Air Battle over Kashmir : MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16

[RATHORE]

*off

Was going to write 'on hold' ... messed up



No, just giving a reprieve. Or .. to be a sadist ... last breath of air before suffocating ....

This was my initial belief too (that WCo Abhi getting shot down and ending up in Pakistani hands would force us to hold off any subsequent plans).

I was kind of upset about it; but it is what it is. Hopefully we get another juicy full toss some day. And I hope the RoE and preparation are both better next time.

 

[vstol Jockey]

Have you guys wondered as to why every aircraft in that area heard the call to go cold except ABHI? His no-2 had to dodge an AMRAAM and so got detached from his leader as his leader showed no inclination to stick to formation integrity as he had a lock on. Had the No-2 been with him, WC Nauman Ali would have also been shot down. Once the leader decides to attack, it is the duty of no-2 to keep his tail clear and attack anyone trying to attack his leader.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Have you guys wondered as to why every aircraft in that area heard the call to go cold except ABHI? His no-2 had to dodge an AMRAAM and so got detached from his leader as his leader showed no inclination to stick to formation integrity as he had a lock on. Had the No-2 been with him, WC Nauman Ali would have also been shot down. Once the leader decides to attack, it is the duty of no-2 to keep his tail clear and attack anyone trying to attack his leader.

With the existing fleet size , 24 hour CAPs are not possible

So we need to get more Akash and Spyder SAMs

Pakistan will again carry out these Wolf pack attacks

 

[vstol Jockey]

With the existing fleet size , 24 hour CAPs are not possible

So we need to get more Akash and Spyder SAMs

Pakistan will again carry out these Wolf pack attacks

You don't know the whole picture. There were people who completely failed to analyse the situation except for that lady controller. Things would have been much different had it not been for her. Jab stithi durgam ho, Tab Durga ka Janam Hota hai.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

You don't know the whole picture. There were people who completely failed to analyse the situation except for that lady controller. Things would have been much different had it not been for her. Jab stithi durgam ho, Tab Durga ka Janam Hota hai.

So everytime a PAF plane takes off , which airbase in India should be activated

Their tactic was good , multiple take offs
At same time from different airbases and
All converged at POK

 

[Deathstar]

You don't know the whole picture. There were people who completely failed to analyse the situation except for that lady controller. Things would have been much different had it not been for her. Jab stithi durgam ho, Tab Durga ka Janam Hota hai.

Sir then what about the accountability of those who failed to analyse?why no CoI or report etc?

 

[Austerlitz]

The pathetic thing is with all these advantages of surprise,local superiority, jamming,better bvr the best the paf had to offer couldnt hit a single target and had to satisfy themselves with a 50 yr old mig21 in exchange for a f16.Shergills indeed.
If this was for example an airforce like the israelis we would have taken huge losses.
IAF has focused too much on helicopters this decade.

 

[vstol Jockey]

So everytime a PAF plane takes off , which airbase in India should be activated

Their tactic was good , multiple take offs
At same time from different airbases and
All converged at POK

When you see something of this kind and also anticipating it after what you did the previous day, you should have had your tails up and trigger live. It was not the case on 27th. Someone was in deep sleep, either ACM or his stupid C-in-Cs.

Sir then what about the accountability of those who failed to analyse?why no CoI or report etc?

Who will ask the ACM and his C-in-Cs? Please remember for all battle losses and stupid plans, its only the juniors who get *censored*ed.

The pathetic thing is with all these advantages of surprise,local superiority, jamming,better bvr the best the paf had to offer couldnt hit a single target and had to satisfy themselves with a 50 yr old mig21 in exchange for a f16.Shergills indeed.
If this was for example an airforce like the israelis we would have taken huge losses.
IAF has focused too much on helicopters this decade.

The stupidity of Abhi saved the day for us and call it a victory but the actual victory belongs to the GCIOs and the other Mig-21s which got airborne in no time. The lady who has been given Yudh Seva Medal deserved much higher appriciation. Women are hardwired by God with sixth sense to see the danger and act in a manner to overcome them.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

The pathetic thing is with all these advantages of surprise,local superiority, jamming,better bvr the best the paf had to offer couldnt hit a single target and had to satisfy themselves with a 50 yr old mig21 in exchange for a f16.Shergills indeed.
If this was for example an airforce like the israelis we would have taken huge losses.
IAF has focused too much on helicopters this decade.

That is why we need better SAM coverage

24 hour CAPs are not possible

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

When you see something of this kind and also anticipating it after what you did the previous day, you should have had your tails up and trigger live. It was not the case on 27th. Someone was in deep sleep, either ACM or his stupid C-in-Cs.

We need a better Retaliation Readiness plan

For instance again they will be able to converge 20 odd F 16s in POK , then we also must hit the Air bases immediately

No CCS clearance Post Facto

If an attack is expected , then Counter Attack must also happen immediately

 

[vstol Jockey]

If an attack is expected , then Counter Attack must also happen immediately

Sorry, No counter attack. only Attack.

 

[Ashwathama]

The pathetic thing is with all these advantages of surprise,local superiority, jamming,better bvr the best the paf had to offer couldnt hit a single target and had to satisfy themselves with a 50 yr old mig21 in exchange for a f16.Shergills indeed.
If this was for example an airforce like the israelis we would have taken huge losses.
IAF has focused too much on helicopters this decade.

Forget Israelis, what if it was Chinese. They would have attacked with even more numbers at multiple places. We would be screwed in a two front war. Laughing at Pakistani *censored*ups does not mean we are doing everything right.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Sorry, No counter attack. only Attack.

In my View , it was NOT Abhinandan' s Captivity but the Elections that stopped everything in its track

Govt did not want more PR disasters

For Eg in Kargil , When Nachiketa was captured , Nobody in India said a word

That time The objective was absolutely clear

 

[Sulla84]

Keelor Brothers shot down one sabre each in 1965. They were hailed as heroes. But many more guys shot down Sabres and also F-104 starfighters after that. Can anyone recall any such name? They shot down the Sabres when they were not even in a full fledged war and PAF guys were not expecting them. Other pilots shot the PAF aircraft in actual combat during a dogfight. Keelor brothers never did any air combat, they got vectored in and had a free shot at the targets. It was like a duck shoot. They are heroes but those who actually did combat and then shot down the enemy are not even known.
Adm Arun Prakash (Retd) got a medal in 1971. he never enegaged anyone in air combat but destroyed aircraft on ground and one of them was the one owned by the famous american ACE. Others did more damage but did not get the medals. I have served in 20sqn IAF and read the true war history. Infact I was the one in-charge of that book in 1991-1992.

You served both in IAF and as a naval aviator..?

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1161672585911787520

 

[Ashwathama]

You served both in IAF and as a naval aviator..?

 

[Freezerdam]

When you see something of this kind and also anticipating it after what you did the previous day, you should have had your tails up and trigger live. It was not the case on 27th. Someone was in deep sleep, either ACM or his stupid C-in-Cs.

Who will ask the ACM and his C-in-Cs? Please remember for all battle losses and stupid plans, its only the juniors who get *censored*ed.

The stupidity of Abhi saved the day for us and call it a victory but the actual victory belongs to the GCIOs and the other Mig-21s which got airborne in no time. The lady who has been given Yudh Seva Medal deserved much higher appriciation. Women are hardwired by God with sixth sense to see the danger and act in a manner to overcome them.

May be this Lady officer informed prior to that time...May be some one of higher authority did not noticed due to A big MALE Ego. I already told in the forum that why they failed to analyze that PAF gaining strength in Air.... Nobody's are blamed for this lapses, incompetencies till now and it is a big surprise for a Professional AIR FORCE...

 

[Bali78]

Yes. You have to do that and at times a person should have been courtmarshalled is declared a hero. The real heroes are not even sung and spoken about. We have seen what the MARCOS did in Kashmir who got medals today.

What did they do ? Can you please elaborate if it’s not confidential?

 

[Gautam]

What did they do ? Can you please elaborate if it’s not confidential?

Well the MARCOS recently had a very intimate meeting with the SSG(N) around the LoC. We don't know where it happened, but the MARCOS are very active around the Wular lake. Now they are getting awarded, you can make your own guesses as to what went down.

Go through this thread for some gallantry awards given to various Navy operators :

https://twitter.com/x/status/1161591267429502976

 

[DivineHeretic]

The pathetic thing is with all these advantages of surprise,local superiority, jamming,better bvr the best the paf had to offer couldnt hit a single target and had to satisfy themselves with a 50 yr old mig21 in exchange for a f16.Shergills indeed.
If this was for example an airforce like the israelis we would have taken huge losses.
IAF has focused too much on helicopters this decade.

IAF focused far too much on what it didn't have, to the detriment of what it actually possessed. It neglected to optimize what it held in favour of crying over what it didn't. The only air Force to have this wholesale crying syndrome, bar none.

The absurdity of IAF position was driven home during the recent MKI crash. I got a text message saying "There goes another aircraft BS Dhanoa could fly in to Delhi to beg for more Rafales". In the hands of the IAF the mighty MKI has been relegated to a tier 2 asset