Future Combat Air System (FCAS) - France/Germany
- Thread starter randomradio
- Start date
33T MTOW, 11T x 2 engine thrust. 14-15T class empty weight.
Essentially SH class with more payload.
Unlikely if common sense is applied.
By the time India enters a clean-sheet program, negotiates, and decides, ADA would have caught up with all the necessary technologies and the FGFA saga would repeat. The idea is to save time by joining an ongoing program. GCAP could become the main target.
Anyway, Dassault itself prefers to continue developing Rafale beyond F5 for now. It's got 2 more decades of growth left, so they can push their next gen program by a decade.
Yep, but it's unclear what we want.
I'm not sure about switching out the avionics though, if we are aiming for a risk-free induction. We could be aiming to implement an F-35I style system instead, alongside local production.
As if your project is moving smoothly, lol.
Franco-German Future Fighter Effort Collapses Over Irreconcilable Differences
Germany and France failed to come to terms on requirements, apparently bringing Europe’s flagship next gen fighter program to an end. Germany and France have failed to reconcile requirements, apparently bringing Europe’s flagship combat air program to an end.www.twz.com
So the FCAS program as we know it is no more.Franco-German Future Fighter Effort Collapses Over Irreconcilable Differences
Germany and France failed to come to terms on requirements, apparently bringing Europe’s flagship next gen fighter program to an end. Germany and France have failed to reconcile requirements, apparently bringing Europe’s flagship combat air program to an end.
After the fall of FCAS fighter, Germany eyes 'realistic' future projects with France - Breaking Defense
After years of squabbles over the development of the sixth-gen fighter jet, the centerpiece of the projected $115 billion effort, Berlin said the companies involved “cannot reach an agreement.”
I'm wondering if the selection of Safran as JV partner in our NG Engine program will have an effect on this. If we are to buy into a 6th gen program, will we choose the same country/consortium that will hold influence over AMCA Mk2 program or a different one, following the eggs & baskets approach?
Of course it'll depend on what the parties are prepared to offer vis a vis integration access & what not, but this is also an interesting dynamic that cannot be ignored.
You mean just having plug-and-play access to the existing system without changing its fundamentals. We could go for it, subject to France agreeing.
But istn't that the same kind of access that they already denied for Rafale?
It's funny to watch France shoot themselves in the foot and the fanboys on various forums, say it's a good thing
It is now a well known fact that the French like to do things their own way and aren't best team players. This is like how it is, for good or bad.
In all fairness, France's requirements were unique as the only CTOL carrier navy in the EU. They split from the EF2000 project in the 1980s for this reason.
Besides, the Germans don't really a new stealth jet anytime soon now that they've bought the F-35. So they can afford to wait.
For India, the only viable path to a 6G jet is through the iterative development of AMCA, imo.
My opinion is that we can fund our own true 6th gen (unlike pseudo 6th gen FCAS/GCAP) , our economy in 2045 will be more than UK+Japan+Italy combined
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My plan:
1) double down on AMCA mk2 and make sure to have a naval mk2 for navy( FCAS(now dead) with tails will not be better than AMCA mk2 with 120kn engine)
2) al51f1 still in its current form is far better than anything European have , we should work with Russians anddevelope 6th gen engine with 200kn wet thrust(al51f1 diameter size) with ip and know how, know why(like french jv), Russians will be happy to co-operate as they dont have funds too
3) develope own 40 tonn 6th gen fighter with large weapon bay so that it can be use for air to ground too and should be tail less
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My definition of 6th gen(which i wanna see in indian 6th gen) :
1) much much better frontal and rear rcs, hence no tail
2) IR stealth, hence flat nozzles and ability to increase bypass ratio in cruising so that less ir signature
3) Much better angled rcs and multi spectrum rcs reduction (belly and opp-belly rcs reduction) , hence much better emw absorbing materials
4) more usable weapon load(hence bigger weapon bay)
5) no need of tankers/awacs in most cases , hence large internal fuel capacity and multi band radars(x + s/l band radars ) and > 400km range for 1msq rcs(photonic and then later quantum radars)
6) hard kill method to shoot down incoming a2a missile (like anti a2a misisle or powerful lasers)
-------------------->
My plan:
1) double down on AMCA mk2 and make sure to have a naval mk2 for navy( FCAS(now dead) with tails will not be better than AMCA mk2 with 120kn engine)
2) al51f1 still in its current form is far better than anything European have , we should work with Russians anddevelope 6th gen engine with 200kn wet thrust(al51f1 diameter size) with ip and know how, know why(like french jv), Russians will be happy to co-operate as they dont have funds too
3) develope own 40 tonn 6th gen fighter with large weapon bay so that it can be use for air to ground too and should be tail less
--------------->
My definition of 6th gen(which i wanna see in indian 6th gen) :
1) much much better frontal and rear rcs, hence no tail
2) IR stealth, hence flat nozzles and ability to increase bypass ratio in cruising so that less ir signature
3) Much better angled rcs and multi spectrum rcs reduction (belly and opp-belly rcs reduction) , hence much better emw absorbing materials
4) more usable weapon load(hence bigger weapon bay)
5) no need of tankers/awacs in most cases , hence large internal fuel capacity and multi band radars(x + s/l band radars ) and > 400km range for 1msq rcs(photonic and then later quantum radars)
6) hard kill method to shoot down incoming a2a missile (like anti a2a misisle or powerful lasers)
The AMCA egg with 100% ToT and IPR will become an Indian egg, so it's not going to be a factor.
Rafale + SCAF allows the egg and basket theory to hold true. But indigenization of the remaining half of the IAF ensures it's weaker than it was with MKI around.
M2000I comes with 2 MCs, MDPU integrates core avionics and weapons systems and HAL MC integrates plug and play systems and acts as a translation device between French and Indian systems. The Rafale could become the same. The only thing extra on F-35I is it comes with some airframe modifications for Israeli antennas for comm and EW separate from the F-35's core avionics and comm, we don't need that on Rafale and M2000. Neither the Indians nor Israelis get access to core avionics.
It depends on the scale of the JV too. Rules will be different for equal partnership versus a junior partner. I'm thinking it will be the latter for the IAF.
Whether it's a JV or not, we will need 100% ToT for the airframe and engine, at least when combined with our own tech for denied tech. But if we replace the core avionics with Indian as well, then the business end of the JV will die due to lack of European workshare in the Indian version. That's why I think we will aim for 100% airframe and engine tech while using Europe's core avionics with some of our stuff jacked in from the side. This would also be the fastest.
SCAF's out and GCAP's workshare has already been decided. So a 5% junior partner or just an import partner is the best we can hope for if we join GCAP.
ADA screwed the pooch here. They are 5-10 years behind where they should have been right now.
After the fall of FCAS fighter, Germany eyes 'realistic' future projects with France - Breaking Defense
After years of squabbles over the development of the sixth-gen fighter jet, the centerpiece of the projected $115 billion effort, Berlin said the companies involved “cannot reach an agreement.”breakingdefense.com
Guess they plan to keep the combat cloud and engine pillars alive.
And history repeated itself once again, lol.
All major powers will need 6th gen around 2040s.
AMCA can't be turned into 6th gen. We need a clean sheet AHCA aka MKI replacent either through a JV or via full on dometic effort. We need our counter for J-36 & J-50 in around early to mid 2040s.
Having started work on PANG, the French absolutely need a carrier capable next gen jet. But ya they are touchy when it comes to tech sharing.
Currently, the Germans seem to be more interested in strike drones/remote carriers. NATO AFs will likely consolidate their combat cloud architectures/work out a interoperability framework at some point.
Besides the F-47 will be made available to NATO AFs, unlike Raptor. So the Germans have options.
It's probably nt a preference. As SCAF is halted, we have to rely on the sole Rafale, so Rafale international has to work on next steps.
But it's not new. I remember a "stolen" pic of the Rafale evolutions in the pipe shown to Indian top brass a couple of years ahead, in India : the way was paved to F7 standard. Rafale will still be flying in 2070.
Because the french have nothing to learn to the german in this field !
We are the sole in the whole Europe to be able to study from scratch a jet fighter, alone.
Maybe GB also. To be seen. But not Sweden, not Germany, not Italy....
Germans killed the Tiger helo MLU, killed the maritime air patrol jet, killed the anti tank european industry. What next ?After the fall of FCAS fighter, Germany eyes 'realistic' future projects with France - Breaking Defense
After years of squabbles over the development of the sixth-gen fighter jet, the centerpiece of the projected $115 billion effort, Berlin said the companies involved “cannot reach an agreement.”
IAF will be operating Rafales until the 2090s. So we will need upgrades between 2055 and 2065 for MRFA.
The Turks wouldn't be working with BAE Systems on KAAN if the latter didn't have airframe design expertise. Also German companies like Dornier had significant design talent developed via projects like MAKO AJT which sadly didn't see the light of day.
The Italians have the M346 AJT although it is based on a Yakovlev design.
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