Brahmos Supersonic Cruise Missile : News, Updates and Discussions
- Thread starter Manmohan_MMY
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Actually GOOD! That you mentioned "bigger warheads". Just to be sure:
ASMP and Brahmos have very similar MASS of warheads (200-300 KG), as I mentioned before.
Now lets talk about volume. For the same mass a more dense object will have smaller volume. So what is the density of a conventional warhead and a lightweight nuclear war head? Fortunately we can estimate that :
A typical missile warhead contains mostly a polymer bonded explosive (PBX) to reduce sensitivity to shock. While there are many compositions of such PBX, lets use one of the common ones like PBX 9502 and PBX 9501.
Compacting Plastic-Bonded Explosive Molding Powders to Dense Solids (Technical Report) | OSTI.GOV
The U.S. Department of Energy's Office of Scientific and Technical Information
osti.gov
As you can see, depending upon molding process, a PBX charge will have density of 1.828 g / cm3 to 1.837 g / cm3.
Now lets see density of a nuclear warhead. Remember a lot of space in thermo nuclear warhead is NOT the radioactive fission fuel (which is super dense) but things link fog-bank or charges itself or lithium deuteride.
A W80 warhead has a diameter of 30 cm and height of 80 cm giving it a volume of 61380 cc. Its weight is about 130 Kg giving it a density of 2.11 g / cc. NOT massively higher than a PBX charge!
Meaning a missile carrying 130 KG of PBX like 9501 will need space about 71,000 cc and a missile carrying a nuclear warhead will need a space of 61,000 cc with same weight.
Thats JUST 16% more space!
Sorry dude, I don't think a conventional warhead of SAME mass is much BIGGER than a nuclear warhead.
The issue is primarily less advanced soviet ramjet design which is copied by India and China for their respective missiles.
Actually GOOD! That you mentioned "bigger warheads". Just to be sure:
ASMP and Brahmos have very similar MASS of warheads (200-300 KG), as I mentioned before.
Now lets talk about volume. For the same mass a more dense object will have smaller volume. So what is the density of a conventional warhead and a lightweight nuclear war head? Fortunately we can estimate that :
A typical missile warhead contains mostly a polymer bonded explosive (PBX) to reduce sensitivity to shock. While there are many compositions of such PBX, lets use one of the common ones like PBX 9502 and PBX 9501.
Compacting Plastic-Bonded Explosive Molding Powders to Dense Solids (Technical Report) | OSTI.GOV
The U.S. Department of Energy's Office of Scientific and Technical Information
View attachment 20578
As you can see, depending upon molding process, a PBX charge will have density of 1.828 g / cm3 to 1.837 g / cm3.
Now lets see density of a nuclear warhead. Remember a lot of space in thermo nuclear warhead is NOT the radioactive fission fuel (which is super dense) but things link fog-bank or charges itself or lithium deuteride.
A W80 warhead has a diameter of 30 cm and height of 80 cm giving it a volume of 61380 cc. Its weight is about 130 Kg giving it a density of 2.11 g / cc. NOT massively higher than a PBX charge!
Meaning a missile carrying 130 KG of PBX like 9501 will need space about 71,000 cc and a missile carrying a nuclear warhead will need a space of 61,000 cc with same weight.
Thats JUST 16% more space!
Sorry dude, I don't think a conventional warhead of SAME mass is much BIGGER than a nuclear warhead.
The issue is primarily less advanced soviet ramjet design which is copied by India and China for their respective missiles.
That's 'cause you are assuming what the ASMP carries is the same size as the W80. You're obviously going to come to the wrong conclusion.
Never mind the fact that the W80 is carried in a missile that has a greater diameter than the Brahmos.
You are quite literally comparing a missile with a diameter of 0.38m with missiles with diameters of 0.6m and 0.62m. And you are quite literally saying the ASMP has a massive warhead chamber that's nearly twice the length of the Brahmos's warhead chamber to compensate, when it's obvious the shorter and smaller ASMP also has a much smaller warhead volume, hence carries a significantly smaller and more compatible warhead design compared to the W80.
You can actually argue that since the ASMP is a single purpose missile meant to be used in small numbers, it actually carries a much superior and more expensive blend of fuel that provides it much greater efficiency than the Brahmos's fuel, which is meant for general purpose use in large numbers and in different profiles. Other than that the missile classes are entirely different to make any meaningful comparison.
Simply put, when it comes to performance, the Brahmos will be able to do everything the ASMP can, but the ASMP cannot do everything the Brahmos can. It's like comparing a light tank with an MBT.
We did get Abhinandan back by positioning bhramos I think?Even if you have it you wont use it so its the same thing.
So Brahmos is Nirbhaya now?
We have deployed a few Nirbhay Missiles in Ladakh , using old Russian engines
Their purpose is to destroy the SAMS and Radars
I believe that news about its failure is deliberately created Fake news
India deploys long-range missile Nirbhay to counter Chinese threat at LAC
India has deployed its long-range missile Nirbhay to deter Chinese aggression along the Line of Actual Control in eastern Ladakh.
Dear, I am comparing DENSITY. My entire agrument is this simple. A thermonuclear warhead NEED NOT BE NECESSARILY (emphasis on the word NECESSARILY) much bulkier than a conventional warhead of same weight (notice the word bulkier, it does not mean heavy).
When you say that Conventional warhead will necessarily be much bigger, I am challenging that. For same payload mass, it is NOT necessary that conventional warhead will NEED to be much bigger.
When it comes to diameter, that in case of Brahmos is bigger due to its soviet origin and NOT due to its warhead. Brahmos is bulkier and heavier than ASMP because MBDA knew something more than Soviets about RAM jet design.
Not necessarily. W80 is ALSO carried byTomahawk with a diameter of 52 cm (less than 60 cm diameter of Brahmos).
The warhead W80 itself has a diameter of 0.30m. All I am saying is this much : Its not the warhead that is making Brahmos bulkier and hence ( as per you) heavier. It is soviet origin of its RAM jet.
To be God damn honest, I don't know exactly what fuel ASMP carries or IF it is expensive. I am all ears if you have a source or anything that points to it. Even the cost of a single missile is not in public domain, only its development cost is.
Lastly, we are comparing with a weapon built in 1980s.
Basic volume of cylinder equation:
ASMP = 0.61m3
Brahmos = 2.43m3
2.43/0.61 = 3.98
3.98 x weight of ASMP = Brahmos weight for similar volume
3.98 x 860 = 3422 Kg
So, based on ASMP's volume, Brahmos should weigh 3.4T. But it doesn't.
Add to the fact that the Brahmos has a much larger booster since it has to carry the missile to altitude. The booster alone weighs more than a ton.
Apart from that the Brahmos carries a conventional warhead and the ability to hit moving targets. Totally different design, different warhead, seeker etc.
Fuel quality is important. ASMP is practically guaranteed to carry a superior grade of fuel.
Yeah, the Brahmos design is older, but that's not enough of a difference. It's an entirely different class of missile. If ASMP was ground-launched, it would also weigh a whole lot more.
The Brahmos is meant to carry a larger, heavier warhead from the ground, the ASMP carries a smaller, lighter warhead and is air-launched. This statement alone ends the discussion. So cheers.
LOL!
What you are suggesting is this : HAD ASMP been the SAME volume as Brahmos, its weight would have been a half a tonne to 1 tonne (ie Air launched version of Brahmos is about half a tonne lighter than Land launched Brahmos) more than Brahmos.
Trouble is, IF there were a missile with ASMP's technology and more volume (ie bigger), it would have most likely having much much larger range or payload capacity.
You need to hold weight and range constant FIRST before you compare those missiles!
Your equation is this
(Volume of Brahmos / Volume of ASMP) * Weight of ASMP
which is scaling ASMP to the size of Brahmos. If you make ASMP bigger, its range and payload will change markedly over and above Brahmos's.
You are just hung up on the ASMP having the same volume and payload as Brahmos.
This discussion is basically logic fail. The Brahmos has a gigantic booster, bigger and higher payload, seeker, higher range etc.
And no, if you make the ASMP bigger and land-launched, it will also need a very large booster that will increase weight like crazy.
Here's an example:
This is basically like the Brahmos. The SFDR has two boosters, one takes it to altitude and the other internally located booster propels it to high speed before the ramjet switches on. The weight of the SFDR in this configuration's more than twice the weight of the actual missile.
Remove the booster and you get ASMP. The weight quite literally drops by half in the case of the SFDR. Because it's pretty obvious a fighter jet version will not have the giant booster.
The Brahmos's overall range-payload performance is superior to the ASMP, and it has a gigantic booster that propels the missile from state of rest to nearly mach 3.
The ASMP carries a smaller payload that weighs 200Kg or less to 550Km when launched from the air, whereas the Brahmos can carry a 300Kg large warhead to 600-800Km from a state of rest. Not the same class. No comparison. Brahmos is further being upgraded for ranges between 1000-1500km.
Complete logic fail.
I am hung up on ASMP having very similar RANGE and payload as Brahmos AIR LAUNCHED missile.
I repeat Brahmos AIR LAUNCHED missile. That does not have that huge of booster. That --i surmise-- is the reason it is a good 500 KG lighter than its land based cousin.
Once more, the direct comparision is with Brahmos AIR LAUNCHED missile.
Repeat after me, Brahmos AIR LAUNCHED.
Once more, Brahmos AIR LAUNCHED.
ASMP has a payload capacity of 200KG to 300KG and a range of 300-500KM. Brahmos AIR LAUNCHED version has a range of 300-400KM and a payload of 300KG. Yes comparison. Oh did I mention that ASMP was once studied for its 1000-2000 KM range cousin too but dropped because of soviet breaking? And did I mention that there is already a project underway to upgrade ASMP to hypersonic missile with 1000-1500 KM range?
When you start with flawed premise like you did (with volume and variant of Brahmos), you will end up at wrong conclusion. Its not logic fail it is simply your inability to comprehend the issue.
Man you hammered the Brahmos ALCM so hard it's probably imprinted on his mind body & soul by now . The next time he reads of Brahmos being conceived of as a GLCM or in an ship bourne AShM capacity his first instinct would likely be to deny it .
Effing hell. This is getting dumber and dumber, and I don't think there's any limit to how dumb it has already gotten. The air-launched Brahmos is simply the same land-based missile with a smaller booster. It's not a dedicated air-launched missile that was designed from the ground up like the ASMP was.
It's the same reason why SAMs are so much bigger than AAMs. The design philosophy itself is completely different.
If you take the Akash and put it on an MKI, all you can do is make the booster smaller, but the missile will remain of the same size and dimensions. Then someone like you will start comparing it to the Meteor instead.
Get this right, the design philosophy is entirely different. Neither the Brahmos nor ASMP are comparable to each other, it doesn't matter how old or new the tech is. It's no different from comparing a pistol to a rifle only because both fire bullets. Both are meant to hit different targets using different bullets at different ranges.
Design philosophy.
Design philosophy.
Once again, design philosophy. Pistol vs rifle.
Design philosophy.
I am yet to learn a "design philosophy" which produces a rifle with same range, velocity and bullet mass as a pistol.
You cann't compare two weapons IF one of them outclasses another. If a rifle can ONLY achieve (in terms of range, stopping power (mainly bullet weight, rate of fire and velocity) same as a pistol, then its simply a shitty rifle! Design philosophy or no design philosophy!
In this case, Brahmos outclasses the ASMP in range-payload performance. Higher range, bigger payload, more agile, actually has a seeker, can hit mobile targets. Pretty much everything is in favour of Brahmos.
No, it does not. The Brahmos Air Launched range is similar to ASMP / ASMP-A. Its payload is 200-300 KG just like ASMP/ASMP-A. It weighs 2(NG variant)-3(current variant) times ASMP/ASMP-A.
Brahmos can at best hit slow moving large targets like ships or fixed targets like buildings. Seeker is electronic component. NONE of them can explain a 900 KG weight gain in NG variant OR a 1600 KG weight gain in Air Launched version.