British/Italian Tempest (GCAP) Fighter : News and Discussion


It says TD in 2025.

"The aim would be to fly a demonstrator for a piloted aircraft by 2025."

FCAS is not even in the PDP phase whereas AMCA is entering FSED phase. FCAS is exactly where AMCA was back in 2011, when ADA entered the 18-month long feasibility studies. The French and Germans have recently signed up for a 2-year feasibility studies phase.

As of Tejas, it is a stretch to imagine Mk-1A achieving IOC by that time. Forget Mk-2. If we're lucky, it will fly around same time as FCAS.

Mk1A? It doesn't have to go through IOC. The production configuration will be ready in 2020, and the first squadron will be delivered before 2022.

Mk2 prototypes will enter production this year.

As I said, the FCAS prototype is scheduled for a 2025 flight.

I'd expect sometime between 2027 and 2030. The same time AMCA enters LSP phase. If Rafale's development is anything to go by, they could take 5 years after the TD phase to have a first flight of the prototype. Then they need 9 years of flight testing, which meets their "close to 2040" timeframe.

If you're expecting AMCA to be in LSP in 6 years, I can't say anything except that you seem to be suffering from a serious case of extreme optimism.

Why? Even LCA entered LSP phase 6 years after first flight. AMCA entering LSP between 2027 and 2030 is equivalent to 5 years and 8 years. It's pretty normal.
 
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It says TD in 2025.

"The aim would be to fly a demonstrator for a piloted aircraft by 2025."


Yes, that is first flight. However how similar the TD will be to the final product is hard to say.

But it signals that the tech is expected to begin flight testing in 2025.

FCAS is not even in the PDP phase whereas AMCA is entering FSED phase. FCAS is exactly where AMCA was back in 2011

So where is the AMCA TD? I don't see it flying anywhere.

when ADA entered the 18-month long feasibility studies. The French and Germans have recently signed up for a 2-year feasibility studies phase.

You forget to take Indian Stretched Time into account.

If you expect the FCAS partners to function according to the same timelines that ADA is, then by 2013 the AMCA TD should have been flying.

Mk1A? It doesn't have to go through IOC. The production configuration will be ready in 2020, and the first squadron will be delivered before 2022.

Complete first squadron of a plane delivered in 3 years from now...of a production standard that isn't even flight-tested yet. (incorporating new radar, EW, MAWS etc. will require significant re-testing). As I said, a severe case of extreme optimism.

Mk2 prototypes will enter production this year.

You mean 2019?

I'd expect sometime between 2027 and 2030. The same time AMCA enters LSP phase.

I don't know how you expect AMCA to be in LSP by the time FCAS prototype is flying. When it's clear the AMCA TD itself won't be flying anytime before FCAS TD will be.

Why? Even LCA entered LSP phase 6 years after first flight.

I'm saying 6 years from now - when we haven't even seen a 1:1 scale static ground test rig of AMCA.
 
Yes, that is first flight. However how similar the TD will be to the final product is hard to say.

But it signals that the tech is expected to begin flight testing in 2025.

The point is, as I've already said, the FCAS will only be a TD while Mk2 will be nearing IOC at the time.

So where is the AMCA TD? I don't see it flying anywhere.

2022-23.

You forget to take Indian Stretched Time into account.

It won't affect the program a lot now, since the TDs will soon hit the production phase. The 2 TDs and first 2 prototypes in particular will see no major issues.

If you expect the FCAS partners to function according to the same timelines that ADA is, then by 2013 the AMCA TD should have been flying.

Germany is a very special entity. In our case, AMCA was put on hold in order to push forward the development of LCA. While the Europeans do not face the same issue, they still have a lot of bureaucratic hurdles to cross, along with workshare negotiations and financial commitment. AMCA has to face significantly lesser bureaucratic hurdles.

Complete first squadron of a plane delivered in 3 years from now...of a production standard that isn't even flight-tested yet. (incorporating new radar, EW, MAWS etc. will require significant re-testing). As I said, a severe case of extreme optimism.

It won't be a problem. The Mk1A will be validated from 2020 onwards. Most of the testing is already being carried out through the Jaguar upgrade program, alongside LCA.

You mean 2019?

Yeah.

I don't know how you expect AMCA to be in LSP by the time FCAS prototype is flying. When it's clear the AMCA TD itself won't be flying anytime before FCAS TD will be.

The AMCA will enter FSED phase this year. Which means the first TD will be ready in 3-4 years.

However every year FSED is delayed, so will the TD's first flight. But I don't see it being delayed anymore considering LCA Mk1's development is pretty much completed.

I'm saying 6 years from now - when we haven't even seen a 1:1 scale static ground test rig of AMCA.

I had already said that the LSP phase will begin between 2027 and 2030, which is around the time the first FCAS prototype will have first flight.
 
The point is, as I've already said, the FCAS will only be a TD while Mk2 will be nearing IOC at the time.

Even if Mk2 TD flies in 2020 (which it won't), very optimistic to believe IOC in 5 years. Even a relatively less complicated aircraft like LCH couldn't do that in 5 years, even though many of the techs were already tested on Dhruv-WSI.

Mk2 on the other hand is going to be an almost completely new aircraft.


We'll see about that. We're lucky if we can even see Mk2 PV (or even TD) flying by that time in reality.

It won't be a problem. The Mk1A will be validated from 2020 onwards. Most of the testing is already being carried out through the Jaguar upgrade program, alongside LCA.

Integrating off the shelf stuff on one aircraft won't help integration with another, completely different aircraft. That only makes sense when you're integrating with the intent of testing the tech (like using Mirage to test Rafale equipment). Still it requires re-testing on the new aircraft.


So they're gonna start building a Mk2 TD even before ever building a Mk1A series production variant?

They even froze the design of Mk2?

The AMCA will enter FSED phase this year. Which means the first TD will be ready in 3-4 years.

However every year FSED is delayed, so will the TD's first flight. But I don't see it being delayed anymore considering LCA Mk1's development is pretty much completed.

But Mk1A is nowhere near ready and Mk2 is still on drawing board with HAL's manufacturing duties yet to start. So how is HAL going to go off and start building AMCA TDs? Till now ADA was free to play with AMCA on their drawing boards, but once HAL's duties start, the Mk1A and Mk2 take precedence and neither HAL nor IAF would allot any importance to AMCA other than being on back burner for a long time.

And AMCA is not HTT40 for HAL to build and test on its own budgets.

I really don't see any AMCA TD materializing before FCAS does. Like you said the Franco-German combine has no other fighter development to worry about, but we do and will continue to do till post-2025 (or till whenever Mk2 achieves FOC).

And we've been unable to get Mk1 FOC for nearly a decade after IOC.
 
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Even if Mk2 TD flies in 2020 (which it won't), very optimistic to believe IOC in 5 years. Even a relatively less complicated aircraft like LCH couldn't do that in 5 years, even though many of the techs were already tested on Dhruv-WSI.

Mk2 on the other hand is going to be an almost completely new aircraft.[/quote]

There won't be a TD for Mk2, only fully configured prototypes.

As for LCH, it's a completely different helicopter, whereas Mk2 is simply a larger Mk1 with canards. If you've read post 22, the LCH has gone through the same problem as LCA, where stuff had to be worked on from scratch. For example, the indigenous Automatic Flight Control System was tested on it only in Jan 2018.

Integrating off the shelf stuff on one aircraft won't help integration with another, completely different aircraft. That only makes sense when you're integrating with the intent of testing the tech (like using Mirage to test Rafale equipment). Still it requires re-testing on the new aircraft.

It requires less than a year, 6 months in fact. It took only a year for LCA Mk1 also, one of the reasons why they announced IOC-1 just 1 year after the Mk1's fully configuration prototype was released. And this time, Mk1 is already certified and validated, so the switch to Mk1A is the equivalent of releasing a new prototype with new avionics. 2 aircraft will be used for certification.

So they're gonna start building a Mk2 TD even before ever building a Mk1A series production variant?

Both programs are unrelated though. One's being headed by ADA, the other by HAL. The Mk1A is merely the extension of the Mk1.

They even froze the design of Mk2?

It's possible they may announce something during the air show.

But Mk1A is nowhere near ready and Mk2 is still on drawing board with HAL's manufacturing duties yet to start. So how is HAL going to go off and start building AMCA TDs? Till now ADA was free to play with AMCA on their drawing boards, but once HAL's duties start, the Mk1A and Mk2 take precedence and neither HAL nor IAF would allot any importance to AMCA other than being on back burner for a long time.

I don't think HAL will build the AMCA's TDs and prototypes. ADA wants a private company to do the honours, under ADA's supervision.

I really don't see any AMCA TD materializing before FCAS does. Like you said the Franco-German combine has no other fighter development to worry about, but we do and will continue to do till post-2025 (or till whenever Mk2 achieves FOC).

AFAIK, the development teams for Mk2 and AMCA are different. So both are going to happen simultaneously.

And we've been unable to get Mk1 FOC for nearly a decade after IOC.

This shouldn't matter. The flight envelop was opened up in just 2 years after IOC. The problem came with mid-air refuelling, which they took years to work on. So this won't be a problem for both Mk1A and Mk2.
 
AMCA MOVES AHEAD

The advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) programme is also moving ahead, with a feasibility study having been completed. On the suggestion of the air force, it has been decided to proceed with a technology demonstration phase before launching full-scale engineering development.

The aircraft has been described as having a twin-fin, twin-engined configuration with an air flow designed to reduce its radar cross section. It has also been ambitiously proposed that the entire external surface of the aircraft will be manufactured using carbon fibre composites. The Kaveri programme is now being revived with assistance from Safran to ready this engine for the AMCA.

"We are in discussions with the Indian customer about weapons options for the AMCA. Several of our systems that are already in the [Indian air force’s] inventory could offer excellent combat performance for the AMCA," the MBDA spokesperson confirms.

In February last year, the ADA called for vendors interested in taking up the manufacture of a next-generation technology demonstrator. The agency has asked for two prototype aircraft to be built at a final assembly and check-out facility to be located at the air force's Sulur air base, near the southern Indian city of Coimbatore. From the beginning of interaction between ADA and the vendor, it is proposed that the roll-out of the first fully equipped next-generation technology demonstrator will take place in three and a half years.

ANALYSIS: Tejas regaining its lustre
 
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And we've been unable to get Mk1 FOC for nearly a decade after IOC.
You got your wish, finally.

Tejas MK-1 gets Final Operational Clearance, IAF to get a more lethal fighter

Tejas MK-1 gets Final Operational Clearance, IAF to get a more lethal fighter
Updated:
Feb 12, 2019, 11:43 AM IST


New Delhi: Tejas MK-1, India indigenous Ligh Combat Aircraft, received the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) in December 2018 and the Indian Air Force will soon start receiving an upgraded and a more lethal version of the fighter jet.
...


Fully Loaded and Home-Made: India Begins Production of Tejas Fighter Jet

Fully Loaded and Home-Made: India Begins Production of Tejas Fighter Jet
18:09 11.02.2019

......
The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) handed over FOC configuration documents to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited on 31 December 2018, "which is duly cleared by the Centre of Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILAC) to go ahead with the production of FOC fighter aircraft. Accordingly, HAL has taken up the production of LCA, FOC fighter aircraft," Subhash Bhamre, India's Minister of State for Defence said on Monday.
......
 
You got your wish, finally.

Tejas MK-1 gets Final Operational Clearance, IAF to get a more lethal fighter

Tejas MK-1 gets Final Operational Clearance, IAF to get a more lethal fighter
Updated:
Feb 12, 2019, 11:43 AM IST


New Delhi: Tejas MK-1, India indigenous Ligh Combat Aircraft, received the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) in December 2018 and the Indian Air Force will soon start receiving an upgraded and a more lethal version of the fighter jet.
...


Fully Loaded and Home-Made: India Begins Production of Tejas Fighter Jet

Fully Loaded and Home-Made: India Begins Production of Tejas Fighter Jet
18:09 11.02.2019

......
The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) handed over FOC configuration documents to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited on 31 December 2018, "which is duly cleared by the Centre of Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILAC) to go ahead with the production of FOC fighter aircraft. Accordingly, HAL has taken up the production of LCA, FOC fighter aircraft," Subhash Bhamre, India's Minister of State for Defence said on Monday.
......

Nah, FOC itself has not been achieved. Just the configuration meant for FOC standard has been approved.

The planes made under this standard have to get flying and satisfy IAF before actual FOC can be accorded.

HAL gets nod to produce weaponised version of Tejas aircraft
 
Taking sides: Italian defense industry rep attacks Franco-German fighter deal

Taking sides: Italian defense industry rep attacks Franco-German fighter deal
By: Tom Kington   February 15

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Italian firm Leonardo owns facilities in the U.K. and would spearhead Italy’s work on the Tempest jet should it partner with the U.K. (Tolga Akmen/AFP via Getty Images)
ROME — Plans by France and Germany to team up on a next-generation fighter are an affront to Italy and will weaken the European Union, according to the head of an Italian defense industry association.

In a strong attack on the Future Air Combat System, or FCAS, deal, Guido Crosetto told Defense News that Italy would seek closer ties with the U.K. as a consequence, despite the U.K.’s pending exit from the EU.

“The fighter deal between Germany and France leaves all others on the margins. And since the only other country with equal industrial capabilities is Italy, the deal is clearly against Italy,” he said.

“Have France and Germany tried to get the Italy involved? It doesn’t look that way,” he added. “Additionally, if two European stakeholders strike deals together, how should the others react? This risks weakening the EU, while giving more justification to those trying to weaken the EU.”

Crosetto is the head of the Italian defense industry association AIAD.

After signing to pursue a joint fighter last year, France and Germany this month awarded home players Airbus and Dassault a first contract for a concept study worth €65 million (U.S. $73 million), while Safran Aircraft Engines and MTU Aero Engines announced a partnership to supply propulsion.

The FCAS program covers both manned and unmanned aircraft, which are due in service from 2040 to replace French Rafale fighters and Eurofighters currently flown by Germany.

Showing that Paris and Berlin do want additional partners, Spain signed up Feb. 14, stating it would become an equal partner on the program.

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But in the belief that Germany and France will call the shots, Crosetto said Italy would do well to sign up with the U.K. to work on the British future fighter known as Tempest.

“A jilted partner has the right to look around for other partners, and the U.K. has asked us to join Tempest,” he said.

Italy’s junior defense minister, Angelo Tofalo, said in December that the country “needed to enter the program immediately.”



Italian government praise for F-35 shows early doubts waning
One key official offers high praise for the aircraft, following earlier indications that the populist government had soured on the procurement plan.

By: Tom Kington

Crosetto said he was not alarmed by the potential difficulty of doing business with the U.K. if and when it leaves the European customs union, which is due to happen this year. The split will be a headache for Italy’s defense champion Leonardo, which owns facilities in the U.K. and would spearhead Italy’s work on Tempest.

“Brexit would mean more red tape for Leonardo but would not be a difficulty — the Italy-U.K. relationship would remain very positive,” he said.

As Germany and France signal progress on FCAS, they are also drawing closer politically in the face of Brexit and the rise of populist governments in Europe, including in Italy.

Last month, Italian Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte told Italian daily Corriere della Sera he was upset by France’s offer to Germany to get it a permanent seat at the U.N. Security Council, despite long-term plans in Europe to give a new seat to the EU, and not to an individual country.

“Looks like they are making fun of us,” Conte said.

Added Crosetto: “That offer of a U.N. seat is hugely important to the French-German deal, and goes way beyond defense deals.”

Italy is already involved in a row with France over migrant quotas and Italian support for the gilet jaunes protesters in France, which have targeted the government of Emmanuel Macron.

Crosetto said the current rift with Paris was not a cause of Italy’s being sidelined on the fighter deal. “That predates the recent rows,” he said.

The new Franco-German tie-up suggests the two countries will now look to work together on joint programs that can draw on cash made available by the new European Defence Fund, possibly isolating Italy.

Crosetto said the Italian government was now obliged to invest more heavily in Italy’s defense industry to make it more competitive and better able to grab slices of the funding.

“Industry now needs the government to invest more,” he said.
 
Leonardo targets role on UK's Tempest next-gen fighter

Leonardo is hopeful that Italy can join the UK's Tempest sixth-generation fighter programme, building on the involvement of its defence electronics division in the effort.

Although the company is headquartered in Rome, it has a large presence in the UK, including the former Selex operation.

Norman Bone, managing director of Leonardo's electronics division, said during a financial results briefing on 14 March: "We are very clear as a company that it would be our preference for a collaboration that included Italy in the long term on Tempest."

The Rome-based group's senior executive team is making efforts "to help position [Leonardo] so that Italy could become a partner" in the project, which is intended to replace the Eurofighter Typhoon in the long term, Bone says – adding: "That’s a strong preference."

Leonardo is a partner in the Eurofighter consortium, producing around 20% of each aircraft – principally the port-side wing – and performing final assembly on those for the Italian air force and some export customers.

At the 2018 Farnborough air show, the UK government revealed plans for the Tempest project as part of the country's future combat air strategy.

A concept for the aircraft was developed through a collaboration named "Team Tempest", which includes Leonardo alongside BAE Systems and Rolls-Royce – as respective airframe and engine suppliers – MBDA and the Royal Air Force's Rapid Capabilities Office.

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BAE Systems

Saab has also recently indicated an interest in joining the programme.

Lucio Valerio Cioffi, managing director of Leonardo’s aircraft division, notes that the manufacturer's primary objective is to play a part in the development of a sixth-generation fighter under "the new European defence concept".

But he says: "We have a lot of commonalities with the UK initiative, also in terms of [existing] platforms on the table."

In Bone's view, there is "no closer relationship" among European air forces than between the RAF and Italian service.

As both nations operate or have employed the Panavia Tornado, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-35 and versions of General Atomics' Predator-series remotely piloted aircraft, Bone says the Italian air force and RAF are "strongly aligned in how they envisage future [air] combat".

For the technical support of their Eurofighter fleets, the two countries co-operate in a "very integrated manner" and have "mutual dependency on each other", he says.

France, Germany and Spain are jointly pursuing a separate project to develop a next-generation fighter for their air forces.
 
UK holds Team Tempest industry day | Jane's 360

UK holds Team Tempest industry day
Gareth Jennings, London - Jane's Defence Weekly

19 March 2019



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Seen at its reveal at the Farnborough Airshow in 2018, the Tempest future fighter is being developed to enter service with the RAF in the 2030s. Source: IHS Markit/Patrick Allen

The UK government has drawn together representatives from the across the nation's defence aerospace industry to engage on the Tempest future fighter and other aspects of the wider Future Combat Air System (FCAS).

The event, held at Farnborough on 19 March, was the first time that companies outside of the four current Team Tempest participants of BAE Systems, Leonardo UK, MBDA, and Rolls-Royce had been invited to collaborate on the concepts, technologies, and capabilities that should lead to an operational combat aircraft entering service with the Royal Air Force (RAF) in the 2030s. The Tempest will be part of wider FCAS that will include swarming unmanned aircraft and other capabilities.

With the Minister for Defence Procurement, Stuart Andrew, launching the event, some 300 delegates including subject matter experts (SMEs) and technology-led organisations were in attendance "to build connections and take part in a series of briefings outlining the capabilities and skills needed to shape the future of Combat Air System delivery in the UK", BAE Systems said.

The Tempest programme is a fundamental pillar of the Ministry of Defence's (MoD's) Combat Air Strategy announced in February last year, with GBP2 billion (USD2.65 billion) initial investment in the project announced at the 2018 Farnborough Air Show.

According to BAE Systems, which along with its three industrial partners is also working with the RAF Rapid Capabilities Office, Defence Science and Technology Laboratory (Dstl), and Defence Equipment and Support (DE&S) on the Tempest project, the industry event was followed by a classified briefing.

"The event today has set into motion a series of discussions to develop the right capabilities, the right technologies, and the right level of agility and collaborative working to meet the demands of this future acquisition programme, delivering a prosperous and sustainable sector," BAE Systems noted, although neither it nor the UK government disclosed if or when this industry day might result in contracts.
 
Sweden signs up to join Tempest fighter programme

Sweden signs up to join Tempest fighter programme
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Britain’s Team Tempest programme to build a new fighter jet has moved a step closer to getting into the air with Sweden poised to announce it has signed up as the project’s first international partner.

Tempest - a collaboration between industry partners BAE Systems, Rolls-Royce, MBDA and Leonardo and the British government - was unveiled at the Farnborough air show last year.

The jet - planned to be in service in 2035 - is aimed at maintaining Britain as a world power in military aircraft.
 
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Sweden signs up to join Tempest fighter programme

Sweden signs up to join Tempest fighter programme
View attachment 7867

Britain’s Team Tempest programme to build a new fighter jet has moved a step closer to getting into the air with Sweden poised to announce it has signed up as the project’s first international partner.

Tempest - a collaboration between industry partners BAE Systems, Rolls-Royce, MBDA and Leonardo and the British government - was unveiled at the Farnborough air show last year.

The jet - planned to be in service in 2035 - is aimed at maintaining Britain as a world power in military aircraft.

That's a surprise. Never thought the Swedes would finally be interested in a twin engine jet.

I wonder if the Tempest is in the Typhoon's weight class or the F-22's.
 
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That's a surprise. Never thought the Swedes would finally be interested in a twin engine jet.

I wonder if the Tempest is in the Typhoon's weight class or the F-22's.

I was always under the impression that it would be a a stealthy Typhoon... does the UK really have a need for heavy stealth fighter?
 
That's a surprise. Never thought the Swedes would finally be interested in a twin engine jet.

I wonder if the Tempest is in the Typhoon's weight class or the F-22's.

No no. The swedes want to learn PR, Digital Marketing and Visual Design, event marketing etc.
 
I was always under the impression that it would be a a stealthy Typhoon... does the UK really have a need for heavy stealth fighter?
There's no such thing as a light stealth fighter. The need to carry weapons and drop tank fuel internally precludes it.
 
There's no such thing as a light stealth fighter. The need to carry weapons and drop tank fuel internally precludes it.

It depends on the context in which you want to use the fighter.
In UK's case, they need to defend NATO from Russia so they need long legs.
India may not need so much range for Pakistan or Tibet.
Saying so, feasibility studies are ongoing whether it will be economical or even possible to turn Tejas airframe into 5th gen LSA.
The benefits of having your own design ready and flying is that you can plug and play it as and when situation demands.Each improvement feeds into the next one saving cost and time.
I think Indian aerospace industry is at a point where France was in 1960s wrt mastering a design and improving it gradually with each iteration- from Mirage 3-Mirage 5-Mirage 2000 and finally Rafale.
That is why I am against India joining Tempest program, we should grow what we have already developed.But we should be open to junior partners.
 
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I was always under the impression that it would be a a stealthy Typhoon... does the UK really have a need for heavy stealth fighter?

Who knows? I thought the French NGF will also be a Rafale equivalent, but it turned out to be a PAK FA equivalent.

Heavy = More modern avionics because of more relaxed size and weight restrictions, more payload, more fuel etc. So it's much more capable overall.
 
India may not need so much range for Pakistan or Tibet.

Oh, yes, we do. Look at the size of our security interests. For home defence alone, it stretches from the Iran-Afghan border to the Mongolian border to the vast reaches of ASEAN and the entire IOR. And this is without considering the interests we will eventually have as our eocnomy gets bigger and we have to protect more of our assets overseas, including our massive diaspora which will eventually be bigger than the populations of most countries.