IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi

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Indian Air Force wants fighter jet deal worth Rs 1.25L cr to be fast-tracked
"The IAF wants the acquisition procedure for acquiring the new aircraft to be completed in the shortest possible time and that will be possible only if they are allowed to go for a government-to-government deal with a foreign country.

Even a G2G deal would take four years for the first plane to be delivered, and this would be the only way to end the vicious circle of delays," government sources told Mail Today.

"If the government decides to buy planes through a tender route, it would take a minimum of eight to nine years as at least five years would be required to select a vendor, and then another three would be required for the delivery," they said.
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So the IAF is finally pushing for a GTG. I hope they pick Rafale.

In the article--
On the reasons for not backing the single-engine aircraft programme where 114 planes were to be manufactured indigenously in partnership with either USA or Sweden, sources said there were allegations of favouritism and wrongdoings even before the deal was initiated.

This open favouritism that IAF showed towards Gripen is at fault. It would have definitely ended as a single vendor situation.

@A Person @Picdelamirand-oil @Bon Plan
"Even a G2G deal would take four years for the first plane to be delivered"
This is the amount of time I mentioned earlier for any potential F-35 delivery if negotiations begin. The same would apply to both Gripen and Rafale.
 
randomradio said:
Indian Air Force wants fighter jet deal worth Rs 1.25L cr to be fast-tracked
"The IAF wants the acquisition procedure for acquiring the new aircraft to be completed in the shortest possible time and that will be possible only if they are allowed to go for a government-to-government deal with a foreign country.

Even a G2G deal would take four years for the first plane to be delivered, and this would be the only way to end the vicious circle of delays," government sources told Mail Today.

"If the government decides to buy planes through a tender route, it would take a minimum of eight to nine years as at least five years would be required to select a vendor, and then another three would be required for the delivery," they said.
=====

So the IAF is finally pushing for a GTG. I hope they pick Rafale.

In the article--
On the reasons for not backing the single-engine aircraft programme where 114 planes were to be manufactured indigenously in partnership with either USA or Sweden, sources said there were allegations of favouritism and wrongdoings even before the deal was initiated.

This open favouritism that IAF showed towards Gripen is at fault. It would have definitely ended as a single vendor situation.

@A Person @Picdelamirand-oil @Bon Plan
"Even a G2G deal would take four years for the first plane to be delivered"
This is the amount of time I mentioned earlier for any potential F-35 delivery if negotiations begin. The same would apply to both Gripen and Rafale.
Click to expand...
Four years? 3 years for the production of the first plane... so one year in Indian time and 3 years in normal time.... That's 11 years!!!
 
randomradio said:
Indian Air Force wants fighter jet deal worth Rs 1.25L cr to be fast-tracked
"The IAF wants the acquisition procedure for acquiring the new aircraft to be completed in the shortest possible time and that will be possible only if they are allowed to go for a government-to-government deal with a foreign country.

Even a G2G deal would take four years for the first plane to be delivered, and this would be the only way to end the vicious circle of delays," government sources told Mail Today.

"If the government decides to buy planes through a tender route, it would take a minimum of eight to nine years as at least five years would be required to select a vendor, and then another three would be required for the delivery," they said.
=====

So the IAF is finally pushing for a GTG. I hope they pick Rafale.

In the article--
On the reasons for not backing the single-engine aircraft programme where 114 planes were to be manufactured indigenously in partnership with either USA or Sweden, sources said there were allegations of favouritism and wrongdoings even before the deal was initiated.

This open favouritism that IAF showed towards Gripen is at fault. It would have definitely ended as a single vendor situation.

@A Person @Picdelamirand-oil @Bon Plan
"Even a G2G deal would take four years for the first plane to be delivered"
This is the amount of time I mentioned earlier for any potential F-35 delivery if negotiations begin. The same would apply to both Gripen and Rafale.
Click to expand...
IAF wants IN to opt for Rafale-M as that will help them increase the number of rafales due to reduction in cost of the overall program. The India specific changes are a one time cost and common weapons too can help mitigate the cost including maintenance cost. However I have put it down in writing that what use will be an aircraft which can't operate from 4/4 lift of present carriers. So that makes F-18SH as the only choice for navy. But SH needs more powerful engines and Boeing is willing to guarantee the same maintenance and operating cost as rafale to clinch this deal. the real size of IN is 150 aircraft. 57 is just a start. IAF is scared that if IN goes for F-18SH, they wont get additional rafales and GOI may just arder another batch of 18-36 fighters and cap the Rafale program.

If you remember, After my presentation to IN last month, I had told you that writing off F-18 SH at this stage is too early.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil said:
Four years? 3 years for the production of the first plane... so one year in Indian time and 3 years in normal time.... That's 11 years!!!
Click to expand...

Rafale GTG took exactly 4.5 years. Negotiations began in May 2015, signature in Sept 2016, first delivery in Nov 2019. And it's 4.5 years because France needs 3 years for delivery. All the work necessary from the Indian side was complete in 16 months, which included the long wait for the monsoon season, which added 6 months.

Since the price discovery is already over, a Rafale GTG for 100+ aircraft from DRAL will take a much shorter time. It will actually depend on how quickly DRAL signs production deals with all the subcontractors.

If negotiations to delivery takes 11 years, with only 3 years for negotiations. Then it will be Dassault's fault for taking 8 years to deliver the first jet. :p
 
randomradio said:
If negotiations to delivery takes 11 years, with only 3 years for negotiations. Then it will be Dassault's fault for taking 8 years to deliver the first jet. :p
Click to expand...
No indian time is 8X normal time. Dassault will take 3 years to deliver.
It takes 16 months to sign after the choice for Rafale was done... for the moment this choice is not done.
 
vstol Jockey said:
IAF wants IN to opt for Rafale-M as that will help them increase the number of rafales due to reduction in cost of the overall program. The India specific changes are a one time cost and common weapons too can help mitigate the cost including maintenance cost. However I have put it down in writing that what use will be an aircraft which can't operate from 4/4 lift of present carriers. So that makes F-18SH as the only choice for navy. But SH needs more powerful engines and Boeing is willing to guarantee the same maintenance and operating cost as rafale to clinch this deal. the real size of IN is 150 aircraft. 57 is just a start. IAF is scared that if IN goes for F-18SH, they wont get additional rafales and GOI may just arder another batch of 18-36 fighters and cap the Rafale program.

If you remember, After my presentation to IN last month, I had told you that writing off F-18 SH at this stage is too early.
Click to expand...

I agree about SH's better chances for the navy compared to Rafale. I blame the IN for the problem with the elevator dimensions. The exchange rate also favours the USD.

This commonality argument is just a canard, the real objective is to take away the IN's fighter funding. If you recall, the IN successfully argued that they can't operate LUH, Mi-26 and Ka-226, that they need their own helicopter tenders for their specific maritime environment through navy-controlled tenders. So I don't believe the GoI will force the IAF to buy whatever IN buys based on the same argument. There is room for both the IN and IAF to have their own separate MII tenders.
 
Picdelamirand-oil said:
No indian time is 8X normal time. Dassault will take 3 years to deliver.
It takes 16 months to sign after the choice for Rafale was done... for the moment this choice is not done.
Click to expand...

If the IAF is aiming for a fasttrack GTG, then they have already made a choice. The most obvious one according to me is Rafale, with Gripen in distance second.
 
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randomradio said:
But I hope the GTG caters for both F3R as well as F4.

It shouldn't be the case where the IAF in their haste end up buying hundreds of F3R because the F4 wasn't available during contract negotiations. This is bad for India and obviously Dassault also.
Click to expand...
I do not worry, it will take at least a year to sign the contract, after that it will take 4 years to produce: a year to build the plant, or evolve that of DRAL and 3 years for the first Rafale. We will then be in 2023. The Standard F4.1 will be available, the standard F4.2 will be tested but the hardware will be available, the software will be available also but not at the level of quality required for an airborne application, so we will deliver in F4 .1 and we will retrofit the software 2 years later.
 
Things can change drastically as two of the best test pilots of IN are taking premature retirement within next six months. IN will have no one to help them decide about which fighter to choose. Both Aviators are well known and very respected faces of IN and also coursemates. Hope to bring both of them onboard MSA project.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil said:
I do not worry, it will take at least a year to sign the contract, after that it will take 4 years to produce: a year to build the plant, or evolve that of DRAL and 3 years for the first Rafale. We will then be in 2023. The Standard F4.1 will be available, the standard F4.2 will be tested but the hardware will be available, the software will be available also but not at the level of quality required for an airborne application, so we will deliver in F4 .1 and we will retrofit the software 2 years later.
Click to expand...

Not a good idea. What this means is IAF will not get a fully functional fighter that they signed up for until 2025. So even if they start GTG negotiations this year, we will still have to wait 7 years, which is no different from the tender.

A better option would be to initiate GTG for 36 F3R for assembly in India and then bring in full scale F4 production for 100 or so jets. That would mean negotiating for two contracts. Then a fully tested F4 will become ready for delivery in 2026. But if this happens, then govt will argue that a tender will be possible because IAF will be getting Rafales all the way until 2026 anyway.

The way I see it--
1. A tender.
2. Quickly buy hundreds of F3R through GTG.
3. Buy 36 F3R through a second contract followed by 100+ F4 through a third contract.
4. Buy 36 F3R and the remaining after a tender.

Option 1 will take a long time.
Option 2 is a massive loss for both countries.
Option 3 is the most efficient, but efficiency is the enemy of democracies.
Option 4 is what we have been expecting since quite sometime now. It's the most realistic option.
 
vstol Jockey said:
Things can change drastically as two of the best test pilots of IN are taking premature retirement within next six months. IN will have no one to help them decide about which fighter to choose. Both Aviators are well known and very respected faces of IN and also coursemates. Hope to bring both of them onboard MSA project.
Click to expand...

They should just buy 1 maybe 2 more squadrons of Mig-29K and focus on MSA and AMCA.
 
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vstol Jockey said:
Things can change drastically as two of the best test pilots of IN are taking premature retirement within next six months. IN will have no one to help them decide about which fighter to choose. Both Aviators are well known and very respected faces of IN and also coursemates. Hope to bring both of them onboard MSA project.
Click to expand...

It seems everything is falling into place at the right time. I remember you telling about you being saved from the sharks for building the fighter jet that Bharat deserves. I'm very hopeful now. Good luck sir.

Will you be using AI in flight controls?
 
randomradio said:
I agree about SH's better chances for the navy compared to Rafale. I blame the IN for the problem with the elevator dimensions. The exchange rate also favours the USD.

This commonality argument is just a canard, the real objective is to take away the IN's fighter funding. If you recall, the IN successfully argued that they can't operate LUH, Mi-26 and Ka-226, that they need their own helicopter tenders for their specific maritime environment through navy-controlled tenders. So I don't believe the GoI will force the IAF to buy whatever IN buys based on the same argument. There is room for both the IN and IAF to have their own separate MII tenders.
Click to expand...

Aren't you contradicting your own argument??

If both IAF and IN can have separate contracts ergo separate funds for the acquisition of LUH/NLUH, why should IN's choice matter to IAF? since both have separate capital budgets to play with?

I think its a matter of commonality as well, also that the acquisition of IN jets before IAF's MMRCA (which is a definite possibility since Navy has already send RFIs) could push the program back a couple of years. @vstol Jockey
 
Picdelamirand-oil said:
Yes it's unambiguous, 113 is a price!
Click to expand...
All inclusive price.

You weren't far-off. Just increase that by 100% and voila:D
Picdelamirand-oil said:
No it's not the same, because Dassault, Safran, and Thales have paid 25% of the development of the Rafale and they have the authorization of the French government to recover this investment by raising the price of Rafale sold for export .
Click to expand...
Which is why I told you that Indian Rafales will cost 125% of French build Rafales.

It looks like if you dropped your compulsive habit to lie about the numbers, we are in agreement. (y)
 
CountryFirst said:
It seems everything is falling into place at the right time. I remember you telling about you being saved from the sharks for building the fighter jet that Bharat deserves. I'm very hopeful now. Good luck sir.

Will you be using AI in flight controls?
Click to expand...
Both top notch individuals have agreed to consider joining MSA project but the ability to outbid my offer by international consortium to hire them remains a real threat. at the end of the day, its money which makes a mare run. Though a very new and exiting possibility has been offered to me which might completely destroy this whole shit of MMRCA and MII. And the proposal has come from a very very senior person. Its something which no one knows about in India.
 
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