GTRE Kaveri Engine

vstol Jockey said:
I read a statement recently that GTRE has asked Safran to concentrate on K8 to make it K9 and as second stage go for K10. So K10 will be the engine for Mk1A & 2.
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K8 has now become K9, both are one and the same. I think it's because they moved up the thrust of that engine from 75KN (K8) to 81KN (K9).

GTRE also said they need 10 years to develop K10. And they have requested 500Cr for its development.

If the Kaveri has to go on the Mk1A, then the only option is the K9. And the engine has to begin flight testing in 2019 and fully certified by 2020, which means the engine should be ready for integration into the LCA by early 2019. Quite a tall task, I hope they achieve that.

If the K9 achieves even 85KN, then we can replace the F404 with it. Once done, we can take our time to upgrade it with newer hot sections, which we can't with the F404.
 
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pachawry said:
Can you tell me what is the use of 125kN engine? India already makes Al31F from raw materials. Why make another 125kN engine? AMCA is 25ton and does not need 2x125kN engines
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AF31F is not up to date. It is heavy as actual standard.
A new designed 125Kn will weight in the 1300kg. 300 to 500kg less (depend of the source) than the previous one. And probably less greedy also.
 
randomradio said:
K8 has now become K9, both are one and the same. I think it's because they moved up the thrust of that engine from 75KN (K8) to 81KN (K9).

GTRE also said they need 10 years to develop K10. And they have requested 500Cr for its development.

If the Kaveri has to go on the Mk1A, then the only option is the K9. And the engine has to begin flight testing in 2019 and fully certified by 2020, which means the engine should be ready for integration into the LCA by early 2019. Quite a tall task, I hope they achieve that.

If the K9 achieves even 85KN, then we can replace the F404 with it. Once done, we can take our time to upgrade it with newer hot sections, which we can't with the F404.
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He said second engine of Mk1A is going to be K10, in his previous reply to me.
 
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pachawry said:
AMCA having 2x125kN engine for 25 ton weight class will make it too overpowered and capable of travelling in 3Mach speed! I don't agree that 125kN one will be used in AMCA.

Safran is just auditing and not making any engine. I don't understand why you keep changing your words. You yourself agreed that safran is auditing and not making engines for India but now you say another thing.
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He said in k9 conversion only auditing ..
In K10 second stage, more involvement ..
Ganga engine with UK 125 KN if made Flat ratin, wet thrust will come down I guess.
 
pachawry said:
AMCA having 2x125kN engine for 25 ton weight class will make it too overpowered and capable of travelling in 3Mach speed! I don't agree that 125kN one will be used in AMCA.

Safran is just auditing and not making any engine. I don't understand why you keep changing your words. You yourself agreed that safran is auditing and not making engines for India but now you say another thing.
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I have not changed my words even once. I have very clearly stated that Safran help will come for K10 only. The present K8 engine will be fine tuned to K9 standard by Indians themselves. Just the way they sorted out K8 engine on their own without help from Safran.
 
Sathya said:
He said second engine of Mk1A is going to be K10, in his previous reply to me.
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Every aircraft uses up 2-3 engines in its lifetime so when the present F404 engines come up for replacement, the replacement second engine might be K10. One engine means about 2000hrs of life. This means about 10-12 yrs of flying for an aircraft.
 
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vstol Jockey said:
I have not changed my words even once. I have very clearly stated that Safran help will come for K10 only. The present K8 engine will be fine tuned to K9 standard by Indians themselves. Just the way they sorted out K8 engine on their own without help from Safran.
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The 40 cm lengthening of exhaust , hat will be its implications .?

Increased weight ? Moving the Centre of gravity ?

More space or anything other advantages ?
 
Sathya said:
The 40 cm lengthening of exhaust , hat will be its implications .?

Increased weight ? Moving the Centre of gravity ?

More space or anything other advantages ?
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40cm increase will not shift CG much. A jet engine has its mass concentrated in the front section where we have fan, accessory gear box, HP compressor, combustion chamber and HP+LP turbines. Normally the main engine length is for a 4m engine will be 1.8-1.9m and the rest will be the afterburner section and exhaust nozzle. So the CG of a military jet engine generally falls at about 40% of its length. For an engine with TVC nozzle it may be 45% of the length as the TVC is a large mass and being at the rear end has a longer moment arm.
It is very difficult to stick to the parameters as written in original specs. some variation does happen. This increase in length will not increase the weight substantially but will improve the thrust and provide better gas flow stability.
 
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Bon Plan said:
AF31F is not up to date. It is heavy as actual standard.
A new designed 125Kn will weight in the 1300kg. 300 to 500kg less (depend of the source) than the previous one. And probably less greedy also.
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Yes, but that change may require airframe to be changed and I am not sure if Russia will allow that. Moreover, it is an unnecessary complication as India is moving to Tejas Mk2 and AMCA for all practical requirements. Su30 will remain as a heavy weight plane for heavy bombing but riority will be for Tejas and AMCA
vstol Jockey said:
I have not changed my words even once. I have very clearly stated that Safran help will come for K10 only. The present K8 engine will be fine tuned to K9 standard by Indians themselves. Just the way they sorted out K8 engine on their own without help from Safran.
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The K10 engine is likely to be overpowered for Tejas MK1A and affect fuel consumption and range
 
pachawry said:
Yes, but that change may require airframe to be changed and I am not sure if Russia will allow that. Moreover, it is an unnecessary complication as India is moving to Tejas Mk2 and AMCA for all practical requirements. Su30 will remain as a heavy weight plane for heavy bombing but riority will be for Tejas and AMCA

The K10 engine is likely to be overpowered for Tejas MK1A and affect fuel consumption and range
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The present engine is under powered for tejas. K10 will be best. Please keep in mind the hot and high conditions typical to India.
 
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xoPDrEG.png


I was reading the HAL 2016-17 annual report and this is an excerpt from that report regarding the progress of HTFE 25 engine. According to that

"Preliminary Design Review(PDR) of Engine has been completed during 2014-15. Based on core engine-1 test results the compressor efficiency was found on lower side. Hence compressor redesign was initiated. Compressor redesign completed in Apr 2017. Detailed design and drawing release will be completed by May 2017. Core engine-2 run is planned in Jan 2018 and the full engine run is planned in Jul 2018.

Can anyone plz put some light on whether they have tested the engine with the redesigned compressor or not.
 
Proud_Indian said:
xoPDrEG.png


I was reading the HAL 2016-17 annual report and this is an excerpt from that report regarding the progress of HTFE 25 engine. According to that

"Preliminary Design Review(PDR) of Engine has been completed during 2014-15. Based on core engine-1 test results the compressor efficiency was found on lower side. Hence compressor redesign was initiated. Compressor redesign completed in Apr 2017. Detailed design and drawing release will be completed by May 2017. Core engine-2 run is planned in Jan 2018 and the full engine run is planned in Jul 2018.

Can anyone plz put some light on whether they have tested the engine with the redesigned compressor or not.
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Compressor efficiency is about bypass and pressure ratios. The compressor might be meeting the criteria in terms of airflow but it may be falling short of compression ratios and temp rise. Normally these problems arise with low pressure compressors while designing an engine. The net result is that the HP compressor also fails to deliver the discharge pressure ratios and temp rise which effects the overall thrust of the engine. So even if the core is fit for a certain level of temp rise, those values are not reached as the temp rise and fuel-air mixture required in the combustion chamber are not met.
This will need a redesign of compressor as the hot section comprising the combustion chamber and HP turbine have already been certified for a particular thrust level. So you need to redesign the fan or the LP compressor to be able to meet compressor discharge values for combustion chamber. This is in layman's terms. the real explanation is a bit complicated.
 
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vstol Jockey said:
Every aircraft uses up 2-3 engines in its lifetime so when the present F404 engines come up for replacement, the replacement second engine might be K10. One engine means about 2000hrs of life. This means about 10-12 yrs of flying for an aircraft.
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This life duration and maintaining issues was one of the main area Safran looked at for Kaveri. (off info)
 
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