Brahmos Supersonic Cruise Missile : News, Updates and Discussions
- Thread starter Manmohan_MMY
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LOL! When you run out of any real data or any real facts you start mud slinging. Attack the idea NOT the speaker. The words like "You" should not be the object of your argument, it should be "brahmos" and "asmp". Its okay to say that you don't have any source to back up your claim.
Existing Brahmos is a different class cruise missile compares french air to surface missile ( i dont know is it actually a CM, lacks contour /magnetic contour mapping flight. No official or even reliable unofficial confirmation regarding it), so you cannot expect it to be as light as an air launched missile. Look at a dedicated air to surface missile like KH 59,it is as light as french missile ( of course kh is a subsonic )
The existing Brahmos mounted in MKI is nothing but surface to surface Brahmose with slight modification, means basically 600+ ranged surface to surface p700 hanged under belly of an mki.
Now why envisioned NG is not significantly lighter compares to Western or Russian one? Answer is its an indian missile, and before seeking lightness in NG variant, just do some reaserch on indian missiles and its range, mass etc with respect to western counterparts, A5 like missile is a true Inter continental missile in west, but here its a 5k ranged missile. Reason is we are light years behind west in missile development.
Lets compare apple to apple. Subsonic turbofan powered weapons are totally different beasts.
Lets limit to RAM Jet powered supersonic ALCMs.
Those with Russian lineage include
1. Brahmos Air Launched variant (you can even include Brahmos NG ALCM under works) which is a development of P-800 Oniks. They weight around 2500 to 1500 KG.
2. YJ-12 : Range is very similar (even a little less) than ASMP at 400 KM. Payload about 100 KG higher. Weighs 2500 KG. This was a development from Russian Kh-31. It is actually an enlarged version of Kh-31.
I may, if you first tell why is this relevant to this discussion.
When you make dumb assertions, you still gotta back it up.
Why don't you start providing sources for all the data? 'Cause I have them, I wanna see if you can do the due diligence needed first. Already given you quite a few days.
So you think missiles with seekers are nothing special, so why don't you look up the differences between the JASSM-ER and a missile that can only target slow moving targets? Given, the missile is from the same maker, I'm sure your expertise can be put too good use explaining the differences.
You have NEVER provided ONE single source of any of the claims you made. Claims like "Fuel in ASMP is more expensive".
I am more than happy to provide reference to all my claims and I usually do it as well. You on the other hand have NEVER used facts or figures but just assertions.
So before I go on a wild goose chase to compare two totally unrelated missiles, do tell me your source for wild claims like "Fueld in ASMP is more expensive than in Brahmos."
You were the one who made the claim about the ASMP and Brahmos being the same. So please provide data, I don't really care about sources for this, I'd rather see the data you have itself.
And no, the JASSM-ER and LRASM differences are extremely relevant to this discusison. About how two missiles with the same airframe and motor have so much of a difference simply because one of them can hit slow moving targets.
And no, anybody with actual knowledge of these things will nto go around making claims you were. So I'd really like to see what sort of data you have that goes contrary to common sense.
I already have provided the data. Range of ASMP/ASMP-A and range of Brahmos Air Launched version (300-500 KM : Air-Sol Moyenne Portée (ASMP/ ASMP-A) | Missile Threat, BrahMos | Missile Threat) . Weight of both and their variants Air launched and NG (860KG vs 2500KG and 1500KG Air-Sol Moyenne Portée (ASMP/ ASMP-A) | Missile Threat , BrahMos | Missile Threat ). Their propulsion mechanism (RAMJet : Air-Sol Moyenne Portée (ASMP/ ASMP-A) | Missile Threat).
Now I need the data AND source for the cost of ASMP/ASMP-A fuel that you claimed.
We will talk about all these new strawmen that you are bringing but first lets see the claims that you made already and their data source.
Where does it say 300Kg for ASMP? I'd really like to specifically see a source for the ASMP where it says the payload is 300Kg. Since you claim both have the same warhead weight, you're going to have to back that up first.
First compare the two, since we still have to clear out basic common sense issues, like the effect of the seeker on a missile.
File:US nuclear weapons yield-to-weight comparison-fr.svg — Wikimedia Commons
The theorical maximum ratio power/energy is 6MT of TNT by ton of nuke weapon.
as the nuke of ASMP is known to be a 300kt weapon, the load has a theorical weight of at least 50 kilos. the maximum ratio is never reached, and there are some goodies for safety... but I think we are far from 300 kilos. Specially when you see how narrow the nose of the missile is.
File:US nuclear weapons yield-to-weight comparison-fr.svg — Wikimedia Commons
commons.wikimedia.org
The theorical maximum ratio power/energy is 6MT of TNT by ton of nuke weapon.
as the nuke of ASMP is known to be a 300kt weapon, the load has a theorical weight of at least 50 kilos. the maximum ratio is never reached, and there are some goodies for safety... but I think we are far from 300 kilos. Specially when you see how narrow the nose of the missile is.
He's using wrong data to come to his made up conclusions. There's nothing more to it.
He doesn't know the effect of the seeker on range, never mind the fact that he's comparing a ground launched system with an air-launched system. The weight of the warhead is not even the main problem, even though its twice that of the ASMP.
Even the Brahmos-M is a ground-launched system, with only the booster being modified for the air-launched version.
I said between 200-300 KG, which is the truth. Weight of TN-80 bomb alone is 200 KG : France's Nuclear Weapons - Development of the French Arsenal
Weight of TN-80 bomb alone is 200 KG. Anything like hardening and bulkheads will endup adding more weight. It will be between 200-300 KG.
Now that we have source of my claim, I will love to see where you got this "fact" that fuel of ASMP is "expensive"?
Sorry, I am using correct data, you know nothing. You have no source.
As I said before, repeat after me: BRAHMOS AIR LAUNCHED VERSION. You have even include Brahmos - NG as well which is double the weight of ASMP.
HUH?
This is the latest statement from Brahmos Aerospace :
BrahMos short-range ramjet supersonic cruise missile, to now come in smaller version
The BrahMos Missile, designed, developed and produced jointly by India and Russia has generated a lot of interest globally and is expected to undergo a change in size.
www.financialexpress.com
This is under development Brahmos Mini or NG and it is to be integrated with fighters. No dear, it is NO WHERE near the weight of ASMP.
That seldom happens in practice. One of the light warhead W-80 has a weight of 130 KG for a yield of 150 KN. TN-80 used on ASMP has a weight of 200 KG with a yield of 300 KT. Throw weight of ASMP will be 200-300.
*yawn* this is getting boring. It's better to just spoon feed since you have no interest in actually learning.
ASMP's payload is less than 150Kg, it was improved to "less than" 200Kg for a bigger warhead on the ASMP-A, still less than 200Kg. TN-80 is "about" 200Kg, not 200Kg.
The Brahmos that we use has MTCR restrictions, hence it seals a fuel tank to restrict range and restricts its payload to 200Kg, the non-MTCR version has no restrictions in either. So it's 300Kg payload on that.
Plus you forget that the Brahmos has a seeker. The LRASM is basically the JASSM-ER with a seeker. The JASSM-ER's range is 930Km, which was reduced to less than 600Km after the introduction of the seeker on LRASM. The addition of a seeker has reduced the range of the same missile with the same engine by 40%. This is how much of a difference a seeker creates. So you are quite literally comparing a less than 200Kg payload with a more than 200Kg payload + seeker.
Now, if you actually want to learn, look up the differences between the air-launched LRASM and ship-launched LRASM. You will learn not to compare a missile designed for ground launch with a dedicated air-launched missile after that.
Blah Blah Blah, now out with the source of "Expensive RAM-Jet fuel". If you have source, present it. If not say that you are always lying like you do.
Source?
TN-80 itself weighs 200 KG, FYI.
Do you have a source for weight of the the said seeker?
Unrelated.
Well, I don't want to learn, I want to see sources and evidence of your assertion.
Source of "Expensive RAM-jet fuel".
Source of "150 KG" payload of ASMP.
Source of Brahmos seeker weight.
If you don't have the source then you are just blabbering bullshit.