GTRE Kaveri Engine

[Bon Plan]

What does a M88 core Kaveri engine add to the know-how and know-why of Indian industry and research institutions when the technologies india really lag are said to be metallurgy, specifically higher Turbine Entry Temp and hence Single crystal blade? Agreed, a M88 cored Kaveri may be realised, but I wonder how much does it add to indian efforts in those directions given no company or designer will part with their crown jewels say 2000deg TET SCB turbine? And what about further iterations or new develpments in indian gas turbine industry, if at all one comes into existence? Will that then be forever dependent on ToT from, say France for example?

Mastering the cold part of an engine is a first step.
What do you prefer? A 100% indian engine that don't work, or a 50/50 engine with Safran tech that runs ?
Take your time to create your own technological and R&D environment so as to developp that famous hot core. It is one of the harder technological sub assembly to developp in the world so far.... It takes dozen and dozen years...

 

[vingensys]

Mastering the cold part of an engine is a first step.
What do you prefer? A 100% indian engine that don't work, or a 50/50 engine with Safran tech that runs ?
Take your time to create your own technological and R&D environment so as to developp that famous hot core. It is one of the harder technological sub assembly to developp in the world so far.... It takes dozen and dozen years...

Being a novice here, I really have limited knowledge about Kaveri engine, but with due respects and defering to your wisdom Sir, may I venture to ask

a) Does this imply that we don't have a fairly working cold section for Kaveri, that it need to be mastered yet? I did read about LPC blade flutter, but I read, it was solved.

b) What would be the difference between a local manufacture of say AL 31 from scratch, and integrating a cold section from GTRE manufactred in India and a 'black box' of hot section from safran, where still I believe and read, that our crtitcal deficiencies are, none of which will be reasonably solved via this route. I agree completely when sir, you argue for a 50:50 engine , that at the least is usable and running; i doubt whether this exercise is identical to the licensed prod of engine adding nothing much when it comes to creating our R&D ecosystem

c) At any given day I would prefer, not that my preference carry any value whatsoever, any incremental value addition , especially in terms of design to the gas turbine engine, be it even in auxiliaries to start with, haven't the kaveri engine with kabini core achieved within 10% of the requisite thrust levels (AI 2017 around)? If it is true, aren't we solving the wrong question by replacing Kabini with M88 core and creating the additional burden of integrating the M88 hot section and Kaveri Cold section? but let me add, what does M88 brings to the afterburner in Kaveri, and hence on rectification of wet thrust, i have no idea.. so all my asumptions might be wrong.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Turbine entry temperature:
AL-31F: 1,685 K
Kaveri: 1,700 K
AL-41F-1S (117S): 1,745 K
M88 : 1,850 K
And my approach is a co-development for 2,000 K as first step and 2,100 K as second step. Technologically it will be up to date!

 

[randomradio]

Turbine entry temperature:
AL-31F: 1,685 K
Kaveri: 1,700 K
AL-41F-1S (117S): 1,745 K
M88 : 1,850 K
And my approach is a co-development for 2,000 K as first step and 2,100 K as second step. Technologically it will be up to date!

Shouldn't we go higher with the second step?

Perhaps AMCA Mk2 and FCAS can use the same engine. And in exchange the IAF can enter the FCAS program in some way.

 

[Gautam]

a) Does this imply that we don't have a fairly working cold section for Kaveri, that it need to be mastered yet? I did read about LPC blade flutter, but I read, it was solved.

Blade flutter has been solved. Cold section of the Kaveri works just fine. The only problems in the cold section are : Less than aimed for compression ratio and excess weight. GTRE is already working on a solution for that by redesigning the fan. Check post #337 and #338 on page no. 17 of this thread.

b) What would be the difference between a local manufacture of say AL 31 from scratch, and integrating a cold section from GTRE manufactred in India and a 'black box' of hot section from safran, where still I believe and read, that our crtitcal deficiencies are, none of which will be reasonably solved via this route. I agree completely when sir, you argue for a 50:50 engine , that at the least is usable and running; i doubt whether this exercise is identical to the licensed prod of engine adding nothing much when it comes to creating our R&D ecosystem

Having a functional flying engine provides us with crucial experience that can be used to better the engine in every iteration. Otherwise you are left with a fancy garage queen that does nothing. I mean look at out turboshaft engine(helo engine) development. We are making a 1,200 KW engine in our first try and we will most likely succed because of the experience gathered by using/making the Shakti engine for the HAL Dhruv helo.

c) At any given day I would prefer, not that my preference carry any value whatsoever, any incremental value addition , especially in terms of design to the gas turbine engine, be it even in auxiliaries to start with, haven't the kaveri engine with kabini core achieved within 10% of the requisite thrust levels (AI 2017 around)? If it is true, aren't we solving the wrong question by replacing Kabini with M88 core and creating the additional burden of integrating the M88 hot section and Kaveri Cold section? but let me add, what does M88 brings to the afterburner in Kaveri, and hence on rectification of wet thrust, i have no idea.. so all my asumptions might be wrong.

The problem is even if Kaveri hits the required thrust rates, it still wouldn't be enough. You see, those requirements were drawn keeping Tejas in mind in 1980s. Nowadays fighters demand more from their engines. Thus to be successful, Kaveri has to not only meet and succeed the required thrust it also has to reduce the weight. This is where the French can help.

 

[halloweene]

What does a M88 core Kaveri engine add to the know-how and know-why of Indian industry and research institutions when the technologies india really lag are said to be metallurgy, specifically higher Turbine Entry Temp and hence Single crystal blade? Agreed, a M88 cored Kaveri may be realised, but I wonder how much does it add to indian efforts in those directions given no company or designer will part with their crown jewels say 2000deg TET SCB turbine? And what about further iterations or new develpments in indian gas turbine industry, if at all one comes into existence? Will that then be forever dependent on ToT from, say France for example?

hence the high cost : the show how (diff than know how)

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Shouldn't we go higher with the second step?

Perhaps AMCA Mk2 and FCAS can use the same engine. And in exchange the IAF can enter the FCAS program in some way.

But until now you wanted AMCA to be Indian only

 

[randomradio]

But until now you wanted AMCA to be Indian only

I was referring to electronics, particularly the core electronics, and of course the airframe. Not the engine. The engine was always supposed to come with outside help, we can't make a 5th gen engine in just 5 years.

If we go with a French designed engine as Step 1 for AMCA, then it only makes sense to continue the same with AMCA Mk2 also.

 

[Gautam]

Indian Air Force Jet LCA Tejas May Soon Get Made In India Engine Kaveri As GTRE Revives Program With Snecma

by Swarajya Staff - Jun 21 2019, 2:06 pm

File photo : LCA Tejas

Various jets and helicopters part of Indian Air Force’s arsenal and especially the LCA Tejas may soon get Made In India Aero Gas Turbine Engines as GTRE scientists have revived the program with the help of French aircraft engine manufacturer Snecma, IANS has reported.

This comes at a time when various scientists and defence experts have urged indigenisation in this regard for self reliance in defence engine manufacturing.

During a defence event in Bengaluru on Thursday (21 June), aerospace scientists and defence experts stressed on the need for the government and the industry to jointly design and manufacture aero gas turbine engines for both military and civilian aircraft.

An effort to this regard was pioneered by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) under DRDO’s guidance to develop an aero gas turbine engine for the Light Combat Aircraft Tejas.

The engine named Kaveri, which was subsequently developed, was tested in both ground and air but could not be inducted due to low thrust and high weight. Thus, the LCA Tejas aircraft are now fitted with US made General Electric engines.

There’s now a renewed hope for this Indian program as the GTRE scientists hope that after having tied up with French aircraft engine manufacturer Snecma for the completion of the Kaveri project, the latter as part of Rafale offset deal would help in its induction for LCA Tejas and other Indian made aircraft.

The government has already spent over Rs 2,000 crore as part of this project.


Indian Air Force Jet LCA Tejas May Soon Get Made In India Engine Kaveri As GTRE Revives Program With Snecma

 

[_Anonymous_]

Indian Air Force Jet LCA Tejas May Soon Get Made In India Engine Kaveri As GTRE Revives Program With Snecma

by Swarajya Staff - Jun 21 2019, 2:06 pm

File photo : LCA Tejas

Various jets and helicopters part of Indian Air Force’s arsenal and especially the LCA Tejas may soon get Made In India Aero Gas Turbine Engines as GTRE scientists have revived the program with the help of French aircraft engine manufacturer Snecma, IANS has reported.

This comes at a time when various scientists and defence experts have urged indigenisation in this regard for self reliance in defence engine manufacturing.

During a defence event in Bengaluru on Thursday (21 June), aerospace scientists and defence experts stressed on the need for the government and the industry to jointly design and manufacture aero gas turbine engines for both military and civilian aircraft.

An effort to this regard was pioneered by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) under DRDO’s guidance to develop an aero gas turbine engine for the Light Combat Aircraft Tejas.

The engine named Kaveri, which was subsequently developed, was tested in both ground and air but could not be inducted due to low thrust and high weight. Thus, the LCA Tejas aircraft are now fitted with US made General Electric engines.

There’s now a renewed hope for this Indian program as the GTRE scientists hope that after having tied up with French aircraft engine manufacturer Snecma for the completion of the Kaveri project, the latter as part of Rafale offset deal would help in its induction for LCA Tejas and other Indian made aircraft.

The government has already spent over Rs 2,000 crore as part of this project.


Indian Air Force Jet LCA Tejas May Soon Get Made In India Engine Kaveri As GTRE Revives Program With Snecma

Wonder wtf is happening? A few months ago we received info thru the press, that there was nothing more which could be done to salvage the K-9 as there were deep structural issues with it. Hence, the program was suspended indefinitely. Now we have this piece of news.

Any additional cheering info gentlemen? @randomradio ; @vstol Jockey

 

[_Anonymous_]

Wonder wtf is happening? A few months ago we received info thru the press, that there was nothing more which could be done to salvage the K-9 as there were deep structural issues with it. Hence, the program was suspended indefinitely. Now we have this piece of news.

Any additional cheering info gentlemen? @randomradio ; @vstol Jockey

Any additional info, Sir? @Picdelamirand-oil ; @halloweene

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Any additional info, Sir? @Picdelamirand-oil ; @halloweene

Everything is ready to "fix" the Kaveri at Safran, but it's blocked in India.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Everything is ready to "fix" the Kaveri at Safran, but it's blocked in India.

And what are the reasons for it as per your sources?

 

[randomradio]

Wonder wtf is happening? A few months ago we received info thru the press, that there was nothing more which could be done to salvage the K-9 as there were deep structural issues with it. Hence, the program was suspended indefinitely. Now we have this piece of news.

Any additional cheering info gentlemen? @randomradio ; @vstol Jockey

K9 development is progressing, it's not been shelved or anything of the sort. It's gonna be used on IUSAV.

As for LCA, it's very premature to say if Kaveri will go on it. Same for MWF and even AMCA.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

And what are the reasons for it as per your sources?

I can only give my opinion:
I think that in India there is no idea of the cost of engine development, and foreigners' proposals always seem too expensive. Even if it is offset, the French must want it to be counted significantly in terms of the obligations fulfilled, and the Indians never agree.

 

[vstol Jockey]

Everything is ready to "fix" the Kaveri at Safran, but it's blocked in India.

Kaveri has to be made operational before first Rafale lands in India. It is part of Offset deal. The further orders for Rafale are dependent on how France complies with present offset regulations.

 

[vstol Jockey]

I can only give my opinion:
I think that in India there is no idea of the cost of engine development, and foreigners' proposals always seem too expensive. Even if it is offset, the French must want it to be counted significantly in terms of the obligations fulfilled, and the Indians never agree.

You gave a figure for making it fit as part of offset and that amount of sum has been adjusted against the offset requirements. Now France has no reason to go back considering that it was an election issue in India and the Indian opposition will thrash the present government on this issue.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Kaveri has to be made operational before first Rafale lands in India. It is part of Offset deal. The further orders for Rafale are dependent on how France complies with present offset regulations.

I will inform Dassault that the first Rafale will first have the task of destroying the Indian Babus.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

You gave a figure for making it fit as part of offset and that amount of sum has been adjusted against the offset requirements. Now France has no reason to go back considering that it was an election issue in India and the Indian opposition will thrash the present government on this issue.

We haven't changed anything, and yet it's stuck in India.

 

[vstol Jockey]

I will inform Dassault that the first Rafale will first have the task of destroying the Indian Babus.

Yes. But trust me, things are going to move now. Indian Babus go slow during election time as they do not know who will be their new master. Now that issue is settled and many babus have been sent home and their services terminated, you will see much faster movement on all such issues.