Aero India 2023 - Bengaluru

Chain Smoker said:
Yes but the deal was under iddm so it will be fraud if some foreign system is allowed to participate.
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IDDM allows foreign participation. Only the indigenisation percentage is different for each category.

‘Buy (Indian-IDDM)’ category refers to the acquisition of products from an Indian vendor that have been indigenously designed, developed and manufactured with a minimum of 50% Indigenous Content (IC) on cost basis of the base contract price i.e. total contract price less taxes and duties.

‘Buy (Indian)’ category refers to the acquisition of products from an Indian vendor which may not have been designed and developed indigenously, having 60% IC on cost basis of the base contract price. Vendors eligible in ‘Buy (Indian-IDDM)’ category will also be permitted to participate in this category with indigenous design and a minimum of 50% IC on cost basis of the base contract price.

procurement.png


And...
In order to leverage the highly developed indigenous software expertise existing in the country, it is pertinent that maximum equipment should function with indigenous software (certification by the Statutory Auditor of the Bidder that the software has been developed within India) driving the desired applications while the backend software i.e. Operating Systems continues to be OEM defined. The RFI process should clearly identify availability of indigenous software for running applications on the equipment/system and its analysis should determine whether the project should mandatorily require the vendors to base applications being run on their solution (especially critical components like Fire Control System, Radars, Communications, Encryption sub systems) on indigenous software in Buy (Indian – IDDM) and Buy (Indian) cases. In case the requirement is not made mandatory, Enhanced Performance Parameters (EPP) with respect to indigenous software should be defined with commensurate credit score (as per Paragraph 14 (c) of Chapter II) in the SQRs to provide for the enhanced capability being offered.

So there's a lot of work involved in IDDM.
 
randomradio said:
IDDM allows foreign participation. Only the indigenisation percentage is different for each category.

‘Buy (Indian-IDDM)’ category refers to the acquisition of products from an Indian vendor that have been indigenously designed, developed and manufactured with a minimum of 50% Indigenous Content (IC) on cost basis of the base contract price i.e. total contract price less taxes and duties.

‘Buy (Indian)’ category refers to the acquisition of products from an Indian vendor which may not have been designed and developed indigenously, having 60% IC on cost basis of the base contract price. Vendors eligible in ‘Buy (Indian-IDDM)’ category will also be permitted to participate in this category with indigenous design and a minimum of 50% IC on cost basis of the base contract price.

View attachment 26565

And...
In order to leverage the highly developed indigenous software expertise existing in the country, it is pertinent that maximum equipment should function with indigenous software (certification by the Statutory Auditor of the Bidder that the software has been developed within India) driving the desired applications while the backend software i.e. Operating Systems continues to be OEM defined. The RFI process should clearly identify availability of indigenous software for running applications on the equipment/system and its analysis should determine whether the project should mandatorily require the vendors to base applications being run on their solution (especially critical components like Fire Control System, Radars, Communications, Encryption sub systems) on indigenous software in Buy (Indian – IDDM) and Buy (Indian) cases. In case the requirement is not made mandatory, Enhanced Performance Parameters (EPP) with respect to indigenous software should be defined with commensurate credit score (as per Paragraph 14 (c) of Chapter II) in the SQRs to provide for the enhanced capability being offered.

So there's a lot of work involved in IDDM.
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Did you missed out the point indigenously designed & developed whereas l&t is just screwdriving Israeli radar all the critical component will come from outside.
 
Chain Smoker said:
Did you missed out the point indigenously designed & developed whereas l&t is just screwdriving Israeli radar all the critical component will come from outside.
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50% of the components will be Indian though, along with the software. The form factor is a small part of the whole.
 
Chain Smoker said:
What about IP? But In case of LRDE developed radar it will be at least 80-90 pc now take your pick.
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Okay, I'm not arguing for the L&T radar, just pointing out that IDDM has foreign involvement, but there's at least minimum 50% Indian IP in it. And it can always be more than that.

As long as the better radar is selected, it's all good. The final decision must be merit based rather than how Indian it is (nepotism based). If LRDE loses, it just means they need to do better.

The procurement process is designed such that you get more weightage based on indigenisation percentage. So if both radars meet the same specs, then the LRDE radar will be selected due to higher indigenisation. If the LRDE radar fails, then no matter how Indian it is, it's trash.
 
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randomradio said:
Okay, I'm not arguing for the L&T radar, just pointing out that IDDM has foreign involvement, but there's at least minimum 50% Indian IP in it. And it can always be more than that.

As long as the better radar is selected, it's all good. The final decision must be merit based rather than how Indian it is (nepotism based). If LRDE loses, it just means they need to do better.

The procurement process is designed such that you get more weightage based on indigenisation percentage. So if both radars meet the same specs, then the LRDE radar will be selected due to higher indigenisation. If the LRDE radar fails, then no matter how Indian it is, it's trash.
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Lrde radar lost due to L1.
 
Chain Smoker said:
Lrde radar lost due to L1.
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Old strategy that DPSU's aren't acquainted with to as they're used to monopolies. Drop the price of acquisition & earn thru AMCs i.e Annual Maintenance Contracts .

Check for price difference between L1 & L2 . Also check for scope of AMCs . I doubt LCCs are a feature of these contracts .
 
Chain Smoker said:
Lrde radar lost due to L1.
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Yeah, which means the difference in indigenisation level wasn't good enough to bridge the gap in capabilities. So we got the better radar in the end, and cheaper.

Alternatively, the LRDE radar was so much more capable that the increase in price wasn't justifiable, so its 10% leeway in price differential wasn't good enough for L1.
 
Chain Smoker said:
Yes but the deal was under iddm so it will be fraud if some foreign system is allowed to participate.
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foreign makers got some extra clause & jv with Indian company/local content to bypass it. Israeli companies do exactly that & now other companies also signing mou etc. My guess is its done intentionally by Gov & MoD after the services feedback and they are not avert to foreign item in indian pack/also want to give local companies some leeway to learn expertise by collab wherever there is deficit before placing items on negative lists.
 
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marich01 said:
foreign makers got some extra clause & jv with Indian company/local content to bypass it. Israeli companies do exactly that & now other companies also signing mou etc. My guess is its done intentionally by Gov & MoD after the services feedback and they are not avert to foreign item in indian pack/also want to give local companies some leeway to learn expertise by collab wherever there is deficit before placing items on negative lists.
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Local companies are only interested in screwdrivegiri. If there is indigenous system available (even it's costly) then no point in ordering foreign system. If screwdrivegiri is continued in the excuse of giving support to private company then we will never be able to Achieve aatmanirbharta .

It is also sending a very wrong message to the companies who are investing on R&d , days are not far when they will stop investing on it & will only do screwdrivegiri. Hopefully it is stopped very soon otherwise it will be very detrimental for local industry and R&D.
https://twitter.com/x/status/1624726457649094660
 
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Chain Smoker said:
Local companies are only interested in screwdrivegiri. If there is indigenous system available (even it's costly) then no point in ordering foreign system. If screwdrivegiri is continued in the excuse of giving support to private company then we will never be able to Achieve aatmanirbharta .

It is also sending a very wrong message to the companies who are investing on R&d , days are not far when they will stop investing on it & will only do screwdrivegiri. Hopefully it is stopped very soon otherwise it will be very detrimental for local industry and R&D.
https://twitter.com/x/status/1624726457649094660
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That is true, and its more to do with mindset of the business house than govt side or somewhat related with the armed forces side as well who prefer a trusted product. Our industry big houses face multiple problems on this from, one being defense sectors companies do not want to be OEMs themselves, that mentality is due to multi factor, investment issue , unwillingness to work in R&D at competitive level, top management are all 30-40 years veteran so business decision made by them almost always reflect safe investor & profit margin based factor.
Also have to factor defense sector was regarded hush hush by Govt policy due to sensitiveness of arms proliferation. There was no incentive before to make major part of defense production inside the country. Now in the past 4-5 years and specifically from last year it is changing a bit thanks to govt initiative. Some companies will still keep trust on their tested method ie what you said, a few will dare to venture ahead. We will get a good idea now Govt is getting export target. You won't be able to fulfill that with mere ckd combining.
 
marich01 said:
That is true, and its more to do with mindset of the business house than govt side or somewhat related with the armed forces side as well who prefer a trusted product. Our industry big houses face multiple problems on this from, one being defense sectors companies do not want to be OEMs themselves, that mentality is due to multi factor, investment issue , unwillingness to work in R&D at competitive level, top management are all 30-40 years veteran so business decision made by them almost always reflect safe investor & profit margin based factor.
Also have to factor defense sector was regarded hush hush by Govt policy due to sensitiveness of arms proliferation. There was no incentive before to make major part of defense production inside the country. Now in the past 4-5 years and specifically from last year it is changing a bit thanks to govt initiative. Some companies will still keep trust on their tested method ie what you said, a few will dare to venture ahead. We will get a good idea now Govt is getting export target. You won't be able to fulfill that with mere ckd combining.
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Bottom line if you've a government with clarity in it's goalsetting, focus on achieving them & honesty of purpose all these weeds which've sprung up will be cleared away.

Granted there'd be errors of judgment , some slippages , etc but eventually if the government has the afore mentioned attributes course correction will happen. OTOH if you've a Congress like dispensation we're screwed.
 
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