This is just hardball negotiations, rumors from HAL is that project is not dead. Russians wanted to sell India a PAKFA MKI, rather than a joint development effort, that is the norm irkut was used too. ARDC wanted certain functional spec changes, and IAF was not happy at all with the sensor suite and wanted to bring in DRDO in the mix with certain joint development for Sensor fusion, IAF also wanted assurances on the engine which is still indevelopment and Russians are not at all willing to let DRDO participate in testing and sharing results for the same. There are also serious issues with stealth, with some claiming its worse that low observable system.
Last edited:
Yes agree ,but this will be like 2 sides of a coin we can’t opt for both since financially not feasible.if AMCA is not delivered as per expectation to IAF then they may plan for any 5th generations plane available in the market .Russians are still trying to make this fighter plane a good stealth plane who knows may be India will go for new MIG project .AMCA should be 1st priority of IAF and ADA .hope this project will be a success story for Indian aero industries.
Everything you have said is basically what the FGFA is anyway. The sensor suite will be different, with Indian software, the fusion engine will be Indian, and of course it will be based on the new engine.
The ACM pointed out that the PAK FA is more stealthy than the J-20 in one of his post-Gaganshakti videos. And he also pointed out that the only true blue stealth designs are like the Neuron and B-2. So if they are saying the FGFA is not stealthy enough when comparing to aircraft like B-2, then that will apply to the F-22 and F-35 also.
But if it turns out the FGFA is as stealthy as the F-22, but significantly inferior to the PCA, then it becomes pointless as well. Because the Chinese will follow up with their own PCA equivalent design pretty quickly, while we are in the middle of inducting the FGFA all the way in the 2030s.
If the aircraft is not stealthy enough, it entirely depends on what they consider to be stealth, then the FGFA will fail. And I'm sure both the IAF and RuAF know this.
But Russians have issues with joint development, testing validation, and are asking for more money. Indian are like 500 ka purana note chalega kya? So that's where it's stuck.
Take it with a pinch of salt, I am hearing from the horse's mouth.
Frontal aspect is not to spec, IR signature more than design claims, RCS all aspect is larger as Russia is not sharing complete results with IAF, thus the frustration. IAF's plans were a bit contingent upon FGFA being a Stealth Air Dom, while AMCA being a Lo Obs Multirole. If FGFA too is low Obs type system, then it becomes redundant, or AMCA's requirements have to be strengthened.(that's my take)
That is where the issue is, Russia is not letting IAF test the PAKFA system before signing, there is no point in committing 4bn until we know what we are getting into.
I am quoting a old article here from Hindustan times where IAF give their feedback on FGFA ...it’s dead for IAF but not for MOD and IAF also see lack of technology in this machine.
—————————————————
Indian Air Force not keen on stealth fighter with Russia | india news | Hindustan Times
A multibillion dollar programme to develop and produce a stealth fighter with Russia appears to be in peril, with the Indian Air Force (IAF) against pursuing it as it believes that the platform lacks the desired stealth characteristics and is inferior to US-made F-35 and F-22 jets, said a senior IAF officer familiar with the project.
He clarified there were no plans to go for a US stealth fighter.
In the IAF’s assessment, the proposed Indo-Russian fifth generation fighter aircraft, or FGFA, comes with limited capabilities and design issues at an exorbitant price. “Whether the FGFA The IAF doesn’t think it’s worth pursuing,” the person quoted above said.
The government is finding it hard to reconcile two different points of view on FGFA.
While the IAF wants the project to be abandoned, a high-powered panel appointed by defence ministry to examine different aspects of FGFA recommended in its report last year that India should go ahead with the scheme.
“We are spending more time to see what are the merits and demerits of both arguments. But yes, the FGFA is abhorrently expensive, so we are looking at what we are getting for our money,” said a top defence ministry official familiar with the project.
Air Marshal Simhakutty Varthaman (retd), who headed the ministry’s panel, refused comments on his report or the contrary IAF view on the stealth fighter. “I would like to leave it to the defence ministry,” he said.
India has been in discussions with Russia but has not signed a $4 billion research and development contract for FGFA.
“I was never enthused by it and I would go by what IAF has to say,” said Air Marshal Vinod Patni (retd), head of Centre for Air Power Studies and a former IAF vice chief.
First Published: Mar 16, 2018 23:11:07
There is no such downgrade in stealth specs for AMCA. What you are speaking off is a very old requirement.
And FGFA will be a much better multirole aircraft than the AMCA, primarily because of the FGFA's new engine's superior specs and bigger weapons bays.
I agree that we need to perform at least some flight tests, but all the current PAK FAs are prototypes. And right now only qualified test pilots can fly it.
But I hope they let us fly at least when the LSPs become available.
This is the most unbiased opinion out of all opinions within the govt and forces.
India should co-produce stealth fighter with Russia, says top panel
A high-powered panel appointed by the defence ministry to examine different aspects of the multi-billion dollar fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) project has said that India should co-develop and co-produce the stealth fighter with Russia, Indian Air Force sources said.
At a time when the IAF has serious reservations about the project, the committee, headed by Air Marshal Simhakutty Varthaman (retd), has strongly recommended India should go ahead with it, the sources said.
$8.63-billion advanced fighter aircraft project with Russia put on ice
Opponents of the FGFA have even argued that the project would duplicate and hinder the indigenous AMCA project. However, last July, an experts group headed by Air Marshal (Retired) S Varthaman, set up to consider this question, ruled that there were no conflict lines between the FGFA and AMCA. It stated that the technological expertise that would be gained from working with Russian experts would benefit the AMCA project.
Potential reality:
$8.63-billion advanced fighter aircraft project with Russia put on ice
The IAF has been split down the middle on the FGFA. Broadly, flying branch officers of the “French school”– whose careers have centred on the Mirage and Jaguar fighters — have tended to oppose the FGFA. Meanwhile, officers from the “Russian school”, their careers grounded in the MiG and Sukhoi fleet, have supported the FGFA.
I am really not sure. It's all up to what really the PAKFA/FGFA offers, if it is a F22 stealth profile long range heavy Air Dom fighter it brings a lot of Power. It basically becomes a fifth gen SU30MKI which is not bad at all. In my estimate, FGFA will be much more expensive than what is being reported, remember MKI had most of its teething issues sorted out in SU27 amd SU30K and still has logistical issues.
On the flipside if FGFA is marginally better than a 4.5th gen SU30, with poor stealth, then we much rather have an upgraded MKI fleet with aesa, sensor fusion and an engine change, rather than sinking money in FGFA.
Now coming to AMCA, its biggest issue remains ADA's track record. If they can have a prototype flying by 2022 then there is point in banking on it, or else I am not really confident if that aircraft will even make it. Do we want to abandon a possible FGFA for an unknown entity like AMCA. That is a risky bet. Just look at the LCA mk2, how long have we been hearing about it, and not a single prototype flies till date. IAF committed to LCA mk2 in 2008, it's been a decade, and not one prototype, I don't even know if ADA is serious about the AMCA, IAF has not commited any numbers yet, if it does tomorrow, and ADA follows LCA MK2 type project management, my guess is it wont atleast not fly till 2028, maybe by then US will offer the F22 to India, you never know, it would be a 23 year old platform by then, (F15's entered production in early 70's, by 80's were licensed to the Japanese. )
Last edited:
Interesting tidbit, ARDC actually just wanted a system to flown in to India to be tested against ground radar and aerial platforms, it wasn't stressing on flight testing by Indian Pilots. It also wanted one instrumented platform for telemetry data.
As far as the chief test pilot Sergei Bogdan is concerned, the Flanker family cannot compare to the PAK FA by any standards. And he was even referring to the Su-35, which has significant performance and sensor advantages over the MKI.
The problem for ADA was, they screwed up quite a bit of the Mk1 design, so they got stuck fixing those. And the govt said they won't sanction Mk2 development until Mk1 had progressed, that's why the delay with Mk2. But the AMCA is necessary in order for DRDO to develop next gen tech regardless of whether it's late or not.
The US planned to offer up the F-22 for export if production restarted, but that plan's dead now. The US is going for a new development called PCA which they plan to bring to IOC spec by 2030.
Doing that is pointless. The aircraft is a work in progress and its current specs don't allow proper RCS testing in operational conditions. It's only by early 2020 will the aircraft start coming up to spec, and will get to full spec only by mid 2020s. In that sense, even the early LSPs are pretty pointless for the IAF.
I was watching this video the other day
I impression I got from the video is that
1) None of the gentlemen in this discussion seems to be content with the progress Russians have made or what they promised.
2) They are not happy with the stealth shaping of the airframe and they don't consider it a true stealth fighter likes of F-22/F-35 or even J-20?
3) They all have consensus on the price escalation from the Russian side as well as technology denial and the work sharing.
in the light of the above arguments, I don't really think you can unilaterally blame the government for the derailment of this deal and I think SU-57 MKI would be a better deal when / If this fighter matures rather than committing billions of dollars in a half-baked product that their own air force doesn't seem to be very interested as of now.
Disagree, it's to evaluate the structural changes and optimization needed for FGFA variant, wherein India wants joint development.
I don't think anyone has blamed government either the current or the previous dispensation. Government's issues come in when it's related to price negotiations etc. As known in public domain, it seems IAF is not satisfied with the functional specs, given that Russians won't even validate the functional specs it claims to begin with.
I let you reply to yourself in this case:
I am Skeptical about ADA.
Sure, but you get the gist, implications of delays for AMCA is going to be its extinction.
Sorry things got mixed up, I copied my post from DFI forum and I didn't mean to add government part here.
What I mean was that all the gentlemen in this video are very much on the same page as far as the progress on the SU-57 is concerned hence I asked your take whether does it make sense to go for Su-57 or to add more Rafale squadrons and in the meanwhile speedup the AMCA development.
Last edited: