Future Combat Air System (FCAS) - France/Germany

[Arpuism]

At this point, India can use this opportunity to incorporate Spain in its future fighter programs since Spain is likely to be least fussy.
The two options which i can think of are:-
Option-1:- Making Spain partner in AMCA which is going to be equivalent to FCAS as both were to be 5.5+ Gen programs.
Pros: Cost sharing from Spain and additional orders to bring cost down. Also entry into european market
Cons: However, India may be looking to be completely self dependent for AMCA. Spain as partner will keep some techs for its industry.
Option-2:- Making Spain partner in TEDBF program with TEDBF mk1 (4.5+ gen) for IN & TEDBF mk2 (5.5+ gen) for Spain and IAF and export
Pros: Same as for option 1 plus additional option for IAF and healthy competition to AMCA
Cons: Overstress on ADA and contradictions in requirements of IN and Spanish Air Force

 

[Lolwa]

FCAS doesn't meet our timeframe. Both AMCA and TEDBF will see fully indigenous successors. The need for the Su-57 is temporary and survives only on a speculative basis on the internet. In 10 more years, even fighter jets will go into the negative imports list.

Amca should continue along with the FCAS. We need a sixth gen plane

 

[Lolwa]

Su-57 Mk-2 is yet to be formally certified. If it meets the IAF's requirements , things can proceed. In any event this seems likely to happen only in the latter half of this decade. Sanctions won't apply as on paper we're still developmental partners ( we haven't withdrawn participation nor terminated the project from our end ) & have contributed to the project which predates CAATSA.

FCAS is too distant in the future to be discussed today. What would be the strategic scenario then can't be predicted today . Hence we can't be reasonably speculate on what would our needs be then .

Tempest would turn into a Typhoon / Eurofighter only if the Germans are let back in otherwise there's a good chance FCAS meets the fate of the Typhoon / Eurofighter .

I doubt whether anyone in the government or the user is interested in the FCAS as of today . In any case membership isn't open nor do we have the funds to fund 2 x 5.5 Gen + Fighter programs.

Su-57 mki isn't happening with CAATSA in place. The Germans will most likely shift and join the tempest. Germans are too mentally enslaved by the Americans to do anything that would help Europe. Also the amca will be superior to su-57 no point in wasting monkey on a 4.5 gen fighter which is inferior to the Rafale.

At this point, India can use this opportunity to incorporate Spain in its future fighter programs since Spain is likely to be least fussy.
The two options which i can think of are:-
Option-1:- Making Spain partner in AMCA which is going to be equivalent to FCAS as both were to be 5.5+ Gen programs.
Pros: Cost sharing from Spain and additional orders to bring cost down. Also entry into european market
Cons: However, India may be looking to be completely self dependent for AMCA. Spain as partner will keep some techs for its industry.
Option-2:- Making Spain partner in TEDBF program with TEDBF mk1 (4.5+ gen) for IN & TEDBF mk2 (5.5+ gen) for Spain and IAF and export
Pros: Same as for option 1 plus additional option for IAF and healthy competition to AMCA
Cons: Overstress on ADA and contradictions in requirements of IN and Spanish Air Force

Spain is irrelevant and has nothing worthwhile to offer.

 

[Arpuism]

Spain is irrelevant and has nothing worthwhile to offer.

Spain can offer investment in the project and also orders for itself which will bring down the cost. It was made partner in FCAS for the very same purpose.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Su-57 mki isn't happening with CAATSA in place.

CAATSA doesn't apply to deals made before it was enacted.

The Germans will most likely shift and join the tempest. Germans are too mentally enslaved by the Americans to do anything that would help Europe.

Also the amca will be superior to su-57 no point in wasting monkey on a 4.5 gen fighter which is inferior to the Rafale.

The definitive AMCA would be the Mk-2 version which I don't expect would receive it's FOC before 2037-38 T/L.

Our need for a 5th Gen FA is right now as the expected confrontation with the Chinese is expected to happen in this decade which is why the MRFA is also required in adequate nos right now not in the next decade where it'd make more sense to focus on AMCA Mk-1 & Mk-2 instead churning them out in more nos if required.

Spain is irrelevant and has nothing worthwhile to offer.

 

[randomradio]

Amca should continue along with the FCAS. We need a sixth gen plane

Not in the timeframe envisaged.

After MRFA, if we don't import 2 or 3 squadrons of Su-57/NGAD between 2030 and 2035, we will never import ever again. By 2035, while AMCA Mk2 is being flight tested, we will begin designing the aircraft that will replace the MKI. By 2045-50 we will have it enter service.

It's the same for the navy. IAC-2 will use SH or Rafale M for a long time, until replaced by a new jet that will enter design stage after TEDBF, with IAC-3 onwards using this new design. In fact, the navy's next jet can be simpler than the IAF's next design and can come with a faster delivery cycle.

So FCAS is not necessary for either service. In fact, with two high end design teams available, it will be an insult to them to still continue speaking of imports.

 

[Lolwa]

Not in the timeframe envisaged.

After MRFA, if we don't import 2 or 3 squadrons of Su-57/NGAD between 2030 and 2035, we will never import ever again. By 2035, while AMCA Mk2 is being flight tested, we will begin designing the aircraft that will replace the MKI. By 2045-50 we will have it enter service.

It's the same for the navy. IAC-2 will use SH or Rafale M for a long time, until replaced by a new jet that will enter design stage after TEDBF, with IAC-3 onwards using this new design. In fact, the navy's next jet can be simpler than the IAF's next design and can come with a faster delivery cycle.

So FCAS is not necessary for either service. In fact, with two high end design teams available, it will be an insult to them to still continue speaking of imports.

But we won't be able to buy the su-57 now. CAATSA will be imposed and then either the Americans will be forced to sell us f-35's. With the present reaction of the Americans against GoI for abstaining, I don't think we will be able to successfully buy su-57's now. It's only possible if the Americans reject selling us the f-35's even after we go through with su-57's.
Also FCAS will be made with the same considerations the Rafale was made so it will be carrier as well as nuke capable unlike the tempest

CAATSA doesn't apply to deals made before it was enacted.

It will be applied since the order of su-57 will happen post 2020. CAATSA will be applicable in this case unlike the s400 deal which was pre-2018. I have huge doubts if we go for the s500/s550 too unless we have a clause for it in the s400 deal.

 

[_Anonymous_]

But we won't be able to buy the su-57 now. CAATSA will be imposed and then either the Americans will be forced to sell us f-35's. With the present reaction of the Americans against GoI for abstaining, I don't think we will be able to successfully buy su-57's now. It's only possible if the Americans reject selling us the f-35's even after we go through with su-57's.
Also FCAS will be made with the same considerations the Rafale was made so it will be carrier as well as nuke capable unlike the tempest

It will be applied since the order of su-57 will happen post 2020. CAATSA will be applicable in this case unlike the s400 deal which was pre-2018. I have huge doubts if we go for the s500/s550 too unless we have a clause for it in the s400 deal.

The agreement between India & Russia was for joint development & production . We haven't abandoned or terminated the agreement . Should we choose to go in with Su-57 assuming it meets our needs , we can always suggest modifications which satisfies the joint development clause followed by purchasing it .

In any case CAATSA doesn't apply . Of course if the US decides to act vindictive , it's up to us to determine whether we wish to defy or comply with the US demands. The S-400 deal showed that if India believes the system is worth the trouble , it will go ahead with it's purchase. The US can stick their objections up theirs.

 

[Lolwa]

The agreement between India & Russia was for joint development & production . We haven't abandoned or terminated the agreement . Should we choose to go in with Su-57 assuming it meets our needs , we can always suggest modifications which satisfies the joint development clause followed by purchasing it .

In any case CAATSA doesn't apply . Of course if the US decides to act vindictive , it's up to us to determine whether we wish to defy or comply with the US demands. The S-400 deal showed that if India believes the system is worth the trouble , it will go ahead with it's purchase. The US can stick their objections up theirs.

Let's hope that is the case.

 

[Lolwa]

Spain can offer investment in the project and also orders for itself which will bring down the cost. It was made partner in FCAS for the very same purpose.

Spain has good electronics like RWR and stuff similar to Italy. Apart from that I doubt Spain can order more than 3 squadrons of FCAS at best. We are pretty much at similar capabilities. Keep in mind Spain has one of the weakest MIC's in Europe right now. Spanish economy isn't strong enough to offer much investment. It will be as effective a partner as Sweden is in tempest although Sweden can offer a lot more things to the tempest program than Spain.

 

[Arpuism]

Spain has good electronics like RWR and stuff similar to Italy. Apart from that I doubt Spain can order more than 3 squadrons of FCAS at best. We are pretty much at similar capabilities. Keep in mind Spain has one of the weakest MIC's in Europe right now. Spanish economy isn't strong enough to offer much investment. It will be as effective a partner as Sweden is in tempest although Sweden can offer a lot more things to the tempest program than Spain.

AMCA will require much less investment than FCAS and that will be affordable to Spain. Also if we go for TEDBF mk2 (5.5+gen) that will also be much more affordable for Spain. Both AMCA and TEDBF mk2 (if that happens) are not going to be just fighters but they will be a part of combat system which will include many other elements like HAL CATS family, DRDO FUFA, DRDO Ghatak and other futuristic stuff with futuristic indigenous weapon systems. Overall even if they order 3-5 squadrons, these other parts of system that they will require with it will make it a good prospect for Indian industry.

 

[randomradio]

But we won't be able to buy the su-57 now. CAATSA will be imposed and then either the Americans will be forced to sell us f-35's.

CAATSA is irrelevant to India. Whether they want to impose it or not is up to them, but it's they who will lose out on it. They understand very well that when it comes to defence, India will choose Russia over the US. We are already demonstrating it.

If they sanction us this year for the S-400, which they won't, then all the pending defence deals, like the Guardians, Apache etc will just disappear. We will just buy Israeli and Russian equivalents. There's nothing really special about what they want to sell to us, it's all easily replaced.

With the present reaction of the Americans against GoI for abstaining

They are pretty much overreacting. They will bitch and moan about it for some time and then eventually move on. The same with our Russian imports.

Also FCAS will be made with the same considerations the Rafale was made so it will be carrier as well as nuke capable unlike the tempest

It's irrelevant to us. Jaguar, Mirage 2000 and Rafale will be the main nuke bombers for the next 30 years. Drones will become important too.

It will be applied since the order of su-57 will happen post 2020. CAATSA will be applicable in this case unlike the s400 deal which was pre-2018. I have huge doubts if we go for the s500/s550 too unless we have a clause for it in the s400 deal.

Su-57 and S-400 predate CAATSA. But that's only a distraction. The Chinese were sanctioned right away for the Su-35 and S-400 even though deliveries were completed before CAATSA was enacted. If the Americans want to sanction us, they can do it, it doesn't matter. Even the nuke sanctions were a waste of time, it won't be any different now. We can even buy the S-550 and Mig-41 if we want to. They have no real leverage over us.

Think about it this way... By the time we order Su-57, we will be in the 2030s. Let's say we bought it in 2030, then we wait 3 years for delivery, that's 2033. That's when CAATSA will happen. Who gives a flying f&ck by then? Defence imports from the US will pretty much be zero. Our economy will have become self-sufficient. They can do whatever they want at that point, it won't affect us.

 

[A Person]

Ze Germans could well come back & echo India during it's partnership with Russia on the Su-57 imbroglio & say if they're 50% partners in the JV & they're contributing 50% to the funds they are entitled to make demands.

They're contributing 33% of the funds, not 50%.

The mathematics doesn't make sense . How can joint funding of a venture be a total of 100 billion Euros but on an individual basis cost only 40 billion Euros ? If anything solo projects like this will need more funds .

If you do the program solo, you can assign each task to whoever is best suited to fulfill it. If you do the program with the Germans, they will assign each task to whoever is the most in need of learning how to do it.
Basically, France wants to make an aircraft; Germany wants to get subsidies to bring its aero industry up to the same level as those countries that have spent the last 70 years investing in aero R&D, but just at the cost of one single 5-year program instead of at the cost of dozens upon dozens of programs throughout these seven decades.

In the same way that Germany has determined it'd cost them 100 billions just to get their army back in shape. Not to make it a bigger army; just to offset the cost of systemic neglect for the last seven decades. In defense matters, they've been the proverbial grasshopper, even if they like to pretend they are the ant.

FCAS doesn't meet our timeframe.

Heh.

This is like saying, "never is worse than late".

 

[_Anonymous_]

They're contributing 33% of the funds, not 50%.


If you do the program solo, you can assign each task to whoever is best suited to fulfill it. If you do the program with the Germans, they will assign each task to whoever is the most in need of learning how to do it.
Basically, France wants to make an aircraft; Germany wants to get subsidies to bring its aero industry up to the same level as those countries that have spent the last 70 years investing in aero R&D, but just at the cost of one single 5-year program instead of at the cost of dozens upon dozens of programs throughout these seven decades.

In the same way that Germany has determined it'd cost them 100 billions just to get their army back in shape. Not to make it a bigger army; just to offset the cost of systemic neglect for the last seven decades. In defense matters, they've been the proverbial grasshopper, even if they like to pretend they are the ant.

Frankly I wonder why do all non French speaking people especially from Europe or of European descent have such a poor opinion of French intellect or perhaps they take the French for granted.

First it were those accursed Anglo grouping pulling a fast one on Australia depriving the French Naval Group from making a killing ( frankly the deal was too good to be true & you know what they say , if it's too good to be true , it's too good to be true ) & now it's ze Germans.

It just struck me that the English are an ancient Germanic people as well so it sort of makes sense.

Heh.

This is like saying, "never is worse than late".

 

[Lolwa]

AMCA will require much less investment than FCAS and that will be affordable to Spain. Also if we go for TEDBF mk2 (5.5+gen) that will also be much more affordable for Spain. Both AMCA and TEDBF mk2 (if that happens) are not going to be just fighters but they will be a part of combat system which will include many other elements like HAL CATS family, DRDO FUFA, DRDO Ghatak and other futuristic stuff with futuristic indigenous weapon systems. Overall even if they order 3-5 squadrons, these other parts of system that they will require with it will make it a good prospect for Indian industry.

Spaniards wont be interested in amca that would be a massive downgrade for them. Also good luck marketing the amca to anyone. Amca should be our f-22 and should remain a completely indian endeavour for now. Foreign collaboration could be done with tejas mk 1 or FUFA not with the amca.

 

[Lolwa]

Let's say we bought it in 2030, then we wait 3 years for delivery, that's 2033. That's when CAATSA will happen. Who gives a flying f&ck by then?

By that time the Chinese will have over 300 j-20's. The ideal time to buy su-57's is post 2025 after which it will be extremely impractical to buy it. By 2030 most sixth gens will come online in some form or the other. Su-57 is already a generation behind most 5th and 4.75 gen fighters in its class. Plus the amca will be ready by 2030 too.

They're contributing 33% of the funds, not 50%.


If you do the program solo, you can assign each task to whoever is best suited to fulfill it. If you do the program with the Germans, they will assign each task to whoever is the most in need of learning how to do it.
Basically, France wants to make an aircraft; Germany wants to get subsidies to bring its aero industry up to the same level as those countries that have spent the last 70 years investing in aero R&D, but just at the cost of one single 5-year program instead of at the cost of dozens upon dozens of programs throughout these seven decades.

In the same way that Germany has determined it'd cost them 100 billions just to get their army back in shape. Not to make it a bigger army; just to offset the cost of systemic neglect for the last seven decades. In defense matters, they've been the proverbial grasshopper, even if they like to pretend they are the ant.

Heh.

This is like saying, "never is worse than late".

Though off-topic. I hope the Germans get scr*wed in the FCAS deal. They are to uppity for their own good.

 

[Arpuism]

FCAS will be more advanced than AMCA. And they will get a better deal from France than from India.

What project objectives of FCAS were more advanced than AMCA? Kindly provide some details

Spaniards wont be interested in amca that would be a massive downgrade for them. Also good luck marketing the amca to anyone. Amca should be our f-22 and should remain a completely indian endeavour for now. Foreign collaboration could be done with tejas mk 1 or FUFA not with the amca.

How AMCA will be a downgrade?

 

[randomradio]

By that time the Chinese will have over 300 j-20's. The ideal time to buy su-57's is post 2025 after which it will be extremely impractical to buy it. By 2030 most sixth gens will come online in some form or the other. Su-57 is already a generation behind most 5th and 4.75 gen fighters in its class. Plus the amca will be ready by 2030 too.

Su-57 has been designed to be way more advanced than the J-20, particularly the engine.
Post 332:

PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions

19 March 2019, 06:10 There is no indication of the lifetime of the engine, otherwise it is quite impressive! I knew that it was a variable bypass engine or variable geometry engine. What's interesting is it will be the most advanced operational engine until the next American engine comes in...

www.strategicfront.org

Furthermore, the Russians are expected to finish state tests only in 2024, which could get delayed. They are expected to get their first Su-57M with the new engine only in 2025 and 2 regiments worth by 2028. So it will take until 2030 for production to be streamlined. And the roughly 10 years of service by then will give it a mature tag.

As for NGAD, J-XX etc, even if they are introduced in the 2030s, it will take a long time for these jets to mature. The same with FCAS, it won't be fully ready right off the bat, it will need a few years just to come up to spec and a few more years to actually become mature. Simply put, look at the introduction date of any jet, add 7-10 years to it, that's when it will interest the IAF. In any case, the NGAD and J-XX are unlikely to be anything vastly different from the Su-57. The Su-57M will be enough to match them.

AMCA needs time until 2040 to be viable. Basically, what Su-57 will be by 2028-30 in terms of maturity, with 2-3 regiments in service, AMCA will be by 2040.

 

[randomradio]

What project objectives of FCAS were more advanced than AMCA? Kindly provide some details

The AMCA Mk2 is basically an F-22++ airframe combined with F-35++ or Rafale F5 avionics and powered by possibly 5.5th gen engine. It's going to be at least half a generation behind FCAS in every which way. So you can say AMCA will be 5.5th gen while FCAS will be 6th gen.

Its introduction is in the F-35 Mk2 (2035) or Rafale F5 timeframe, hence a similar class of engines and avionics. It's not expected to be a world beater, it will just be a contemporary jet, basically better than older gen jets like the F-22, Rafale and F-35. When it's ready it's going to directly compete with the F-35 in the export market.

Any world beater we wanna make will have to come through the MKI replacement program.

 

[randomradio]

Heh.

This is like saying, "never is worse than late".

Who knows? Maybe it will work out. Just sayin'.

Anyway, the discussion was about India joining in lieu of Germany. Even with Germany out, the FCAS timeframe is not suitable for India.