Air Battle over Kashmir : MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16

Pakistan never lacked the will to attack. In the entire history of its existence, it was always the first to strike. Even when its probability of achieving the objective is low (71), misjudging the foes will to fight (65) or sheer stupidity (99). Nothing stopped the military state to go berserk in its hope to find relevance.

And the Indians never misjudged you, at least in this regard. It's certain that there will be a response and we were adequately prepared. What we did not expect is ISPR owning up to the balakot strike so publically. Everyone assumed that the response will be of denial like that of surgical strike.

On the flipside, Pakistani deep state was stunned at the Indian resolve to strike its 'mainland' with no regard for consequences. The hard realization that days of 'nuclear bluff' are over and repeated 'strikes' need to be answered became imperative.

End of the day, the balance of power has recalibrated.

@The Deterrent @Falcon


The single important thing that Balakot has done is - it showed Pakistan that it cannot hide behind "We will nuke you" phrase any more.
Up to that point, I can post infinite number of videos of who's who in Pakistan threatening India with nukes. That day, since the strike, I don't recall any one has said that Pakistan will nuke India.

Now coming to why ISPR did the 'unthinkable' and publicly owned up to the strike - the common people of Pakistan.
These people were kept under the impression that in case of slightest misadventure of India, they will burn India with nukes.
Now, when Indian jets bombed their mainland, the expectation of the general public was, it's time to do as promised and burn their eternal enemy to the ground. Here, this became a problem, as delivery of nukes is no joke, and Pakistan does't have systems that can annihilate India - meaning the response from India would have been total annihilation of Pakistan, which they couldn't afford.

Therefore, the entire facade, just to appease their public.
Had W. CDR. Abhinandan not crossed the loc that day, Pakistan would have had a serious issue achieving their actual objective, as their people would have asked for something concrete which they certainly didn't have.

Whats even more interesting is, their attempt to keep the Balakot incident alive for as long as possible - and we are kind of playing in their hands here. Reason ? Psywar. The fact that we lost a jet and pilot was PoW, they are indirectly trying to use this as a deterrence against any further IAF/IA raids, as, if this doesn't work, Pakistan is doomed and they know it better than we do.
 
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Pakistan never lacked the will to attack. In the entire history of its existence, it was always the first to strike. Even when its probability of achieving the objective is low (71), misjudging the foes will to fight (65) or sheer stupidity (99). Nothing stopped the military state to go berserk in its hope to find relevance.

And the Indians never misjudged you, at least in this regard. It's certain that there will be a response and we were adequately prepared. What we did not expect is ISPR owning up to the balakot strike so publically. Everyone assumed that the response will be of denial like that of surgical strike.

On the flipside, Pakistani deep state was stunned at the Indian resolve to strike its 'mainland' with no regard for consequences. The hard realization that days of 'nuclear bluff' are over and repeated 'strikes' need to be answered became imperative.

End of the day, the balance of power has recalibrated.

@The Deterrent @Falcon

Instead of denying the strikes took place, no different from the post-Uri surgical strikes, they decided to say the strikes missed their targets instead.

I think even they realised they screwed up by publicising the Balakot strikes. They could have continued to be in advantage by maintaining silence about the strikes and continued peddling the story that terror strikes on India do not have any consequences to Pakistanis. Instead they got pressured into striking back, and things would have gotten more out of control had Abhinandan not got caught, which would have completely played into India's hands. This time they got lucky.
 
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Air Marshal (retd) C. Harikumar about the Air battle

As soon as the Mirages reached their bases, we declared a pan-India air defence alert. We were prepared for a full-blown conventional war, but we made all out efforts not to escalate the conflict.

Yet, we were certain that Pakistan would retaliate quickly. The next day, February 27, saw action from their side. Our air defence was on full alert; the AWACS was on station northeast of Adampur in the morning and so were the aircraft on combat air patrol. At 9:42am, the Integrated Air Command and Control Station warned of an increase in air activity over Pakistan. Fighters were launched from Kamra, Murid, Chander, Sargodha, Rafiqui and Jacobabad. They were at medium altitude, and some had their friend-or-foe identification on initially. That was a decoy—they were showing themselves on our radar to make it seem like routine activity; some aircraft tried to hide at low altitude. Some of these airfields are close to the border and fighters are routinely airborne for training. Unless hostile intent is seen, taking action would require a lot of effort.

Soon, PAF fighters regrouped and turned east for the attack. The first enemy package crossed the border in the Line of Control sector at 9:58am on the Akhnoor axis, and approached the LoC around 10:06am. Another package approached the Poonch axis, staggered by five to seven minutes. A third package was opposite Anupgarh sector.

Each package had eight to ten aircraft, supported by multiple combat air patrols, Saab 2000s and Dassault Falcon 20s for electronic support. On our side there were two upgraded Mirages on combat air patrol east of Udhampur, and two Su-30s near Srinagar. Two MiG-21 Bisons were scrambled in two lots (10:01am and 10:03am) from Srinagar, two Bisons from Awantipur, two MiG-29s from Adampur and two Su-30s each from Halwara, Bathinda and Jodhpur.

The PAF ensured that they did not cross the International Boundary or the Line of Actual Control. Two MiG-21 Bisons, flown by Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman and Squadron Leader Vyas, were scrambled from Srinagar at 10:03am for the package on the Poonch axis. On reaching the sector, Abhinandan spotted enemy aircraft at low level, and the radar informed him that all aircraft to his west were hostile. He went for the target in contact on close combat mode with R-75 missiles.

The radar had asked the formation to turn back because of the threat developing on them. Vyas heard the call and turned around. Jammers prevented Abhinandan from getting the call. In the melee, it is presumed that the Bison shot down an F-16D, while breaking off from the attack.

The enemy dropped 11 weapons—two each at Kishan Ghati, Bhimber Gali (Hamirpur), Kesbowl and Tackundi Bowl, and one each at the 251 Ammunition Point in Rajouri and Bharat Gala—but could not cause any damage. The debris indicated use of H4 bombs (range 120km) and range extension kits (60km) on Mk-83 bombs.

Why did the weapons not cause damage? I see two reasons. One, the enemy was forced to turn back by IAF interceptors before weapon release. Or, they were not allowed effective follow-through. Five AMRAAM missiles were fired by the F-16. Debris of AMRAAM AIM-120C5 were picked up and shown on national TV at 7:30pm on February 28.

Why were such beyond-visual-range missiles ineffective? One theory is that PAF wanted to draw our air defence forces to a planned kill box without crossing the LoC and use their superior AMRAAM to get aerial kills. Since this ploy did not succeed, they launched their missiles at longer ranges. We simply defeated their superior weapons with superior manoeuvring. Anyway, Pakistan’s retaliation was a giveaway that our Balakot strike was successful.

There were many tactical lessons for us. One, the PAF’s superior beyond-visual-range missiles give them an advantage of first-shot capability with better kinematic range. Our planned induction of the Meteor missile with Rafale fighter jets would change that. Two, weather and mountains do impose physical limitations on aerial surveillance. Good and real-time intelligence will always be the most critical requirement in any conflict.

Three, communication jamming was a vulnerability. The IAF has been crying hoarse for years for securing communications and progressing the case for operational data link. The case has got traction now. Four, dominance in the electromagnetic spectrum will play a key role in future conflict. Five, clear rules of engagement are important in less-than-war situations. These rules need to be reviewed quickly. Seven, combatants need to be trained to quickly switch from peacetime rules to wartime activities.

The shooting down of our own Mi-17V5 helicopter is unpardonable. It was a combination of many mistakes, including personnel being trigger-happy at the first exposure to a conflict. The conflicts of 1965, 1971 and 1999 have shown that the maximum attrition for any air force is in the first three days of conflict, when we experience the ‘fog of war’. The US air force, which leads in combat experience, realised this over years of iteration. The main objective of the Red Flag exercise in the US is to train personnel in handling the first three days of combat with reduced attrition.

With stand-off ranges increasing, involving air power for sub-conventional operations will open more windows of conflict and conflict resolution. Today’s rule is that military planes should not operate less than 10km from the border. At normal speeds, this distance can be covered in less than a minute. The issue gets compounded with induction of weapon systems which have assured stand-off ranges, like the Meteor missile (which has a range of more than 100km), SCALP (300km) or S-400 (380 km), with AWACS giving cross-border visibility of 450km. Thus, the fight could take place without crossing the border. We need to remember that it works both ways.

One may ask, why use aircraft when surface-to-surface missiles or cruise missiles are available? The answer is: they are more dangerous because of the warhead options or the threat of disproportionate retaliation. Perhaps long-range artillery or rockets and armed drones or unmanned aerial vehicles are more acceptable. The conflict in the Middle East has shown effective use of affordable low-tech drones causing unacceptable damage.

Our response reflected a strong political will, quick decision-making, good intelligence in selection of target, meticulous planning, good tactical acumen, maintenance of secrecy, excellent execution in adverse weather, robustness of the Integrated Air Command and Control System and excellent tactics and training.

Total war between countries is slowly becoming history. We need to be prepared and trained for border conflicts like Kargil, heightened tensions at Doklam or punitive surgical strikes, as in Pakistan and Myanmar.

The bigger message: If major terrorist strikes reoccur, we will hit again and hit harder.

Hit and run - The Week
 
The single important thing that Balakot has done is - it showed Pakistan that it cannot hide behind "We will nuke you" phrase any more.

The US State Dept shut them up long before that though.

Had W. CDR. Abhinandan not crossed the loc that day, Pakistan would have had a serious issue achieving their actual objective, as their people would have asked for something concrete which they certainly didn't have.

We would have followed it up with missile strikes.

As we now know, we had no bottomline at the time. Meaning we would have gone to war had things kept escalating.
 
Instead of denying the strikes took place, no different from the post-Uri surgical strikes, they decided to say the strikes missed their targets instead.

I think even they realised they screwed up by publicising the Balakot strikes. They would have continued to be in advantage by maintaining silence about the strikes and continued peddling the story that terror strikes on India do not have any consequences to Pakistanis. Instead they got pressured into striking back, and things would have gotten more out of control had Abhinandan not got caught, which would have completely played into India's hands. This time they got lucky.
Do you remember the videos of that night in which F-16s were taking off with full afterburner and firing flares? I had commented at that time that we have fools in PAF. Flares can have no effect with afterburner lit. They had to come out with the revelation as PAF got airborne in numbers and they could not hide it from theor population. If PAF had not got airborne in panic, Pakistan ISPR would have again said that there were no strikes.

We would have followed it up with missile strikes.

As we now know, we had no bottomline at the time. Meaning we would have gone to war had things kept escalating.
The possibility of Pakistan escalating was very much anticipated and a counter was planned which would have forced Pakistan into submission. But that being election time and Abhi as POW, the plans were held back. Qatl ki raat got postponed. We had anticipated strikes on our forward areas and IAF was supposed to defend them. We had old ROE in place and thought that PAF will adhere to them to avoid escalation. However it was also factored in that should they escalate, we too will escalate and for that reason whole of IN was mobilised alongwith IA.
 
Our air defence was on full alert; the AWACS was on station northeast of Adampur in the morning and so were the aircraft on combat air patrol. At 9:42am, the Integrated Air Command and Control Station warned of an increase in air activity over Pakistan.
I had posted that AWAC was not in station and I was laughed at and also the same was posted with ridicule on twitter by some. This statement by the man who controlled it all makes it very clear that what I had stated was absolutely correct.
Please go thru my post. I had stated that the AWAC was not in station to control the combat and moved in later. The AWAC which was off Adampur moved to a place over Kishtwar to control the combat as the place of combat was not in Punjab but J&K. The AWAC was deployed to safeguard approaches to delhi and not for J&K.
 
Do you remember the videos of that night in which F-16s were taking off with full afterburner and firing flares? I had commented at that time that we have fools in PAF. Flares can have no effect with afterburner lit. They had to come out with the revelation as PAF got airborne in numbers and they could not hide it from theor population. If PAF had not got airborne in panic, Pakistan ISPR would have again said that there were no strikes.

They could have passsed it off as a precautionary set of flights because the Indians were acting aggressively.

Any explosions heard could also have been passed away as one or two drop tanks exploding upon dropping them.

The Pakistanis are gullible enough to believe such stories after all.

The possibility of Pakistan escalating was very much anticipated and a counter was planned which would have forced Pakistan into submission. But that being election time and Abhi as POW, the plans were held back. Qatl ki raat got postponed. We had anticipated strikes on our forward areas and IAF was supposed to defend them. We had old ROE in place and thought that PAF will adhere to them to avoid escalation. However it was also factored in that should they escalate, we too will escalate and for that reason whole of IN was mobilised alongwith IA.

I don't think there will ever be any terrorist attacks when BJP is in power. So a second chance is unlikely.

The LoC RoEs should have changed on the night of the strikes, this was a collossal failure.
 
The radar had asked the formation to turn back because of the threat developing on them. Vyas heard the call and turned around.
Remember that I had very clearly stated this in my posts. The no-2 heard it and turned back without conveying it to his formation leader. No-2 being close to the leader should have conveyed the instructions to his leader and stuck to him instead of returning back. It was for this reason alone that Abhi got shot down. If the No-2 had stayed with his leader, Nauman ali would not have been able to fire at Abhi as he would have got sandwiched between Abhi and Vyas OR we would have had two F-16s down for one Mig-21.
 
Sameer Joshi was the 'source' of info on no AWACS in air. And it was 'scrambled'. Another iteration was AWACS was being changed over. Now a new iteratiom of over Adampur moving to Kishtwar.

Obviously it is funny, because precise point was in near vicinity of Patni Top and no, there was neither a 'scramble' nor was there a 'changeover' of aircraft which left gap.

AWACS detected 30 odd aircraft front by 0925 am.

And had taken over vectoring aircrafts to meet the emerging threats ....... as always, verbatim from the crew of AWACS who I met

As for the nonsense of Abhinandan not hearing, he went in for the kill. Simple.



Amusing to note that inspite of
 
Sameer Joshi was the 'source' of info on no AWACS in air. And it was 'scrambled'. Another iteration was AWACS was being changed over. Now a new iteratiom of over Adampur moving to Kishtwar.

Obviously it is funny, because precise point was in near vicinity of Patni Top and no, there was neither a 'scramble' nor was there a 'changeover' of aircraft which left gap.

AWACS detected 30 odd aircraft front by 0925 am.

And had taken over vectoring aircrafts to meet the emerging threats ....... as always, verbatim from the crew of AWACS who I met

As for the nonsense of Abhinandan not hearing, he went in for the kill. Simple.



Amusing to note that inspite of
 
Sameer Joshi was the 'source' of info on no AWACS in air. And it was 'scrambled'. Another iteration was AWACS was being changed over. Now a new iteratiom of over Adampur moving to Kishtwar.

Obviously it is funny, because precise point was in near vicinity of Patni Top and no, there was neither a 'scramble' nor was there a 'changeover' of aircraft which left gap.

AWACS detected 30 odd aircraft front by 0925 am.

And had taken over vectoring aircrafts to meet the emerging threats ....... as always, verbatim from the crew of AWACS who I met

As for the nonsense of Abhinandan not hearing, he went in for the kill. Simple.



Amusing to note that inspite of
Hi, What do you think of these missiles allegedly from Mig-21 that Pakistan keeps on parading everywhere?
 
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Instead of denying the strikes took place, no different from the post-Uri surgical strikes, they decided to say the strikes missed their targets instead.

I think even they realised they screwed up by publicising the Balakot strikes. They could have continued to be in advantage by maintaining silence about the strikes and continued peddling the story that terror strikes on India do not have any consequences to Pakistanis. Instead they got pressured into striking back, and things would have gotten more out of control had Abhinandan not got caught, which would have completely played into India's hands. This time they got lucky.
This is what I've been thinking from day of the airstrike. The only reason we stopped was because Porkis got lucky. They successfully used abhinandan to weaken our position because had he not been captured we would definitely done more airstrikes and this time on actual military targets(instead of ISI assets). The whole night before abhinandan was returned there was this weird things happening with human chains being made around Karachi and weird stuff. It was clear the way they returned abhinandan in two days that the Porkis actually fear us. Balakot basically showed the difference in
aukaad of the two countries. The Porkis just got saved from a beating otherwise they would have done a lot more answering to the awaam. Pakistan's sanity is in the hands of the Porky Military You destroy the Military you destroy the sanity and idea of Pakistan that's why it's a much easier enemy to fight than the Chinese.
 
Actually, not a fantasy. Own side UAVS move along LC and overfly PA positions quite frequently now. Somehow, PAF has moved into depth areas and are surprisingly (and sensibly?) not challenging them. Probably as a consequence of the ROEs being changed by GoI whereby the constraints of not firing across LC have been removed and IAF has been made weapons free.

The change on ground is that today escalatory matrix is being controlled by India.

This is because the day India get oppurtunity, India will shoot down PAF flying close. Atlantique style
 
This is because the day India get oppurtunity, India will shoot down PAF flying close. Atlantique style

That is why I say that Feb 26 -- Feb 27 are the Best things that happened to India for a long time

Because there is Absolutely NO other way we could have seen and learnt all these invaluable lessons

Now it is just a matter of time to show the enemy its place
 
Remember that I had very clearly stated this in my posts. The no-2 heard it and turned back without conveying it to his formation leader. No-2 being close to the leader should have conveyed the instructions to his leader and stuck to him instead of returning back. It was for this reason alone that Abhi got shot down. If the No-2 had stayed with his leader, Nauman ali would not have been able to fire at Abhi as he would have got sandwiched between Abhi and Vyas OR we would have had two F-16s down for one Mig-21.

Abhi got his kill only because he entered
POK

That is when his R 73 got a missile lock

The F 16 which fired on Vyas was deep into POK
 
Sameer Joshi was the 'source' of info on no AWACS in air. And it was 'scrambled'. Another iteration was AWACS was being changed over. Now a new iteratiom of over Adampur moving to Kishtwar.

Obviously it is funny, because precise point was in near vicinity of Patni Top and no, there was neither a 'scramble' nor was there a 'changeover' of aircraft which left gap.

AWACS detected 30 odd aircraft front by 0925 am.

And had taken over vectoring aircrafts to meet the emerging threats ....... as always, verbatim from the crew of AWACS who I met

As for the nonsense of Abhinandan not hearing, he went in for the kill. Simple.



Amusing to note that inspite of
Sir, for clarity, can you please elaborate how many fighter jets were on station? What I understand from minimal details heard, that 2 Su30 and 2 Mirage were there. Additionally 4 Mig21s joined during the engagement. Remaining close to 10 jets were on the way before engagement ended. Excluding support planes. Is there any correction in this statement? Thank you.
 
Sameer Joshi was the 'source' of info on no AWACS in air. And it was 'scrambled'. Another iteration was AWACS was being changed over. Now a new iteratiom of over Adampur moving to Kishtwar.

Obviously it is funny, because precise point was in near vicinity of Patni Top and no, there was neither a 'scramble' nor was there a 'changeover' of aircraft which left gap.

AWACS detected 30 odd aircraft front by 0925 am.

And had taken over vectoring aircrafts to meet the emerging threats ....... as always, verbatim from the crew of AWACS who I met

As for the nonsense of Abhinandan not hearing, he went in for the kill. Simple.



Amusing to note that inspite of
Your awacs was on the ground at the time , by IAF own admission.
Check again before writing lies.
 
Your awacs was on the ground at the time , by IAF own admission.
Check again before writing lies.

We know that.

One most important thing which your military has managed to achieve is delay and confuse India military as well as leadership in decision making.

India if ever lose to Pakistan will be only because of lack of decision making at micro and macro level and not because of lack of might. We have fuddu and ghanchakkers speaking in english found on tvs and in sena bhavan wasting tax payers money.
 
This is what I've been thinking from day of the airstrike. The only reason we stopped was because Porkis got lucky. They successfully used abhinandan to weaken our position because had he not been captured we would definitely done more airstrikes and this time on actual military targets(instead of ISI assets). The whole night before abhinandan was returned there was this weird things happening with human chains being made around Karachi and weird stuff. It was clear the way they returned abhinandan in two days that the Porkis actually fear us. Balakot basically showed the difference in
aukaad of the two countries. The Porkis just got saved from a beating otherwise they would have done a lot more answering to the awaam. Pakistan's sanity is in the hands of the Porky Military You destroy the Military you destroy the sanity and idea of Pakistan that's why it's a much easier enemy to fight than the Chinese.

Brahmos stikes were lined up after the airstrikes.