We can't afford FCAS R&D.
It doesn't look like Dassault is interested in JVs.
Future Combat Air System (FCAS) - France/Germany
- Thread starter randomradio
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We can't afford FCAS R&D.
It doesn't look like Dassault is interested in JVs.
French politicians are persuaded that "building Europe" is worth the sacrifice and that it will somehow pay off in the end. It hasn't so far, but they haven't changed their tack anyway.
If that's the price, then why not just give in to the German demands, but through a competition? The best FBW on the TD wins.
I just feel like if the Germans get a controlling stake in the program, US interference will force delays. Anything to soften up the French after all.
That's what I was arguing for years ago. Best athlete as selected by competition. Let everyone fund their own R&D with their own money, and in the end go for the best performance. Drawback: more obviously costly (co-development is also more costly, but that's not intuitive). Advantage: even if the Germans somehow manage to win some of the competitions, France will have ready alternatives for export prospects. So say we want to sell to the Republic of Bananastan but Germany puts a veto because they provide the turboencabulator? That's fine, we'll just use our own turboencabulator instead on the export model.
Nowadays I'm just arguing for the whole thing to get canceled because I'm so fed up with the Germans.
Trappier argues that only NGF is the main area of contention, so the American model of two competing TDs should work out. Winner gets all, loser gets some secondary workshare. But I'm sure the Germans will disagree, 'cause they know they will lose.
If the Germans do end up with the F-35, I'd say you should cancel. That's already a breach of trust.
The german army unreadyness problem is not 2040+, it is tomorrow or nearly.
It is why it is interesting to share it between EU (Fr + Span ?) and India
A400M clears the first hurdle as a Remote Carrier launcher
Airbus A400M, the world’s most advanced multi-role airlifter utilised by military forces around the globe, has demonstrated an airborne launch of a drone fulfilling a vital function for the Future Combat Air System.
airrecognition.com
The SCAF as seen by the canard enchainé, it's a dead end
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
HARD HIT for Macron, who was counting on a triumph during his European presidency: the first jewel of European defence, the "aircraft of the future", remains on the tarmac. And with it the Scaf (air combat system of the future), which was to equip this super-zinc, whose control would be entrusted to Dassault, and a swarm of combat drones, designed by the Germans of Airbus.
After some tug-of-war between France, Germany and Spain, an agreement was finally signed on 31 August. Seven months later, nothing has followed. Worse: Dassault has repatriated a hundred of its engineers who were working on the project in Berlin, and engineering contracts with subcontractors have been cancelled.
Eric Trappier, the head of Dassault, issued an ultimatum in mid-March: "The Scaf must be under French control, not under co-leadership!
The answer: two salvos of missiles against the project. Firstly, the Germans demanded once again to become co-owners of the French patents, including the old ones. Secondly, they castigated two characteristics of the future aircraft desired by the French staff: take-off from an aircraft carrier (Germany does not have one) and nuclear missiles. The purchase announced on 14 March by Berlin of 35 F-35s (an order launched in a hurry in order to show Putin that Germany would keep him at bay with NATO atomic charges) sounded the death knell.
"The Germans have decided to ally themselves with the Americans on combat aircraft in exchange for maintaining their position on the US automobile market," says Senator Hélène Conway (PS), author of a senatorial report on the subject. Will Europe's defence system exist when the United States enters Europe? A.G
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
HARD HIT for Macron, who was counting on a triumph during his European presidency: the first jewel of European defence, the "aircraft of the future", remains on the tarmac. And with it the Scaf (air combat system of the future), which was to equip this super-zinc, whose control would be entrusted to Dassault, and a swarm of combat drones, designed by the Germans of Airbus.
After some tug-of-war between France, Germany and Spain, an agreement was finally signed on 31 August. Seven months later, nothing has followed. Worse: Dassault has repatriated a hundred of its engineers who were working on the project in Berlin, and engineering contracts with subcontractors have been cancelled.
Eric Trappier, the head of Dassault, issued an ultimatum in mid-March: "The Scaf must be under French control, not under co-leadership!
The answer: two salvos of missiles against the project. Firstly, the Germans demanded once again to become co-owners of the French patents, including the old ones. Secondly, they castigated two characteristics of the future aircraft desired by the French staff: take-off from an aircraft carrier (Germany does not have one) and nuclear missiles. The purchase announced on 14 March by Berlin of 35 F-35s (an order launched in a hurry in order to show Putin that Germany would keep him at bay with NATO atomic charges) sounded the death knell.
"The Germans have decided to ally themselves with the Americans on combat aircraft in exchange for maintaining their position on the US automobile market," says Senator Hélène Conway (PS), author of a senatorial report on the subject. Will Europe's defence system exist when the United States enters Europe? A.G
First the Anglos now ze Germans . I wonder why's it nobody gets along with the French. Of course on paper , French objections seem valid but this is a one sided view. We don't know ze German position.
Ze Germans could well come back & echo India during it's partnership with Russia on the Su-57 imbroglio & say if they're 50% partners in the JV & they're contributing 50% to the funds they are entitled to make demands.
You are right, but ze germans are not allowed to have access to all the Dassault know how because they share the developpment phase of this bird.
In one hand they purchase F35 without any ToT (at least not known, but we know the americans are very rigid on it), and on the other hand they want France to give 70 years of best practice and want to lead some R&D works even when they are not among the best. It's a no way.
Better building our own bird alone (or with Spain and maybe some others) and let ze germans in the LM hands.
That's all very fine but we're discussing billions of Euros in funding which I'm sure France can arrange or in any event it can manage especially if has to safeguard it's sacred tenets of strategic autonomy especially when both the EU or NATO are going nowhere or more to the point not in the direction France wants to take them in which is an independent path but horror of horrors it seems more destined to follow American's lead in this sphere with the UK ensuring that in NATO by egging on the E Europeans .
Coming back to FCAS , I've no doubt in my mind that Dassault will build a true 6th Gen FA on its own , come what may & France would effortlessly bankroll the entire endeavour come what may no matter if it costs 50 or 100 billion Euros . It's a win win situation all around.
For India, a JV is not about sharing funds, it's about getting access to technologies. The IAF hopes that MRFA and AMCA will give us the technologies needed to shed our reliance on foreign powers. The goal is to stop imports entirely.
As much localisation as much is possible would be more practical. But yes ultimate aim is to be largely self sufficient.
We can help you make a development and share ownership with you, but not give you ownership rights to developments that were made before without you. We have been investing in military aeronautics for 70 years and the Germans would like to be on the same level as us after the SCAF programme, even though they have bought most of their aeronautical equipment or produced it in cooperation without having the most difficult parts.
We must be aware that if a programme costs €100 billion in cooperation with Germany, it will cost €40 billion if Dassault does it alone. This is the feedback we have received from the Eurofighter and Rafale programmes.
It's the same story as before- if the Rafale can defeat jets like the F-22/F-35/J-20 etc, then fine, else we will need a stopgap of 2 squadrons of Su-57/NGAD until we make a post-AMCA fighter around 2050 to face new threats. The FCAS doesn't fit the bill 'cause we need the capability introduced between 2030-35. But all jets from AMCA Mk2 onwards have to be as indigenous as possible.
@Bon Plan
The goal of the MRFA is more about building up an alternative aerospace ecosystem to HAL & in all probability intervention if & when ADA / DRDO get stuck in their various projects notably AMCA .
As regards the single most important piece of technology nothing could be greater that that for the development of a turbofan . Since that's in the bag let's hope the entire venture proceeds without any hiccups especially those relating to matters of tech transfer or in performance.
The mathematics doesn't make sense . How can joint funding of a venture be a total of 100 billion Euros but on an individual basis cost only 40 billion Euros ? If anything solo projects like this will need more funds .