ADA AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

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India had developed its own PARAM computers and still is capable of making 180nm chips in SCL, Chandigarh. India can make probably much better chips of 65nm too but it is not revealed

Ask the ones who built PARAM on what computer they designed it and wrote its code on. Come back and tell me if it' not on a Windows OS with Intel CPU inside it. This is what I mean leapfrogging. Again - this is only possible if you rely on foreign tech (which we most certainly are).

You must be a fool to think without the advanced computing, BVR and radars like UTTAM, it is possible to take down Tejas!

Only fool here is you if you think F-16 and F-15 of 70s cannot take down Tejas. UTTAM is a prototype and is YEARS away from flying, let alone being accepted into service. It is not for no reason that IAF is buying ELM-2052 AESA from Israel for Jaguar upgrade.

And of course the BVR missile also is Israeli and so is the radar on Tejas (ELM-2032). :ROFLMAO:

Stealth is just your fantasy. Have blue was poorly designed and not aerodynamic. It was designed for radars rather than as a balance and hence it crashed badly. There is no point hiding behind a tree and calling yourself stealth mode

Have Blue was designed to evade radar and that is what it did. That is grandfather of all stealth aircraft that exist today. If there was no Have Blue, there would be no F-117, no F-22 and certainly no AMCA (although AMCA only exists on paper as it is).

USSR was pretty strong militarily and that is what mattered. The problem with USSR was that the USSR had lot of ethnicity which were not strongly bonded. That was the problem rather than military thrust of R&D.

It was economy which killed USSR. Read some history.

The seeker has been indigenised and is under testing. As I said, catch up is happening fast.

Indigenization does not mean screwdrivergiri. If so, then even Apple iPhone is indigenous to India :LOL:.

What is there to be stretched. UTTAM AESA radar is already under flight tests and algorithms for various radars are already being developed.

Show me where UTTAM is flying. They rigged up a ground test on Tejas nose and already you are daydreaming. Lol, you remind me of myself when I was 14 years old.

The MRSAM, LRSAM are nothing but indigenisation programmes for Barak-8.

They are what Army and IAF refer to Barak-8 as. They are names of the separate IA and IAF requirements under which Barak-8 was procured. There is no separate missile called MRSAM or LRSAM.

Huehue. What is KLUB SAM? India made its own algorithm and radar. Seekers are also developed and is under testing. Akash SAM is already deployed

Kub you idiot. Not Klub. Let me repeat what you said: Can you even read?

2K12 Kub - Wikipedia

KUB_150501_01.jpg


DRDO manages to rehash a 1960s Soviet missile and fanboys like you celebrate! :ROFLMAO:

Does Gripen fire its cannon? Oh! It does not have a cannon.

Say what?

Gripen.jpg


Tejas may not even have a cannon in normal usage. Cannon may be discarded as an additional drag and weight.

That's what idiots thought before Vietnam War happened and aircraft designers got a refresher on why cannon is necessary.

FOC is 2018 end. Suvarna Raju has said this in November 2017 interview with Indian express. Don't repeat the same thing

Is that the 112th time that FOC was rescheduled? Or is it 113th? I'm sorry I forgot.

Jericho is better than Indian missiles? India may have developed late but Agni is better and longer range than Israeli missile.

The internet is there for you to use. Please use it.

Indian R&D also has been extensively involved in nuclear submarine projects. It is not that India imports these from Russia. You are speaking as if Indians were retards and fully helped by Russia. Russia may have given ideas but not entire blueprint.

:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

That does it. You're an idiot.

Arihant was initially made as a SSN, not SSBN. But it was simply branded SSBN after 1999.

Yeah right. In 1999 we suddenly decided to drill 4 big cylindrical holes in Arihant hull and make it SSBN.

Arihant appears to be a combination of the two. A range f just 750km for its missiles is too less to be a reasonable SSBN. It is difficult to come that close to a coast to fire missiles at enemy. It is in all likelihood, a SSN and SSBN combo.

The K-15/B-05 is a technology demonstration missile for testing SLBM tech. It is developed from land based Shaurya. The K-4 SLBM with 3500km is what is meant to be our real undersea nuclear deterrent.

The weight of Arihant is also comparable to Akula, not to heavier SSBN. This rises suspicion of it being SSBN

There is no rule that SSBN should only come in X size or displacement. Arihant is small because this is our first step. Later SSBNs will be larger.

Also, you have overlooked the fact that Arihant is too slow and too underpowered to be a real hunter killer SSN.

Conspiracy theories come because the official version is filled with lies and inconsistency which are not properly explained. Also, the problem of money comes only when importing or requiring huge amounts of natural resource. India had enough of aluminium, iron, coal, copper and many other minerals and resources needed. All that was needed was to dig out some of these and give to R&D. Efficient distribution of resources, increased taxes, voluntary contributions, war-phobia etc would have been used to get more support for defence build up. None of this was pursued. Research based on indigenous resources is not expensive. Only when the resource is external, it is expensive

Enough - don't make me laugh any more. You're killing me.
 
Ask the ones who built PARAM on what computer they designed it and wrote its code on. Come back and tell me if it' not on a Windows OS with Intel CPU inside it. This is what I mean leapfrogging. Again - this is only possible if you rely on foreign tech (which we most certainly are).
USA denied processors to China and they made their own. USA also denied processor to India and India did its own. USA then allowed India to get its processors. India can get its own processors even today. It is true that India leapfrogged by looking at others and research papers which are submitted in international forums. But that is still considered catching up. As of now, India has developed reasonably good chip fabrication for strategic needs. That is all that matters
Only fool here is you if you think F-16 and F-15 of 70s cannot take down Tejas. UTTAM is a prototype and is YEARS away from flying, let alone being accepted into service. It is not for no reason that IAF is buying ELM-2052 AESA from Israel for Jaguar upgrade.

And of course the BVR missile also is Israeli and so is the radar on Tejas (ELM-2032). :ROFLMAO:
Making emojis will not change reality. F16 in 1970s did not have high end radar guided BVR and that is why cannons became important in Vietnam. Have some sense before you say anything. Astra BVR is Indian and UTTAM radar is quite close to being inducted. India already has developed algorithm for BARS radar and making UTTAM is mainly about TR modules rather than basic algorithms. India does not want to rush into getting UTTAM prematurely as it is best to get fully developed and certified radar than rush. But that does not mean it is not fit enough or that it will take ten years to arrive.

Have Blue was designed to evade radar and that is what it did. That is grandfather of all stealth aircraft that exist today. If there was no Have Blue, there would be no F-117, no F-22 and certainly no AMCA (although AMCA only exists on paper as it is).
That does not matter whether blue whale was grandfather or grandmother of stealth. What matters is that it was unusable without computerised FBW. Stealth planes require a balance between aerodynamics and stealth which in turn needs computerised controls.

Indigenization does not mean screwdrivergiri. If so, then even Apple iPhone is indigenous to India
Indigenisation means made in India. Only retards call assembly as indigenous. You may be that but not me. Su30 MKI is indigenous, for example whereas Jaguar is not. That is the difference.
Show me where UTTAM is flying. They rigged up a ground test on Tejas nose and already you are daydreaming. Lol, you remind me of myself when I was 14 years old.
Here read this about test trials on Tejas LSP-2 with UTTAM radar. It has already been fitted. YOu are living in fantasies assuming whatever you want without having any logic or reason behind the timelines or assumptions you make.

They are what Army and IAF refer to Barak-8 as. They are names of the separate IA and IAF requirements under which Barak-8 was procured. There is no separate missile called MRSAM or LRSAM
And that is meant to be indigenised over time just like Su30 was indigenised. As you mentioned about leapfrogging, India is doing just that. But nevertheless, it will be indigenous. The main component left is radar. Seekers are in testing as I mentioned. So, regardless of whether it is BARAK-8 or not, it will be made in India and called MRSAM/LRSAM.

DRDO manages to rehash a 1960s Soviet missile and fanboys like you celebrate
Yeah, that missile is called SA-6. KUB is a new name I heard and had to check in internet. Nevertheless, Akash has top speed of 2.5-3 Mach whereas SA-6 has 1.8-2 Mach. That makes all the difference. Just because there was scud missile in 1950s does not mean that Agni missile is to be compared to that. India does take shortcuts and leapfrogs using imported technology for study and as a base. But the software is written by Indians only without anyone else giving codes

That's what idiots thought before Vietnam War happened and aircraft designers got a refresher on why cannon is necessary.
Yeah, I mentioned why there was no proper BVR missiles in vietnam war and cannon became important. But the same BVR worked in Gulf war 1 & 2.

Is that the 112th time that FOC was rescheduled? Or is it 113th? I'm sorry I forgot.
That was the first time FOC date was mentioned and that date has been sticking. If you hear the same thing 112 times does not make it anything new.

There is no rule that SSBN should only come in X size or displacement. Arihant is small because this is our first step. Later SSBNs will be larger.

Also, you have overlooked the fact that Arihant is too slow and too underpowered to be a real hunter killer SSN.
How is Arihant too slow? What makes Arihant so slow? Do you know that Kilo class submarine weighs 2400tons and has 5MW propulsion? The propulsion of Arihant class is 90MW with maximum electricity of 30MW. The propulsion is much higher than what Kilo class submarine would have even if scaled to 6000 ton weight.

The Scorpene submarines have 4-6MW for 2000ton weight. Scaling to 6000ton, we get propulsio as 12-18MW. With some extra needs, it can go upto 20MW. The propulsion of Arihant can be entire power of the reactor whereas the electricity generation is generally 33%. Even if we take electric generation alone, the power is more than enough to get good speed. So, the arihant has powerful reactor sufficient for propulsion as SSN.

There is no small SSBN. In fact it is easier to make big submarines than small ones as miniaturisation is a difficult process.
 
Making emojis will not change reality. F16 in 1970s did not have high end radar guided BVR and that is why cannons became important in Vietnam. Have some sense before you say anything.

Accha so why does even F-35 have cannon? This is perfect example of how you are putting the cart before the horse. Tejas gun is uncertified so you say gun is not necessary? So if Tejas had gun but BVR was not certified you will say BVR is unnecessary? Don't let the tail wag the dog.

Astra BVR is Indian

All I see launching from Tejas is Israeli Derby missile.

and UTTAM radar is quite close to being inducted.

Frame this line. We will talk again in 5 years.

India already has developed algorithm for BARS radar

Tell me what algorithm for Bars did India develop.

and making UTTAM is mainly about TR modules rather than basic algorithms.

Are you drunk?

India does not want to rush into getting UTTAM prematurely as it is best to get fully developed and certified radar than rush. But that does not mean it is not fit enough or that it will take ten years to arrive.

10 years is actually very valid time period for ANYONE to develop a new AESA radar. Russians been working on AESA for almost 15 years and operational model is still not ready. We are a long time from having a fully operational UTTAM that we can put on any aircraft and send it to war.

That does not matter whether blue whale was grandfather or grandmother of stealth. What matters is that it was unusable without computerised FBW. Stealth planes require a balance between aerodynamics and stealth which in turn needs computerised controls.

Accha. F-16 had computerized FBW because it was inherently unstable design straight from the start (1970s). Show me where is the stealth in that.

Tejas has FBW. So LCA is a stealth fighter?

Indigenisation means made in India.

Indigenous means the revenue from building something goes to Indian company. Not to some company from abroad. If the money is going out of India (which is the case for Su-30, Barak or the dozen other licensed manufacturing we do), then you have very skewed understanding of what we are talking about.

Only retards call assembly as indigenous. You may be that but not me. Su30 MKI is indigenous, for example whereas Jaguar is not. That is the difference.

Accha if we make heavy-class H-MRCA like Su-30MKI indigenously, then why are we having so much trouble making a small L-MRCA like Tejas?

If we are making a big PESA like Bars indigenously, then why we are unable to build ever a proper slotted-array radar for Tejas? Why we are forced to import ELM-2032 from Israel?

If we are making a huge turbofan like AL-31FP indigenously, then why are we unable to make even a small propeller engine for HTT-40? Why are we forced to import Honeywell engine from US?

Here read this about test trials on Tejas LSP-2 with UTTAM radar. It has already been fitted. YOu are living in fantasies assuming whatever you want without having any logic or reason behind the timelines or assumptions you make.

You are a moron. UTTAM been fitted for ground test, we even saw picture of that. LSP-2 was flying sorties prior to being fitted with UTTAM, not with it.

And that is meant to be indigenised over time just like Su30 was indigenised.

Another poor fool who mistakes screwdrivergiri for indigenous make.

So, regardless of whether it is BARAK-8 or not, it will be made in India and called MRSAM/LRSAM.

There is no MRSAM/LRSAM if you disregard Barak-8.

Yeah, that missile is called SA-6. KUB is a new name I heard and had to check in internet.

SA-6 is NATO name. Kub is original Russian name. Do you call S-400 as S-400 or do call it SA-21?

Anyway that is not the point. The point is that Akash is a copy of Kub.

Nevertheless, Akash has top speed of 2.5-3 Mach whereas SA-6 has 1.8-2 Mach. That makes all the difference.

Wow congratulations on making a small improvement over a missile that first flew in early 1960s!

Yeah, I mentioned why there was no proper BVR missiles in vietnam war and cannon became important. But the same BVR worked in Gulf war 1 & 2.

BVR? There was no proper WVRAAMs itself in Vietnam War. But the lesson which was learnt is that cannon is indispensable piece of equipment regardless of how advanced your missiles are. Disregard such lessons at your own peril. Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it again.

F-22-Raptor-shooting-gun.jpg

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^^ Those are jets far more advanced than Tejas and they all carry cannons for a reason. Unless you think you know more about air combat than IAF or USAF. And to tell the truth, even HAL and ADA agree that cannon is necessary - which is why they designed it into Tejas in the first place! They failed to make it work that is separate problem.

And you're honestly just making up excuses for their failures. If they really thought it was unnecessary why will they design it there in first place?

That was the first time FOC date was mentioned and that date has been sticking. If you hear the same thing 112 times does not make it anything new.

Tejas was supposed to be in service as of turn of the century as per words of APJ Abdul Kalam when he was in DRDO! The guys running the PSUs have no credibility, they eat their own words all the time so shamelessly that it is become a routine.

We who have been following Indian defence programs for about last 8 years know this only too well.

How is Arihant too slow? What makes Arihant so slow? Do you know that Kilo class submarine weighs 2400tons and has 5MW propulsion? The propulsion of Arihant class is 90MW with maximum electricity of 30MW. The propulsion is much higher than what Kilo class submarine would have even if scaled to 6000 ton weight.

The Scorpene submarines have 4-6MW for 2000ton weight. Scaling to 6000ton, we get propulsio as 12-18MW. With some extra needs, it can go upto 20MW. The propulsion of Arihant can be entire power of the reactor whereas the electricity generation is generally 33%. Even if we take electric generation alone, the power is more than enough to get good speed. So, the arihant has powerful reactor sufficient for propulsion as SSN.

Uh...you seem to have forgotten the fact that Arihant is a nuclear submarine and does not need to come up for air while Kilo and Scorpene have to surface every now and then. That's why for them low power output is enough. They can recharge their batteries when they surface. Arihant has to do this underwater and under its own power.

There is no small SSBN.

Yes there are. China's first SSBN was only marginally larger than Arihant. And the first SSBN ever built (American) was even lighter than Arihant.

In fact it is easier to make big submarines than small ones as miniaturisation is a difficult process.

There is no miniaturization. There is just less stuff.

This is like saying hatchback is a miniaturized SUV. Such comments come from people who don't really understand the meaning of the words they are saying. How is it miniaturized? The steering wheel on hatchback is the same size as the steering wheel on SUV. Both are designed to accommodate the same 6 ft tall human being.

A miniaturized SUV means this:

1-24-mod-le-de-voiture-mod-le-de-Simulation-de-voiture-couleur-perle-alliage-mod.jpg
 
Tell me what algorithm for Bars did India develop.
What do I know about it? But the BARS radar has Indian made processing. How can I tell you the algorithm? All I can tell is that it is Indian developed codes.
All I see launching from Tejas is Israeli Derby missile.
Yah and confirmation of Astra integration also is there. It may not be shown in big videos but it is there
10 years is actually very valid time period for ANYONE to develop a new AESA radar. Russians been working on AESA for almost 15 years and operational model is still not ready. We are a long time from having a fully operational UTTAM that we can put on any aircraft and send it to war.
That 10 years started from 2013. You can say that we are in the 6th year now. So, another 4 years to go for all trials to complete. Hard to understand?
Accha. F-16 had computerized FBW because it was inherently unstable design straight from the start (1970s). Show me where is the stealth in that.

Tejas has FBW. So LCA is a stealth fighter?
It is not necessary to have only unstable design to get FBW. But it is mandatory for unstable design to get FBW. F16 is slightly unstable design but not fully. Stealth involves drastically unstable design. Stability and instability is not binary

Indigenous means the revenue from building something goes to Indian company. Not to some company from abroad. If the money is going out of India (which is the case for Su-30, Barak or the dozen other licensed manufacturing we do), then you have very skewed understanding of what we are talking about.
As long as the know how is in India and the items are made from raw material stage in India, it is indigenous. Money is irrelevant. ToT is what matters

Accha if we make heavy-class H-MRCA like Su-30MKI indigenously, then why are we having so much trouble making a small L-MRCA like Tejas?
Because the technology is different. Just because USA has F16 does not mean they will be able to make Gripen in 5 years. Also, India got full ToT in 2014-15 only for Su30. The contract was signed in 2004 and it took 10 years for the phased stages of indigenisation
If we are making a big PESA like Bars indigenously, then why we are unable to build ever a proper slotted-array radar for Tejas? Why we are forced to import ELM-2032 from Israel?
We are capable of making a PESA for Tejas. We just want Tejas to be state of the art with AESA. Each AESA costs 3-5 million dollars and can be afforded for 100 planes.
If we are making a huge turbofan like AL-31FP indigenously, then why are we unable to make even a small propeller engine for HTT-40? Why are we forced to import Honeywell engine from US?
Al31FP is a big engine and of older generation. It has bypass ratio of 0.6 and yet the TWR is not high enough. India wants lower bypass ratio engine with slightly higher TWR compared to Al31F. Al31F is about 4th generation engine whereas we want 4.5 generation one. Also, Al31F started being made in full by FY15 only. Before that there was a phased indigenisation programme.
Wow congratulations on making a small improvement over a missile that first flew in early 1960s!
Speed improvement of RAMJET by 1 Mach from 1.8-2 to 2.5-3 is not a small improvement. It is like saying Agni-5 is a small improvement over scud missiles.
BVR? There was no proper WVRAAMs itself in Vietnam War. But the lesson which was learnt is that cannon is indispensable piece of equipment regardless of how advanced your missiles are. Disregard such lessons at your own peril. Those who
fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it again.
Here is your evidence for Tejas cannon trial on the ground. There is no confirmation or denial of air trial yet.

Tejas was supposed to be in service as of turn of the century as per words of APJ Abdul Kalam when he was in DRDO! The guys running the PSUs have no credibility, they eat their own words all the time so shamelessly that it is become a routine.

We who have been following Indian defence programs for about last 8 years know this only too well.
Tejas took first flight in 2001 and it was supposed to be finished by 2012. UPA came in the way of completion. That was what happened. So, there is 5-6 years delay. This is not routine. All you have to do is subtract 5-6 years from the UPA era since FY2008 to FY2014

Uh...you seem to have forgotten the fact that Arihant is a nuclear submarine and does not need to come up for air while Kilo and Scorpene have to surface every now and then. That's why for them low power output is enough. They can recharge their batteries when they surface. Arihant has to do this underwater and under its own power.
Coming up to air or not is irrelevant. The maximum power of engines is 6MW (I am not sure if it is 4 or 6 as there are variants of the same engine model). That is less compared to Arihant in all formats - submerged or not.

Yes there are. China's first SSBN was only marginally larger than Arihant. And the first SSBN ever built (American) was even lighter than Arihant.
China's first SSBN was Type 092. It was 8000tons in weight and had much smaller reactor of 60MW in power (size of reactor may have been bigger than Arihant but not miniaturised enough in power generation). The submarine still had torpedo tubes in addition to MRBM. Indian Arihant has reactor which is 150% powerful and is 25% smaller than Type092. In per ton weight, Type 092 had half the power of Arihant and yet it had torpedoes to act as SSN-cum-SSBN.

There is no miniaturization. There is just less stuff.

This is like saying hatchback is a miniaturized SUV. Such comments come from people who don't really understand the meaning of the words they are saying. How is it miniaturized? The steering wheel on hatchback is the same size as the steering wheel on SUV. Both are designed to accommodate the same 6 ft tall human being.

A miniaturized SUV means this:

1-24-mod-le-de-voiture-mod-le-de-Simulation-de-voiture-couleur-perle-alliage-mod.jpg
Are you childish? How about miniaturisation of PWR reactor in submarine? Do you think bigger submarines have more reactors? Why do you show SUV? Why not show computers?

1535194202595.png


to this:
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Why not. A modern jet of 12T empty can easily reach a maximum weight of 30T
Rafale has weight of 10.5 ton and yet it does not have 30 ton MToW. Also, AMCA has internal bays and larger fuel tank which adds to increased body size and hence increased weight. So, despite 10-12% increased empty weight compared to Rafale, the capacity need not be high. Also, the aerodynamics of stealth planes is a trade-off between stealth and efficiency. So, there will be some delinquency in MToW to compensate.
 
Rafale has weight of 10.5 ton and yet it does not have 30 ton MToW. Also, AMCA has internal bays and larger fuel tank which adds to increased body size and hence increased weight. So, despite 10-12% increased empty weight compared to Rafale, the capacity need not be high. Also, the aerodynamics of stealth planes is a trade-off between stealth and efficiency. So, there will be some delinquency in MToW to compensate.
Has???? - Pal !! all this is on paper - Please wait till the actual prototype is built and flying!
 
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@randomradio how come you keep saying MTOW will touch 30 ton ?

At 12T empty, 17m length and a massive TWR, it will be a crappy aircraft if it doesn't touch 30T.

Rafale weighs 9.5T and hits 25T at MTOW. That's the gold standard. The difference between MTOW and empty weight is 2.6 times. By the same standards, with 12T at empty AMCA should be 31.6T. We can relax that to 28-30T instead, since AMCA is designed more for stealth, so we will have less hardpoints.

Higher MTOW = Bigger payload.

But from the brochure, it suggests that the AMCA's total payload will only be 6.5T, including internal bays. And the external hardpoints is only 4 in total carrying 5T. Which will give it an MTOW of only 25T.

If external stores is only 5T, then I suppose one wing point is 1.75T and the other is 0.75T. Normally, they should be 2T each, so you have an external payload of 8T. With 2T payload on each hardpoint, you can carry 4 2200L tanks externally, which Rafale can easily do.

Internal stores is advertised as 1.5T, which again, should be 2.5T, which will allow at least an F-35 class payload capability, with cruise missiles and large bombs.

With 10.5T payload, you get 29T MTOW. With 6.5T payload, you get 25T MTOW.

At 30T MTOW, AMCA will have a TWR of 0.73, while Rafale's TWR will be 0.6 at 25T. So AMCA has more than enough thrust to cross 30T MTOW.
 
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Rafale has weight of 10.5 ton and yet it does not have 30 ton MToW. Also, AMCA has internal bays and larger fuel tank which adds to increased body size and hence increased weight. So, despite 10-12% increased empty weight compared to Rafale, the capacity need not be high. Also, the aerodynamics of stealth planes is a trade-off between stealth and efficiency. So, there will be some delinquency in MToW to compensate.
Rafale M (naval model, the heavier) is 10.5T empty.
rafale C (single seater air variant) is 9.9 tons empty. For now it is cleared for 27.5 T MTOW.

So a 12 T empty can reach 30T more or less. ( extrapolation from rafale : 27.5 x 12 / 9.9 = 33.3T )
 
Has???? - Pal !! all this is on paper - Please wait till the actual prototype is built and flying!
Yup, on paper only. But it is the design thought and preliminary design is already ready.

At 12T empty, 17m length and a massive TWR, it will be a crappy aircraft if it doesn't touch 30T.
AMCA will be solely for air superiority role and nothing else. It will be only used for eliminating enemy airforce without any ground role. In case of ground strike, it has 4 external stores for the bombs +2 wing tips

Rafale weighs 9.5T and hits 25T at MTOW. That's the gold standard. The difference between MTOW and empty weight is 2.6 times. By the same standards, with 12T at empty AMCA should be 31.6T. We can relax that to 28-30T instead, since AMCA is designed more for stealth, so we will have less hardpoints.
Rafale has empty weight 10.5 tons and MToW of 24tons. The ratio is 2.3. Tejas has empty weight of 6.5tons and MToW of 14 tons, ratio being 2.15. So, I would not say that 25ton MToW is bad. Ratio will be about 2.1 for 25/12.

But from the brochure, it suggests that the AMCA's total payload will only be 6.5T, including internal bays. And the external hardpoints is only 4 in total carrying 5T. Which will give it an MTOW of only 25T.
There are wingtip BVR/WVR stations and hence 4 external stores + 2 AAM stations, total of 6.

At 30T MTOW, AMCA will have a TWR of 0.73, while Rafale's TWR will be 0.6 at 25T. So AMCA has more than enough thrust to cross 30T MTOW.
Rafale is better in aerodynamics as stealth problem does not exist. AMCA is less efficient. Also, you should consider dry thrust only as wet thrust is undesirable in general due to fuel inefficiency.

Rafale M (naval model, the heavier) is 10.5T empty.
rafale C (single seater air variant) is 9.9 tons empty. For now it is cleared for 27.5 T MTOW.

So a 12 T empty can reach 30T more or less. ( extrapolation from rafale : 27.5 x 12 / 9.9 = 33.3T )
I suspect Rafale can take off with 24 ton considering EF Typhoon with bigger engine has MToW of 24tons. Rafale has smaller engines of 50/75kN. I am really surprised as to how Rafale can have same MToW as EF Typhoon. Now you are saying 27.5 tons? That will need 60/90kN engine even if I take the original 24 ton MToW for the smaller engines to be true

There are several other things to consider about AMCA:
1) The engine is likely to be Kaveri with 62/98kN thrust in twin format to maintain logistical similarity with engines of Tejas MK2. If we take only dry thrust, the engine is only slightly better than EF Typhoon. So, MToW of 25ton compares with MToW of 24tons for EF Typhoon.
2) Stealth of AMCA compromises lift and aerodynamic nature due to which some reduction in MToW will be there to maintain speed and other parameters
3) Internal bays and extra fuel of 6ton increases the size of the body and hence empty weight. But that is not contributing to better aerodynamics and hence MToW will not increase but may even decrease.
 
Rafale is better in aerodynamics as stealth problem does not exist.
No !

Between the Rafale A demonstrator and the serial Rafale C, at the special request of UAE, a stealth target was include.
This is why despite having the same global look, and specially the same wings arrangement, the 2 planes has no précise shape and no component in common.
 
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I suspect Rafale can take off with 24 ton considering EF Typhoon with bigger engine has MToW of 24tons. Rafale has smaller engines of 50/75kN. I am really surprised as to how Rafale can have same MToW as EF Typhoon. Now you are saying 27.5 tons? That will need 60/90kN engine even if I take the original 24 ton MToW for the smaller engines to be true
It not only a question of engine power (at a certain extent).
Rafale is a close coupled canard. EF not. CCC increase the lift. And Dassault is THE delta specialist in the world. EF not.
Whith 2 external "subsonic" 2000L tanks, Rafale can reach mach 1.6 in full reheat (tested one time, so as to shut the mouth of some saying rafale is under powered). That means 2x7.5T is more than enough.
Rafale aerodynamic is a must. It helps reducing the power for a same level of performance.
 
I remember asking Dassault Vice Pres. in charge PR if Dassault wished to involve itself in AMCA (in parallel with SCAF). He answered "the only thing i can tell you is that Dassault intends to have a long cooperation in India. We are going there to stay there"
 
I remember asking Dassault Vice Pres. in charge PR if Dassault wished to involve itself in AMCA (in parallel with SCAF). He answered "the only thing i can tell you is that Dassault intends to have a long cooperation in India. We are going there to stay there"
In parallel with SCAF, why not developping 50/50 with india a Rafale XL ? (Dassault bring its skill, India bring its market).
=> Using the technology of Rafale (ie using a potential indian assembly line and indian suppliers of the actual Rafale)
=> bigger, so as to fit a 10T Safranized Kaveri and somes internal bays (for exemple by spacing the 2 engines and using the space between for one long bay).
=> with the attributes of the so called US 5th gen stealth : 2 outcantered fins, faceted nose, parallelogram air intakes...
 
In parallel with SCAF, why not developping 50/50 with india a Rafale XL ? (Dassault bring its skill, India bring its market).
=> Using the technology of Rafale (ie using a potential indian assembly line and indian suppliers of the actual Rafale)
=> bigger, so as to fit a 10T Safranized Kaveri and somes internal bays (for exemple by spacing the 2 engines and using the space between for one long bay).
=> with the attributes of the so called US 5th gen stealth : 2 outcantered fins, faceted nose, parallelogram air intakes...

Participating in the regular planned future development of the Rafale is more than enough.