Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

Your SU probably can, your Rafale currently can't.
The link I gave clearly said it was a single ship, cued by its HMS. DAS does the same thing, only better

Yes there is off-board stuff that can happen both ways too. This is what i said earlier, "Data/sensor fusion from onboard and off-board is given to the pilot. He doesn't care where it comes from and what, or how many sensors working together, as long as he has it."
 
Your SU probably can, your Rafale currently can't.
The link I gave clearly said it was a single ship, cued by its HMS. DAS does the same thing, only better

Yes there is off-board stuff that can happen both ways too. This is what i said earlier, "Data/sensor fusion from onboard and off-board is given to the pilot. He doesn't care where it comes from and what, or how many sensors working together, as long as he has it."
Maybe he's trolling?
 
Maybe he's trolling?
An innocent question, followed by a demand for proof. "Can you provide evidence from other reliable sources? "
Even the wiki NG link wasn't good enough. Why would you suspect ulterior motives? :ROFLMAO:
 
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Your SU probably can, your Rafale currently can't.
The link I gave clearly said it was a single ship, cued by its HMS. DAS does the same thing, only better

Yes there is off-board stuff that can happen both ways too. This is what i said earlier, "Data/sensor fusion from onboard and off-board is given to the pilot. He doesn't care where it comes from and what, or how many sensors working together, as long as he has it."
What I mean is about the 360° scope, it's clearly stated there that connectivity between fighter aircraft is needed, and that's something like MADL in the F-35. Moreover, regarding F-18 which can fire rear-firing missiles, it's completely different when compared to EO-DAS, because it uses a direct cueing system from HMS (off-boresight method), not passive IR like EO-DAS, both can't be compared.
 
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Is Pentagon’s continued funding of F-35s throwing good money after bad?​

“Does it make sense to try to intercept $20,000 drones with $130 million fighter aircraft shooting million-dollar missiles?” asked retired Marine Corps Col. Thomas X. Hammes, a distinguished fellow at National Defense University, at an event at the Atlantic Council during NATO week this month in Washington, according to the event video.


“We’ve got to work out that cost benefit. This is the whole revolution of the small, smart and many compared to the few and exquisite,” he added. “Our few and exquisite are great in a really localized fight against somebody who will play by the rules. But if you’ve got to base your F-35s so far back to be out of the range of the drone that they can’t reach the battle space, then that’s a useless, wasted asset. We’ve got to figure out how to go cheap.”

He is correct. If the U.S. cannot embrace the lower-cost methods of fighting future wars to counter enemies that openly hope to financially outmaneuver us, then we are heading for defeat. That will require embracing future systems such as NGAD and drone-centric projects and admitting that without them further funding, the F-35 may be throwing good money after bad.
 
It's lucky the F-35 is planned to get laser weapons then.
Also, how many rounds does the gun have again?
“Does it make sense to try to intercept $20,000 drones with $130 million fighter aircraft shooting million-dollar missiles?”
 
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Having herciv post the clickbait 'throwing money' article a few posts higher, wasn't good enough? You had to double down. Or are you just trolling links and not reading the posts?
 
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Having herciv post the clickbait 'throwing money' article a few posts higher, wasn't good enough? You had to double down. Or are you just trolling links and not reading the posts?

Is Pentagon’s continued funding of F-35s throwing good money after bad?

With the NATO Summit and the focus on President Biden’s health and gaffes behind us, we should reflect on a significant shortcoming: China.

China came up in the NATO conversation, but mostly in the context of Beijing’s support for Russia in the war in Ukraine. What was seldom mentioned was that China’s rise isn’t just an American problem, but an international one. Chinese troops are training on NATO member Poland’s eastern border in Belarus; China encourages the Houthis (which damages freedom of navigation in the global commons), and China is openly building up its military and championing its “inevitable” air superiority through its still-developing sixth-generation fighter aircraft. China is advancing on land and sea and in the air.

Of these developments, China’s sixth-generation fighter aircraft is the greatest threat to U.S. strategic interests in the Pacific and the collective West. Information on the jet, which is projected to be ready by 2035, is limited but causes concern. China appears to be focusing on direct attacks and high-altitude maneuverability. It also seems to focus heavily on integrating artificial intelligence and having a “system of systems” to coordinate with other military assets. The result is a focus on cheap, plentiful, disposable, high-tech assets coordinated by an air superiority jet.

Cheap Chinese drones are already sinking ships in the Red Sea and forcing the expenditure of vast sums of money to intercept drones. If your adversary thinks the rules of the game are about to change, you would be well advised to match them — or quit.

The U.S. does have a plan to match China, the Next Generation Air Dominance Platform, which would focus on a “family of systems” using the “loyal wingman” AI-assisted drones accompanying fighters.

Unfortunately, the U.S. NGAD may soon fall victim to budget pressures. According to Gen. David Allvin, Air Force chief of staff, budget deliberations for NGAD “are still underway; there’s been no decision. We’re looking at a lot of very difficult options.” In July, Air Force Secretary Frank Kendall said he was committed to designing and building the new fighter, but costs had to be cut. Defense contractors were supposed to make bids this year, but that’s no longer certain.

There is hope, however. “NGAD is alive and well,” Mr. Kendall told defense industry media earlier this month. “I can tell you that we are looking at the NGAD concept to see if it’s the right concept. We’re looking at whether we can do something that’s less expensive.”

The “less expensive” alternative, to date, has been the F-35, aka “Fat Amy,” to America’s top guns. The F-35 has been active for over 30 years. Its most expensive variant costs about $115 million. The Government Accountability Office has released multiple reports over the years highlighting various issues with the F-35 program, including cost overruns and modernization delays.

The F-35 aircraft represents a growing portion of the Air Force’s tactical aviation fleet — with around 450 in action currently. The Defense Department plans to buy nearly 2,500 F-35s at an estimated program life cycle cost exceeding $1.7 trillion, out of this amount, $1.3 trillion is associated with just operating and modernizing the F-35s we have.

Thankfully, Congress is raising alarms about the F-35’s waste. Rep. Adam Smith of Washington, the top Democrat on the House Armed Services Committee, and Rep. Donald Norcross, New Jersey Democrat, said revamping Fat Amy is too expensive. Rep. John Garamendi, chairman of the House Armed Services Committee’s Subcommittee on Readiness, said in a hearing on April 28, 2023, that contractors such as Lockheed Martin and Pratt & Whitney were not meeting their obligations and prices and deliveries were unpredictable. In 2022, he called the program a “waste of money.”

The debate over NGAD isn’t just about the F-35 or even air doctrine. It touches on the posture of the U.S. defense establishment and whether American airpower will focus on expensive crewed vehicles or cheaper drones like the RQ-11 Raven.

“Does it make sense to try to intercept $20,000 drones with $130 million fighter aircraft shooting million-dollar missiles?” asked retired Marine Corps Col. Thomas X. Hammes, a distinguished fellow at National Defense University, at an event at the Atlantic Council during NATO week this month in Washington, according to the event video.

“We’ve got to work out that cost benefit. This is the whole revolution of the small, smart and many compared to the few and exquisite,” he added. “Our few and exquisite are great in a really localized fight against somebody who will play by the rules. But if you’ve got to base your F-35s so far back to be out of the range of the drone that they can’t reach the battle space, then that’s a useless, wasted asset. We’ve got to figure out how to go cheap.”

He is correct. If the U.S. cannot embrace the lower-cost methods of fighting future wars to counter enemies that openly hope to financially outmaneuver us, then we are heading for defeat. That will require embracing future systems such as NGAD and drone-centric projects and admitting that without them further funding, the F-35 may be throwing good money after bad.
 
:ROFLMAO: twice wasn't enough in one day..lets troll the clickbait a 3rd time.

Meanwhile Greece signed for 20. How many nations is this now that has bought or going to buy? 19 have bought..with another 4 or more saying they will order..23 or more isn't it?

Greece signs deal for 20 F-35A fighters

according to defense minister Nikos Dendias. “Greece is building powerful armed forces by purchasing the most modern combat aircraft in the world,” Dendias said about the agreement, according to a translation from EPT News.

“The F-35 is the only fighter suitable to strengthen Greece’s sovereignty and operational capability with allies.”
 
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The article highlights the following points:

Several challenges and limitations surround the F-35 programme:
  • Cost: The F-35 is extremely expensive to develop, acquire and maintain. Budget overruns and delays have often been criticised.
  • Reliability: Maintenance and availability problems have been reported, which may limit deployment capacity in the event of intense conflict.
  • Adaptation to new challenges: Faced with rapidly evolving technologies and opposing military doctrines, particularly those of China, the relevance of the F-35 must be constantly reassessed.
The war in Ukraine has highlighted several important points:
  • Importance of Drones: Drones have played a crucial role in surveillance, reconnaissance and even strike operations. Their relatively low cost and ability to operate in large numbers make them a valuable asset.
  • Cost-effectiveness: The need to balance cost and operational effectiveness has become more apparent. Spending significant resources to intercept cheaper threats is not always viable.
  • Flexibility and Adaptability: Armed forces must be able to adapt quickly to new threats and technologies. This includes integrating autonomous systems and improving electronic warfare capabilities.
China is actively developing its military capabilities, including sixth-generation fighter aircraft and autonomous drones. Here are the key points concerning this threat:
  • Sixth Generation Aircraft: China is working on new generation fighter aircraft, incorporating AI and advanced coordination with other systems. This could pose a significant challenge to current air forces.
  • Affordable and disposable drones: Cheap Chinese drones in large numbers can overwhelm expensive defence systems, making numerical superiority a critical factor.
  • Strategic Expansions: China's military activities in areas such as the South China Sea and cooperation with allies such as Russia are increasing pressure on US and allied defence capabilities.
Alternatives and Future Strategies
  • Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD): NGAD is a programme to develop a family of systems including manned fighter aircraft, UAVs and other advanced technologies. This programme could offer a more flexible and potentially less expensive solution than the F-35.
  • Focus on UAVs and AI: Integrating more autonomous UAVs and AI-based systems can offer an effective and adaptable alternative. Loyal wingman" drones accompanying fighter jets can increase combat capabilities while reducing risks for human pilots.
  • Resource Optimisation: Reassessing the use of resources and adopting more and cheaper systems can help balance costs and operational needs.
Conclusion

The debate over the relevance of the F-35 to modern challenges, particularly those posed by China, is complex. To judge the capabilities of the F-35, it is essential to consider more flexible and cost-effective alternatives such as NGAD and autonomous UAVs. The war in Ukraine and the rapid evolution of opposing military technologies underline the need to constantly adapt defence strategies to maintain operational superiority.