Air India Ahmedabad-London flight crash

Busting TikTok myth about pilot error....


I was also about to share this video & few more like this who are debunking Flaps/pilot error.
Hence in my 1st post itslef i
- showed how narrow the flexible wing looks from different angles.
- mentioned alarm sound & warning LEDs due to wrong operation of throttle, flaps, speed brake, etc not matching speed, altitude, orientation, etc & working of EEC.

But assuming pilot error also with flaps lever, the correction would be immediate. 🤷‍♂️

And bcoz S/w glitches are not new in civil & military aviation, the Boeing S/w guys have to tell how dangerous the inaccurate FMC programming could be, setting wrong limits based on which EEC might react wrongly.




So some foreign & domestic pilots suspect pilot error,
BUT,
ADMIT that when flaps, (basically anything - throttle, air-brake level, buttons, knobs) are incorrectly operated then it'll sound loud alarm & warning LEDs.

So, then the disoriented pilot/co-pilot will react immediately "Oh shit, damn, WTH did i do" & correct the action immediately.

1st of all the 2 levers of gear & flaps are not nearby.

2nd, When pilot instructs co-pilot to perform assisting task like change flaps, operate landing gear, overhead panel, etc, he/she has to verbally ANNOUNCE it like "Flaps 10" & the co-pilot has to execute task & ACKNOWLEDGE by repeating "Flaps 10".
Non-instructed actions also have to be announced
to be on same page.

3rd, the sound & LED alarms.

4th, The mistake has to happen obviously before the APOGEE of the trajectory, roughly around 20-30% of horizontal distance & around 50% of vertical distance.

So if the black box revealed that co-pilot did make a mistake then the global aviation community would suspect him as intoxicated at work, mentally stressed, fatigued, having health issues, etc.

The flaps change angle steadily, neither slow nor fast, like say 1-2 degree/second, IDK exactly.
So 5-10 seconds lost in doing mistake & immediately correcting it.
In this case IMO plane would have flown just over the medical hostel & gained altitude.

But ofcourse, being a non-aero average techie, i could be inaccurate/wrong.
 
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Many media channels found the 17yo boy named "Aryan" who recorded the 1st video, they went to his house & showed him, his terrace, his video clip on his cellphone.

But the point to note is that most media channels are not playing original, unedited, FHD (1920x1080p) video & sound, but its recording from playback on another screen, or edited.:mad:

Bcoz if the ORIGINAL HIGH-RES VIDEO was revealed then the media channels would not get the world to speculate on Flaps, RAT, engines, bird hit, etc & get the TRP.


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The file info clearly shows date stamp, file name, 1920x1080, 49.10 MB, 00:25 (video length).
When professional S/w will enhance the frames then it'll be more clear.
The flaps seem to be deployed in take-off position.
RAT seems deployed too.
The engine sound seems to be far lower than at takeoff & climb phase.
 
The Mayday call given by Capt was "No thrust no power going down". whatelse can be more clarifying then this. I told you it was a case of twin engine failure for whatever reasons. But I just came to know that an ANA B787 had both its engines switched off after landing due to software glitch in FADEC of the engines. They were lucky but it seems the same sh%t happened with this crew. There is no way an ac can down like this even if the flaps are retarcted. Recovery is very easy by reselecting flaps beyound the T/O flap settings. I myself had a very bad exp when I was doing my sim check with a very new F/O and when I called for gear up, he went for the flap lever. I immediately slammed his hand and forced his hand down so that he cant pull the lever up. In Boeing we have gates for flaps selections, you need to raise the flap lever to take to another gate. As Captains we have to be very very carefull while flying with new F/Os with very little flying exp on the type. We moniter each and every movement of them in the cockpit.
In this case, the Capt was an LTC and the F/O had over 1100 hrs of exp. I dont suspect that the F/O did any mistake. BTW this F/O was a very dear frnd to my son-in-law who flies for Air India.
I am sure its a case of Manufacturer error and thats the reason both the engines are being flown to USA.
 

Civil Minister gave his first briefing after the incident.
Updates :

1. The black box has been recovered and is currently being decoded by the AAIB.The Aircraft Accident Investigation Bureau (AAIB) commenced a formal investigation into the crash on the same day. A five-member GO Team, led by the Director General of AAIB, was dispatched immediately and later augmented with forensic and medical experts.

2. A High-Level Committee has been constituted under the Chairmanship of the Union Home Secretary to conduct an independent and comprehensive inquiry. The committee includes officials from:

  • Ministry of Civil Aviation
  • Ministry of Home Affairs
  • Government of Gujarat
  • DGCA, BCAS, Indian Air Force, Intelligence Bureau
  • State Disaster Response Authority
  • National and State-level forensic experts
3. The DGCA has directed Air India to undertake immediate technical inspections of all Boeing 787-8 and 787-9 aircraft fitted with Genx engines. Of the 33 Dreamliners currently in service across Indian carriers, 8 have already undergone inspection. The remaining aircraft are being checked on an urgent basis.

 
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The Mayday call given by Capt was "No thrust no power going down". whatelse can be more clarifying then this. I told you it was a case of twin engine failure for whatever reasons. But I just came to know that an ANA B787 had both its engines switched off after landing due to software glitch in FADEC of the engines. They were lucky but it seems the same sh%t happened with this crew.

That's what we're discussing how dual engine failure could have happened.

We're also considering S/w glitch, hence i mentioned a hypothetical example of EEC malfunction.

The ANA 787 incident happened in 2019 & if we deep-dive into the cause then it is complicated.
Boeing clarified that the engines can shutdown as thrust reverser were activated too quickly before ground condition achieved which activated the TCMA or Thrust Control Malfunction Accommodation system which guards against inadvertent asymmetrical high thrust situations. The TCMA would notice high thrust at idle or low speeds on ground w/o decceleration, so engine would be shutdown to reduce speed.
It is like FADEC logic suspects intentional suicidal kind of attempt by pilot & tries to prevent it w/o checking that the high thrust is for reverser, not forward thrust. Now that's obviously programming glitch.

But this is takeoff situation. So i can think of an ECC glitch, any other system glitch?

There is no way an ac can down like this even if the flaps are retarcted. Recovery is very easy by reselecting flaps beyound the T/O flap settings. I myself had a very bad exp when I was doing my sim check with a very new F/O and when I called for gear up, he went for the flap lever. I immediately slammed his hand and forced his hand down so that he cant pull the lever up. In Boeing we have gates for flaps selections, you need to raise the flap lever to take to another gate. As Captains we have to be very very carefull while flying with new F/Os with very little flying exp on the type. We moniter each and every movement of them in the cockpit.
In this case, the Capt was an LTC and the F/O had over 1100 hrs of exp. I dont suspect that the F/O did any mistake. BTW this F/O was a very dear frnd to my son-in-law who flies for Air India.
I am sure its a case of Manufacturer error and thats the reason both the engines are being flown to USA.

You witnessed 1 of the most unbelievable costly mistakes F/O can do, after spending Rs 50 lakh+ on pilot training after type-rating.
Perhaps you should not reveal this kind mistakes or someone might try tracing you & that F/O. 🚨👮‍♂️ 😆

And that's what i also said that -
- gear & faps levers are well separated.
- Gear lever is pull up-down type while flap lever is lift & notch type.
- if pilot/co-pilot made mistake then it would/should alarm with caution LEDs & they would immediately correct it.

I can understand that cessna type turbo-prop only has the flap switch in front, nothing for gear.
But that doesn't justify mistake after type-rating & crossing 1000+ hours on a jet.
Imagine if IAF pilots do this kind of mistake on 1 set jet fighters.
 
So look like it was dual engine failure & subsequent total power failure....The guy who floated pilot error theory has changed his mind after hearing RAT sound on one of video. Ram Air Turbine (RAT) is deployed only in the event of significant power loss..... We can actually see & hear it in the video as it makes very distinguish noise easily identifiable.

 
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So look like it was dual engine failure & subsequent total power failure....The guy who floated pilot error theory has changed his mind after hearing RAT sound on one of video. Ram Air Turbine (RAT) is deployed only in the event of significant power loss..... We can actually see & hear it in the video as it makes very distinguish noise easily identifiable.

Oh God this makes it even more complex now. How the heck did both engines fail at the same time????
 
Please go thru this thread. On the very day of the crash and within couple of hours I had posted about being deployed and also posted a pic of it. The whole world was trying to make it look like pilot error. Now the truth is out even this Pilot has corrected himself.
I can now confirm 100% that it was a dual engine failure as the RAT is deployed. This happens in boeing design only when the No-1TR of engine no-1 busbar get deenergised. Even if one engine driven Generator or APU gen is available, thru the bus transfer switch, the no-1 T/R remains energised. If it looses power, that means only source of elctricity is now battery power and the RAT deploys automatically. In that video the rat can been clearly seen deployed. Now what caused this catastophic dual engine failure is what we need to know.

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Cant say as this ac had flown from Delhi to AMD onwards to London. It was not the first flight of the day for this ac.
this is the pic of RAT.
 
So look like it was dual engine failure & subsequent total power failure....The guy who floated pilot error theory has changed his mind after hearing RAT sound on one of video. Ram Air Turbine (RAT) is deployed only in the event of significant power loss..... We can actually see & hear it in the video as it makes very distinguish noise easily identifiable.


I guess like me many people got angry that why media is NOT circulating the original high-res video.
And finally it is reaching the pilots & professional analysts.

If i was an independent journalist, i would have directly tagged all those media channels & asked why are they still playing "video of video". :mad:

So guys please don't waste your time on any old "video of video" with endless speculations, just for TRP.


But the pilot Steve says now that the loud bang heard by lone survivor was RAT deploying.
There is some discrepancy in this.
RAT deploys quickly in a second but does it cause a bang noise?

The blackbox decode could take few days after AAIB, NTSB, DGCA guys assemble & the prelim report could take up to 1 month.

Meanwhile for discussion, we can try to arrange things in a timeline -
- the bang, what exactly - short circuit, eternal object hit, sabotage, etc.
- loss of primary electricals &/or hydraullics
- flickering of passenger cabin lights
- loss of thrust
- RAT deployment
- loss of altitude
 
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Certain things that are mentioned in this report are truly disturbing. I had a chat with a close friend and he stated that most people are willing to anything for so called reach and "clout". Seems to be true. Every john and jane on the internet now has their own theories nowadays. Certain accounts deserve to be de-platformed. I am usually not pro cancel culture but some things have been changing my mind.

 
The emergency landing options were extremely limited due very low speed, altitude, time.
Roads & open areas not properly visible due to trees. A drone view from apogee point flying towards the crash area can reveal things better.

The plane fell in a less dense spot over roof of the mess then in compound of the hostel, all areas around have highly dense residence.

From crash vids & pics it appears - If pilot could see the ground, may be he pulled up nose to avoid head-on collision with mess, causing the tail to hit mess & break, remaining fuselage exploded, skid on rooftop, may be bounced little, rolled right & left wing hit the building, fuselage brushed the buildings & hit compound ground.

If the failure happened sooner or slightly later then there would be no clean area with much higher ground casualties.
If failure happened say after a minute then pilots would be in similar situation as captain Sully, with Sabarmati river nearby.

Pilots do train for crashes due to numerous reasons, in different terrain.
An extremely proactive pilot might even study Google Maps around airport before next flight, IDK. That's exceptional navigation skill. But failure can happen at any unfavorable moment.

If T/o to crash is 32 seconds then engines must have failed around 8-10 seconds, 1/4th to 1/3rd of distance, 22-24 seconds remaining.
1 or both pilot(s) would try to look quickly at MFDs - error messages, RPM, electrical, hydraullics, etc, perhaps try to restart engines.
1 pilot may to scout the area; from security CCTV footage the jet does roll right little then left then centers, but a jet cannot maneuver much at such low altitude & short time of 8-16 seconds with emergency power from batteries + RAT also.
Excess pulling could have caused stall.


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APOGEE or highest altitude was 625 ft. from MSL (Mean Sea Level) & 400 ft. AGL (Above Ground Level), 16 seconds remaining.
400 ft = 40 floors building roughly.
If we check Google Earth,positioning at approximate apogee point, at 400 ft., & look towards crash site, then the pilots would have seen something like this (16 seconds remaining) :

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It was take-off phase, then loss of thust, so AoA (Angle of Attack) was high, hence downwards visibility of ground is very limited, but 787 windshield has good size & FoV (Field of View).
We can watch many landing videos on Youtube.
Now if we imagine trees, they will obscure the open land also, it is trigonometry.
If the pilot scouts an open land at apogee & steer with emergency power, then there are better chances.

The following are pics of -
- regular eye view in cockpit
- zoomed view out of clean flat terrain

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Look at the height of tail of plane on ground through the left HUD. Trees can be even more tall than that.
I put the RED lines & we can see how much huge land trees can obsure.

The slender wings of airliners are designed for subsonic cruise, not perfect glider.

If we combine the above pic & Googe Earth view, we get this:

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So unless someone shares a drone view from apogee point at 400 ft., i think from cockpit PoV, the city dwelling around airport didn't give much chance to pilots.
The airport is in NE quadrant of city.
If planes take off towards NE direction then also dwellings are there.
 

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Subramanian Swamy said AI171 crash should be investigated as conspiracy.

In interview to media he calls Narendra Modi as "chuha"(mouse) bcoz he doesn't open his mouth in front of USA, EU to take action against terror supporting nations like Pakistan & its allies.

He liked J.R.D. Tata but doesn't have confidnce over present day TATA group for super sophisticated tech like aircrafts. He said giving Air India to TATA group was mistake. BTW, his wife Roxna is Parsi/Zoroastrian, like Tata family.


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Subramanian Swamy said AI171 crash should be investigated as conspiracy.

In interview to media he calls Narendra Modi as "chuha"(mouse) bcoz he doesn't open his mouth in front of USA, EU to take action against terror supporting nations like Pakistan & its allies.

He liked J.R.D. Tata but doesn't have confidnce over present day TATA group for super sophisticated tech like aircrafts. He said giving Air India to TATA group was mistake. BTW, his wife Roxna is Parsi/Zoroastrian, like Tata family.


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Saw this video. He says a lot of things and make a lot of hulabaloo about nothing. My advice to Mr. Swamy and his ilk - How about the analysis of the black box? Both have been found and are under analysis. NTSB and UK are actively helping DCGA. All videos now discussing theories are actively peddling them at the cost of factual data that is about to emerge soon. These videos are now gimmicks for views.
 
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Over time the truth will come out. Dual engine failure and a harsh reminder to aviators that takeoff is when you're most vulnerable.

RIP to the victims.
 
Possibility of maintenance issues are there, but it spans numerous things.

But if considering FUEL CONTAMINATION then
Our expectation is that when initial contamination builds up,
at an international busy airport where continous refuelling take place,
it should cause engine sputter/stuter/shudder,
that too in multiple jets,
on multiple days & time,

forcing for maintenance,
not a sudden crash only for 1 jet,

that too late at 1:38 pm local time,
It is analogous to us sneezing, coughing & not straight away dropping dead on floor unless we inhaled nerve gas, cyanide, etc.

Common enthusiasts like us consider contamination as water, paste like dirt, some solid particles but not to the limit of 100% blocking valves, filters, etc, so rapidly in short time, causing complete loss of thrust & crash a vehicle.

In a default scenario, there are S.O.P.s & ISO standards to follow, multiple quality checks, quick checks & elaborated checks.
+ we would expect many filters & quality checks at every step used while transfering fuel from beginning till end -
- refinery to transport tanker
- transport tanker to airport storage
- airport storage to fuelling tanker
- fuelling tanker to aircraft

Captain Steve in his videos & statements said the fuelling trucks have contamination detection mechanism.

BUT, i realized that depending upon contaminant, catastrophic faults can be fast in 1st flight or span multiple flights.
So if those fuel giants are so careless then it would be a scam of unprecedented scale.
Citizens might stop taking fuel from them, their shares in stock market will collapse, the company or subsidiary might go bankrupt.

Each GenX-1B engine has -
- Fule Metering Unit
- LP & HP pumps
- LP & HP filters

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So contamination should cause pressure & flow irregularities recorded by FMU (Fuel Metering Unit), forcing for maintenance.

IDK the Black Box contains data of how many flights.
The data can be recorded in redundant bit level for max data.
If it has last few flights data then irregulaties will be recorded there.

While discussing on other forum, I came across 2 examples of contamination on different jet models & different bludner mistakes of adding 38x fuel-additive biocide & bad construction practices of fuel storage area. it is worth to have a lookat them:




Cathay Pacific Flight 780, 13 April 2010,
Airbus A-330,
Surabaya, Indonesia, to Hong Kong International Airport
(Cathay Pacific Flight 780 - Wikipedia)


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPeZr9uSfTg

RAT was manually, proactively deployed.
In flight they had chance to use APU also.
Left engine N1 ran at 74% & right engine N1 at 17%.

The root cause was bad construction practice during rain leading to salt water getting into fuel pipe, reacting with filter & releasing SAP particles.

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===============================================================



Titan Airways, Airbus A321,
24 Feb 2020, Cyprus - London, no errors !!!!!!.
25 Feb 2020, London - Gatwick, On ground for left engine -
HP Fuel valve warning,
engine took 2 attempts to start.
25 Feb 2020, Gatwick - Balice (Poland), no errors !!!!!!
26 Febl 2020, Balice (Poland) - Gatwick, On ground for left engine -
2 times HP Fuel valve warning,
engine stall warning once,
left engine took 3 attempts to start,
momentary errors in flight
& thumping sound after landing.
26 Feb 2020, Gatwick - London, On ground for left engine -
ignitor fail alert,
engine fail alert 2 times,
engine took 4 attempts to start,
incident on take-off,
Fortunately the engines didn't fail completely & the jet could turn around & land,
thumping sound after landing.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4Qclymu2EA

This one happened due to multiple mistakes, that too on ground before 1st & 2nd flight & ultimately in 5th flight during takeoff -
- Language barrier in Cyprus, not understanding what is PPM (Parts Per Million).
- Wrong calculation & 38x quantity of Kathon biocide over-use & concentration in HMU, not due to algae.
- As per re-enacted animation it seems that biocide was added improperly from top access port, not mixed well with proper tools, leaving sludge on bottom & tank outlet, went into HMU & choked it. Hence right engine started but left engine took 4 attempts to start on ground.
- Before next flight the ground engineer referred to troubleshooting by fault code rather than engine model, hence of wrong engine.
- & no boroscope inspection was done.

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///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


> These incidents happened either mid-flight, means issues took time to manifest.
Or in 2nd example, many engine start faults happened on ground bcoz it is a unique series of blunder mistakes, but then ultimately in 5th flight during T/o.

>
In these 2 cases both the engines did not cease but ran at low RPMs due choking of piston of FMU (Fuel Metering Unit) & valve of HMU (Hydro Mechanical Unit).
While in case of AI-171 the pilot's Mayday call reported something like "no thrust, no power, losing lift, going down", speculating 0% RPM.

So, for AI-171 we've to look at -
- maintenance records,
- maintenance areas
- historical warning messages also
in Black Box apart from latest.
 
you have *censored*ed up this thread with absolute zilch. Pls tell me what option a Capt has when both engines fail? I am ex fighter pilot from Indian navy who flew Sea Harriers and ejected twice from fighters and yet alive and still a pilot, check with Maolanker if you do not trust me. After leaving Indian Navy, I have flown B737-300to800 and also A-320. I have over 8k hrs as flying exp. Can u teach me?.
 

Air India to reduce international services on widebody aircraft by 15%Move to ensure stability of operations, better efficiency and minimise inconvenience to passengersAir India remains in mourning on the tragic loss of 241 passengers and crew members aboard flight AI171. Our hearts are with the families, loved ones, and communities affected by the accident.Precious lives of passengers, crew on board and those on the ground at the crash site, have been lost. At Air India, we consider the family members of the deceased as part of our larger family and stand in complete solidarity with all of them, in these difficult times.In coordination with the Ministry of Civil Aviation and the Government of Gujarat, Air India is putting all possible efforts to support the family members of the deceased and the injured. Air India and Tata Group volunteers are deputed in Ahmedabad for coordination with family members for any assistance at the hospitals and for them to travel back to their respective homes with the mortal remains of the deceased. We pray for the departed souls and convey our deepest condolences to the families.Enhanced MeasuresThe investigating authorities are continuing their efforts to find out the reasons for the accident. The DGCA had mandated ‘Enhanced Safety Inspection’ across Air India’s Boeing 787-8/9 aircraft fleet. Out of total 33 aircraft, inspections have now been completed on 26 and these have been cleared for service, while inspection of the remainder will be complete in the coming days. The fact that 26 aircraft have been cleared gives reassurance in the safety measures and procedures that we follow.As a matter of added precaution, Air India will also undertake enhanced safety checks on its Boeing 777 fleet and, going forward, we will continue to cooperate with the authorities, viz AAIB, DGCA, MoCA to ensure the safety of our passengers, our crew and our aircraft, which remains our highest priority.Temporary Route CurtailmentDue to the geopolitical tensions in the Middle East, night curfew in the airspaces of many countries in Europe and East Asia, the ongoing enhanced safety inspections, and also the necessary cautious approach being taken by the engineering staff and Air India pilots, there have been certain disruptions in our international operations over the last 6 days leading to a total of 83 cancellations.Given the compounding circumstances that Air India is facing, to ensure stability of our operations, better efficiency and to minimise inconvenience to passengers, Air India has decided to reduce its international services on widebody aircraft by 15% for the next few weeks. The cuts will be implemented between now and 20 June and will continue thereafter until at least mid-July. This effectively adds to our reserve aircraft availability to take care of any unplanned disruptions.Air India apologises to the passengers affected due to these curtailments, and will inform them in advance and make its best efforts to accommodate them on alternate flights. Passengers will also be offered a choice to reschedule their travel without any cost or to be given full refund, as per their choice. The revised schedule of our international services effective from 20 June, 2025 will be shared shortly.With Your Support, We Will ReboundThe curtailments are a painful measure to take, but are necessary following a devasting event which we are still working through and an unusual combination of external events. It is done to restore operational stability, and to minimise last-minute inconvenience to passengers. With the continued support of our passengers, the regulatory authorities, Ministry of Civil Aviation and India at large, we will come out stronger through this tragic incident and reestablish the confidence of our passengers and all stakeholders in our services, at the earliest.