneficiary of this price inflation? Did the agreement between DA and Reliance had anything to do with it?
Bofor’s was about USD64million and government with 402 seats in lok sabha lost in 1989. Here we are talking of Euro 1.44billion. Can there be a bigger scam than this?
This deal is sufficient to bring down this government in 2019 and no BJP government will ever be formed for next 20 yrs
Modi has a very potent card up his sleeve and he has a time limit for it. He has to play it by 15 Sep 2018 or he losses it completely.
If He does not play his most potent card by this date, he will never be able to do it before 2019 elections and I will than play my card.
Rafale deal is the biggest fraud which has been played on our people.
You clearly meant it as the price in those posts. No backtracking possible.
In the last few days
There have been many articles in various fora Defending and Praising the Rafale deal
It was impossible to negotiate with FOUR countries especially some like UK and Germany
show a Lot of ATTITUDE in various matters such as Nuclear proliferation and kashmir
You should write a detailed article ; if you really think that something is wrong
UPA was talking all BS ; their deal was nothing but a farce
You cannot just take 10 years to come to a decision and expect prices to remain the same
Add to it the customisations ; spares and Offsets all of which were ABSENT from the UPA deal
Last edited:
I doubt the numbers are correct. For example, MKI cost $22M in 2000. So we should be applying escalation to the cost of Rafale.
Tata-LM for F-16 and Adani-Saab for Gripen also predates any SE deal.
L2. According to our procurement rules, we can't go back to the L2. Plus, can't drop nukes.
No GTG deals have ever faced corruption issues in the history of India's procurement.
FGFA won't take that long, unless he is talking about procurement.
Although the F-35 thing is still doubtful, I agree with the rest.
Stop fooling around. Fly away cost (for India) is clearly meant as selling price for France. Which is what you were trying to sell to the members in erstwhile forum for quite a while. The lines following it make it quite unambiguous
'and $ 113 when every things are taken into accont so value of contract for 36 would be around $ 4 billions.'
It is very consistent with it's price in international market (Qatar deal).
What is going to happen by 9/18?
What about the offsets , consultancy to GTRE , usage of megajoule , etc ? Does that come free or is there a price attached ? What about the N deal we signed with Russia for supply of N reactors to Koodankulam ? Isn't there a secret protocol there for fees in lieu of design / consultancy for the boomers we have manufactured?
Last edited:
Yes it's unambiguous, 113 is a price!
No it's not the same, because Dassault, Safran, and Thales have paid 25% of the development of the Rafale and they have the authorization of the French government to recover this investment by raising the price of Rafale sold for export .
- Status