Future Combat Vehicle Programs (FRCV and FICV)

South block said:
Look like Red effect is visiting this site quite often lately.

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What red effect is missing along with many Indian members here is......the reason why there is both Bustle & Carousel autoloader is because of safety reasons & less to do with carrying more Ammunition..... Having both has massive advantage & minor disadvantage as well.... Let me clarify.


Tanks like T-14 Armata with Carousel autoloader are still vulnerable since both propellant charge & Round are stored inside the tank. Which means in case of penetration.... turret of the tank will still go flying high due to catastrophic explosion & it's not guarantee that the 3 man crew in front will survive the massive explosion.
Furthermore the carousel autoloader limit the gun size as safety of crew decreases further, reason being if you increase the gun size you are also increasing the size of the Ammunition.... Bigger explosion in case of penetration.


Advantage of having both type can be a boon.......The Bustle Autoloader will carry the Propellant charge and the Carousel autoloader will carry the round..... So in case of penetration it will be turret which will face the brunt of explosion not the chassis itself..... This will also help increase size of main gun to higher caliber without worrying about crew safety.
 
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Speedster1 said:
The Russians are going with the proven T-90M, putting the Armata on the backburner. They probably need foreign funding to iron out its kinks and put it into series production.
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They have a massive defense budget, they do not need foreign funding. But it doesn't make sense to use up tank production for Armata during the war unless they have achieved overcapacity.

Speedster1 said:
The Army will give preference to a 'proven' tank over the relatively new Armata.
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Based on RFI:
The Indian ‘Strategic Partner’ will retain the ownership of the design and technologies for the platform to ensure realisation of ‘Atmanirbhar Bharat’.

And the RFI states the requirement for a "2/3 crew pod concept," indicating an armoured capsule with an autoloader. So only EMBT K3, and Armata fit the role for now; NGMBT as well.

-Medium weight class would mean the tank cannot weigh above 55T.
-Multiple weapons for anti-aircraft would mean the 20mm/30mm cannon option as secondary armament.
-Deep fording.
-See-through armor. So 360 deg camera view for crew.

No talk of DEW and hardkill APS, that may come up later during RFP. And IP transfer means, they cannot willy-nilly offer stuff they want to keep for themselves. Deep fording is quite questionable for some of these tanks.
 
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randomradio said:
They have a massive defense budget, they do not need foreign funding. But it doesn't make sense to use up tank production for Armata during the war unless they have achieved overcapacity.



Based on RFI:
The Indian ‘Strategic Partner’ will retain the ownership of the design and technologies for the platform to ensure realisation of ‘Atmanirbhar Bharat’.

And the RFI states the requirement for a "2/3 crew pod concept," indicating an armoured capsule with an autoloader. So only EMBT K3, and Armata fit the role for now; NGMBT as well.

-Medium weight class would mean the tank cannot weigh above 55T.
-Multiple weapons for anti-aircraft would mean the 20mm/30mm cannon option as secondary armament.
-Deep fording.
-See-through armor. So 360 deg camera view for crew.

No talk of DEW and hardkill APS, that may come up later during RFP. And IP transfer means, they cannot willy-nilly offer stuff they want to keep for themselves. Deep fording is quite questionable for some of these tanks.
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Why to even consider foreign tank when drdo is developing ngmbt according to our own requirements.

It will be produced under dcpp model, frankly we have done enough imports now no more reliance on foreign maal govt needs to make this thing clear to corrupt generals.
 
randomradio said:
Based on RFI:
The Indian ‘Strategic Partner’ will retain the ownership of the design and technologies for the platform to ensure realisation of ‘Atmanirbhar Bharat’.

And the RFI states the requirement for a "2/3 crew pod concept," indicating an armoured capsule with an autoloader. So only EMBT K3, and Armata fit the role for now; NGMBT as well.

-Medium weight class would mean the tank cannot weigh above 55T.
-Multiple weapons for anti-aircraft would mean the 20mm/30mm cannon option as secondary armament.
-Deep fording.
-See-through armor. So 360 deg camera view for crew.

No talk of DEW and hardkill APS, that may come up later during RFP. And IP transfer means, they cannot willy-nilly offer stuff they want to keep for themselves. Deep fording is quite questionable for some of these tanks.
Click to expand...

Considering that the IA reportedly asked the DRDO to replace the electric drive on the ATAGS with hydraulics to reduce weight, all of these high-tech features would be ransom to the weight factor imo.

To be fair, the armoured corps has not operated a Western tank since the Vijayanta and it could take another generation or two before it recovers from its 'mobility over firepower+protection' dogma. The trials stage of FRCV should be interesting.
 
Chain Smoker said:
Why to even consider foreign tank when drdo is developing ngmbt according to our own requirements.

It will be produced under dcpp model, frankly we have done enough imports now no more reliance on foreign maal govt needs to make this thing clear to corrupt generals.
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Three reasons: IA knows what's out there through a tender.

DRDO's products need to have comeptition, free ride is over. This prevents them from becoming complacent and deliver products on time.

Private partners need a level playing field in winning tenders so they can develop their own capabilities in the long term, so partnering with DRDO and FOEMs gives them that.

What you are suggesting is whatever DRDO makes, we should just hand it over to them. That's how it's been since DRDO was created, and that's what led to all these imports. The issue is DRDO is rarely on the same page as the forces. Both LCA and ATAGS are prime examples. Both programs saw DRDO making things according to their own specifications without input from forces. That's why both LCA and ATAGS have become heavier than necessary. Only one foreign competition was brought in that they started making somewhat good products on time.

Otoh, the IN created their own design bureau, and DRDO created subsystems according to IN specifications. Whenever DRDO created something that the IN didn't want was rejected. HAL also tried to push Dhruv on them, they rejected it.

So, if NGMBT has to win, then it has to beat foreign designs, and in turn the foreign designs will become Indian via IP transfer. Take Kalyani's Bharat 52, it's a foreign gun, but Kalyani bought the company so now it's an Indian gun, no different from Jaguar Land Rover. We are doing the same thing in a much larger scale.
 
Speedster1 said:
Considering that the IA reportedly asked the DRDO to replace the electric drive on the ATAGS with hydraulics to reduce weight, all of these high-tech features would be ransom to the weight factor imo.

To be fair, the armoured corps has not operated a Western tank since the Vijayanta and it could take another generation or two before it recovers from its 'mobility over firepower+protection' dogma. The trials stage of FRCV should be interesting.
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IA has enough experience to manage any tank design. The tank doctrine itself hasn't changed much.
 
randomradio said:
Three reasons: IA knows what's out there through a tender.

DRDO's products need to have comeptition, free ride is over. This prevents them from becoming complacent and deliver products on time.

Private partners need a level playing field in winning tenders so they can develop their own capabilities in the long term, so partnering with DRDO and FOEMs gives them that.

What you are suggesting is whatever DRDO makes, we should just hand it over to them. That's how it's been since DRDO was created, and that's what led to all these imports. The issue is DRDO is rarely on the same page as the forces. Both LCA and ATAGS are prime examples. Both programs saw DRDO making things according to their own specifications without input from forces. That's why both LCA and ATAGS have become heavier than necessary. Only one foreign competition was brought in that they started making somewhat good products on time.

Otoh, the IN created their own design bureau, and DRDO created subsystems according to IN specifications. Whenever DRDO created something that the IN didn't want was rejected. HAL also tried to push Dhruv on them, they rejected it.

So, if NGMBT has to win, then it has to beat foreign designs, and in turn the foreign designs will become Indian via IP transfer. Take Kalyani's Bharat 52, it's a foreign gun, but Kalyani bought the company so now it's an Indian gun, no different from Jaguar Land Rover. We are doing the same thing in a much larger scale.
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You are wrong here army has created it's own design bureau to address these issues & they were involved in issuing clearance to ngmbt specs & design.
 
randomradio said:
IA has enough experience to manage any tank design. The tank doctrine itself hasn't changed much.
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Frankly, doctrines change based on the equipment you buy. Now that the Ukraine conflict has laid bare the performance of legacy Russian and Western armour (near peer rivals, I might add), I'd be glad if we transition to a new concept of operations built around IDDM tanks- Indian solution for Indian needs.
 
Speedster1 said:
Frankly, doctrines change based on the equipment you buy. Now that the Ukraine conflict has laid bare the performance of legacy Russian and Western armour (near peer rivals, I might add), I'd be glad if we transition to a new concept of operations built around IDDM tanks- Indian solution for Indian needs.
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Yep. That's the idea. The IA is going whole hog after very advanced capabilities.
 
South block said:
Lightly armed APC & IFV are getting Obliterated in Russia-Ukraine conflict in tens of Thousands but vishwaguru army k
Kaan par Joo tak nhi Rengti 🤡


TATA WhAP.......bad utilization of space & sitting arrangements & overall a bad design for moder APC.....when in rest of the world APC soldiers sit facing each other vishwaguru soldiers sit facing the side from where they will receive a direct enemy shot to their faces from many of the side port holes 🤡

View attachment 35444
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Ha ha ha!..... TATA Whap Export version have soldiers facing each other. Told you all that Indian version was a bad design, they changed it later. facing seats allows more space + better protection compared to previous iteration.

GbSMDZdbcAAuNjU.jpeg
 
South block said:
Ha ha ha!..... TATA Whap Export version have soldiers facing each other. Told you all that Indian version was a bad design, they changed it later. facing seats allows more space + better protection compared to previous iteration.

View attachment 37675
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When you want to carry some extra equipment like mortars or some killer drone with a rail, you can carry it easily. I think it's a better utilization of space to keep the center space free.
 
South block said:
They ( interested in this tank failure) will call it a P@jeet tank 😡
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Parthu said:
Yeah. Terrible name for a tank but hard to expect anything better from unkul jis.
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Political reasons perhaps. Ranjit Singh and the Sikh Empire. Zorawar and the Dogra Rajputs, appointed under Gulab Singh in Jammu by Ranjit Singh. Zorawar also pushed India's border into Western Tibet, not to mention Skardu and Baltistan.

Imagine Khalistanis having to fight against weapons named after their greatest heroes alongside the real enemies of their heroes. What a fun story for the young Khalistani recruits. "We will destroy both Ranjeet and Zorawar!!! Who is with us?!!"

And being called "Pajeet" is a good thing, done a lot of good uniting Indians against racism. It worked so well for Indians overall that Congress' own influencers had to act against it. It's like how "What's wrong with India?" backfired. 'Cause serious people and people in power don't take such things seriously. And all you need is a thicker skin to deal with immature attacks.
 
randomradio said:
In some ways, Arjun is better, like mobility, ride comfort and accuracy, but in most of the relevant ways T-90 is better, like cost, maintenance, logistics, firepower, armor, supply chain, maturity, indigenization levels, customization, weapons options, international suppliers, ammo availability etc. Plus the T-90 was available with all these advantages 10 years before Arjun. And the T-90s we are currently building improve on the older T-90s quite significantly.
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It's not like we're getting newer versions like T-90M/MS. So there's no comparison between the two in terms of armour, firepower as has been amply proven during comparative trials some time back. Russia reportedly diverted some T-90S meant for India to Ukraine and we've all seen what happened to those.

As for maintenance, and logistics, this tank has been in service in numbers for nearly 25 years. Painstaking effort has gone into customization- including indigenous AC units, tank barrels, even armour panels - all tech spin-offs from Arjun. The Russians refused to part with ToT for key items. We didn't even buy Shtora APS to keep costs down.

Imo, there's nothing the T-90S has today (including the so-called Mk3 version shown recently) that an upgraded T-72 MKI wouldn't have brought to the table.
 
Speedster1 said:
It's not like we're getting newer versions like T-90M/MS. So there's no comparison between the two in terms of armour, firepower as has been amply proven during comparative trials some time back. Russia reportedly diverted some T-90S meant for India to Ukraine and we've all seen what happened to those.

As for maintenance, and logistics, this tank has been in service in numbers for nearly 25 years. Painstaking effort has gone into customization- including indigenous AC units, tank barrels, even armour panels - all tech spin-offs from Arjun. The Russians refused to part with ToT for key items. We didn't even buy Shtora APS to keep costs down.

Imo, there's nothing the T-90S has today (including the so-called Mk3 version shown recently) that an upgraded T-72 MKI wouldn't have brought to the table.
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We decided to skip on T-90MS, instead chose a more modest upgrade.

T-72 can be upgraded T-90 standards in some ways, but the turret will have to be replaced, including autoloader, armor, gun, and barrel. Not worth the dough, that's why we decided to skip on T-90MS too.
 
randomradio said:
T-72 can be upgraded T-90 standards in some ways, but the turret will have to be replaced, including autoloader, armor, gun, and barrel. Not worth the dough, that's why we decided to skip on T-90MS too.
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A common turret built around the T-90s 2A46 gun, DRDO sights + FCS and the already fully-indigenized V-92S2 engine can be used to standardize both fleets, simplify logistics and perhaps even obviate the need for FRCV (with add-on modular armour packages) until FMBT is ready. T-90 Mk3 is more of obsolescence-management than an upgrade, imo.
 
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