IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi

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Basically, what you are talking about is the ASR. That's not support per se. The LCA program has already seen ASRs from both. The issue with LCA is, the IAF was asked to take the back seat by ADA themselves.
ASR layd down the capability requirement. it does not lay down the exact sensors which are to be fitted in. My POV was regarding that issue. Let IAF and IN come and tell us that they want a particular jammer only instead of us making something of our own.
 
Indigenous cost is not calculated in dollars. So, the exchange rates, foreign exchange reserves don't matter. That is why the cost of indigenous planes are not an issue. War can't be won without cooperation of people. So, wartime prices, conscription, salary etc will remain drastically different from what is during peacetime.

Also, even in peace, the indigenous expense is counted in GDP whereas imports decrease GDP. Government expenses going back to people and in turn causing circulation of resources within is a much better option in terms of improving manufacturing base, infrastructure and economy too
Dude, stop making stupid posts. I want a 57 twin engine CATOBAR capable jet deal signed in the next 5 years. Please give me the list of all the indigenous options. Indigenous programs are 15-20 years away. So let's talk about it when N-AMCA hits IOC.

And why will the cost of a $100M plane suddenly reduce to $60M? It will reduce to 0 because we don't have an indigenous plane.
 
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M88 does not have the size of Kaveri/F414. So, the question of using M88 core does not arise. To make such a core, France will have to design a new core altogether which is as difficult as making a new engine. So, it is not possible to have safranised kaveri.

Moreover with Al31F engine having 124kN thrust, the same engine can be derated to get 110kN thrust flat rated engine for AMCA
do you know how the trade off is done for derating? What is the weight difference between Al31F and EJ-230? Do you anything about TWR of an engine and how much of energy it uses just to run itself? What is the amount of energy which is actually used to propel the aircraft?
A jet engine uses 60% of the energy just to run itself and only 40% is used for propelling an aircraft. The larger the engine, more is the energy used.
Al31F is designed for bigger aircraft. Its fan diameter is so big that a small aircraft like LCA or even AMCA will need huge intakes and bigger fuselage to accommodate them which in turn will result in heavier aircraft and poor performance.
 
Because they were nearly-finished aircraft built for the ADLA. It helped that the Egyptians required very little customization.

Qatar and India demanded a lot more customization, which requires more time to develop, so even if they were given, like the Egyptians, nearly-completed aircraft originally built to French specifications, these first deliveries would not be in the desired standard and would have to be retrofitted once the customer's standard is certified.
YES, but despite the Qatar or Indian customization, the lead time remain 3 years.
 
do you know how the trade off is done for derating? What is the weight difference between Al31F and EJ-230? Do you anything about TWR of an engine and how much of energy it uses just to run itself? What is the amount of energy which is actually used to propel the aircraft?
A jet engine uses 60% of the energy just to run itself and only 40% is used for propelling an aircraft. The larger the engine, more is the energy used.
Al31F is designed for bigger aircraft. Its fan diameter is so big that a small aircraft like LCA or even AMCA will need huge intakes and bigger fuselage to accommodate them which in turn will result in heavier aircraft and poor performance.
I expect AMCA to be slightly smaller than F15. F15 has PW F110 engine which has similar sizeand dimensions as Al31F and similar thrust. Since AMCA is expected to be 5th generation plane, the wing loading will be higher than F15 and the thrust requirement will also be higher. So, I suggested that Al31F can be used for AMCA. F15 seems to be working fine with PW F100 engine. So, I just assumed that it will work fine even in AMCA. The TWR of Al31F is similar to that of F404, F100 engines
 
Yes, the one on the right is the Rafale-M (naval version). It has a different, stronger landing gear.

That's why I posted this pic - both Air Force & Navy versions of Rafale.
The two versions differ only by : the landing gear, an integrated electrical ladder for M model, a system to align INS central with those of the carrier on M, a fast emptying system to reduce fuel Qty before recovery on M model. THAT'S ALL.
 
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M88 does not have the size of Kaveri/F414. So, the question of using M88 core does not arise. To make such a core, France will have to design a new core altogether which is as difficult as making a new engine. So, it is not possible to have safranised kaveri.
M88 was developped from the early stage as a familly : from 75Kn to 110Kn. So it will not be a great problem to upscale a core ! (easier in that way than to downsize it)
 
The size of M88 is too small. If the size is increased, it won't fit into rafale. If size isn't increased, thrust can't be increased and core will be small for Kaveri
M88 was developped from the early stage as a familly : from 75Kn to 110Kn. So it will not be a great problem to upscale a core ! (easier in that way than to downsize it)
 
M88 was developped from the early stage as a familly : from 75Kn to 110Kn. So it will not be a great problem to upscale a core ! (easier in that way than to downsize it)
If they can actually tune Kaveri to 110KN, it will be the first engine in the world to touch the 10:1 TWR.
 
ASR layd down the capability requirement. it does not lay down the exact sensors which are to be fitted in. My POV was regarding that issue. Let IAF and IN come and tell us that they want a particular jammer only instead of us making something of our own.

This is exactly what ADA did not allow IAF to do.

The IAF asked for a different aircraft in their ASR. That changed to something else that we now call Mk1, it was done by ADA alone. And now, we finally have the IAF deciding what they want in the Mk1A and Mk2, which is why we are seeing progress.
 
Indigenous cost is not calculated in dollars. So, the exchange rates, foreign exchange reserves don't matter. That is why the cost of indigenous planes are not an issue. War can't be won without cooperation of people. So, wartime prices, conscription, salary etc will remain drastically different from what is during peacetime.

Also, even in peace, the indigenous expense is counted in GDP whereas imports decrease GDP. Government expenses going back to people and in turn causing circulation of resources within is a much better option in terms of improving manufacturing base, infrastructure and economy too

Dude, you are tying something entirely different with something that has no relation to what we are talking about.

If we start Rafale MII, pretty much the entire aircraft will be built using rupees.
 
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I've heard that DA found a solution : a quick fin tips removal system for Rafale .....

That only works on IAC-1. What we need is a fix for the first carrier, which has much smaller elevators.

Whatever can be operated from the first carrier can be operated from the second also.
 
Are you sure? can you please post their TWRs.

117S - 1570Kg, 145KN - TWR > 9
117 - 1420Kg, 147KN - Can be upgraded to greater thrust if engine is chosen for serial production. TWR > 10.5
F135 - 1700Kg, 190KN - Will be upgraded to 210KN in a few years. TWR > 11 to 12.5
Type 30 - ~1100 to 1200Kg, 178KN. 30% lighter than 117S(presumably) and 30% greater thrust. TWR > 15, if we go by this estimate.

The Type 30 is so light because it has only 8 stages compared to 13 stages of the AL-31F/117S.

This is 117, which is lighter than AL-31F/117S by 150Kg because it has 10 stages.
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When you are talking of 1 squadron each, then no. But if you are talking about 5 squadrons each, then yes. Commonality goes to the dogs after 5 squadrons. Beyond that, it makes no difference.

If you go for 6 squadrons, you need 3 bases. If you go for 12 squadrons, you need 6. Cost of 6 bases of modern jets today will be similar. So it doesn't matter if you have two types or one.

For other bases, they send out detachments, which will cost the same. So a Rafale can operate in a F-35 base because the detachment will carry all the necessary equipment from base to base.

Cost of an MRO facility is not expensive compared to the cost of the LCC of hundreds of jets.

The cost of MRO is just one aspect and an expensive one when you have to setup the infra for two different types, which is unnecessary if you have only one type of fighter.
Also what about the others I pointed out in my previous comment? Why did you skip them?

You have confused yourself between Hornets and Super Hornets. They are two entirely different aircraft. If the F-35s aren't coming in to fill up the space for Hornets, they are replacing the aging Hornets with Super Hornets. The numbers are not big enough to quality as a replacement program.

The USN doesn't like the F-35 program, that's why they are going for another as a SH replacement.

F/A-XX: The U.S. Navy's 6th Generation Strike Aircraft...in 2035?

Different aircraft belonging to the same family, which means same infrastructure and training. It's a natural progression. Like LCA Mk-1 and Mk-2. It's not a replacement, but capability enhancement. So again, your argument is illogical.

Did the USN launch a separate competition to select the SHornet? Then how can you say they selected the Shornet just because they wanted a different fighter compared to those used by USAF?

It's too early for the F/A-XX program to say if there will/(not) be any commonality between USAF and USN requirements. So let's not speculate.

Also, stop comparing USN with IN. The amount of budget and industrial partnership they have is the stuff of dreams for IN. Your theory of separate fleet and requirements vis-a-vis IAF is not at all practical, at least for a decade or even two.

Change that to 600 Sea Harriers and 500 Rafale-Ms. Those are the numbers we are talking about.

Piddly numbers don't change anything, but when you start talking about huge numbers, enough to make an entirely new air force, you need complete abandonment of commonality, especially for India where IAF needs aircraft operating over mountains while IN needs to operate over the sea.

What are you talking about? I was replying to your comments about 'our country's destruction' or something along that line, if IAF and IN operate the same aircraft.

Again, i ask you, how did that affect those countries?
(stop pulling 500-600 fighter numbers out of your ***, like that guy who says India needs a 1000 squadrons)

Yes, it does. Or else, the guy with the bigger number creates ASR.

It's obvious that with the USAF wanting 1700 aircraft and the USN only 260, we know who's actually running the program. So how is that independent?
It means the IN will be one of the largest air forces in the world. So it's obvious they will plan their procurement based on what they need, not what the IAF wants.

It's always the case for any country other than the US. WE DONT HAVE THAT KIND OF MONEY, its simple as that.

There was no competition for the SH. You are confusing Hornet/Falcon competition with the Super Hornet.

Exactly! The USN selected Hornets over Falcons because it met the requirements, They would have selected the Falcons if it was the other way around, even if they were operated by USAF.

Then how can you say they selected the Shornet just because they wanted a different fighter compared to those used by USAF, since SHornet was a natural progression of Hornet?

They have come to the realization that the F-35 program is flawed. They should have gone for three different designs.

Yes, the US should have gone for different fighters, but the planning was done during the time they were also thinking about sequestration. It was a bad move and they're paying the price for it.

All thoroughly researched. Haven't you heard of Theater Commands?

Oh, I know about theatre commands alright. Just not your version of its interpretation.

In 2001, the IAF projected its requirement under the Medium Range Combat Aircraft (MRCA) deal for single-engine jet fighters. The scope of the deal changed dramatically when the government said that they wanted to include twin-engine fighters in the IAF's fighter-fly off. Since twin-engine jets are heavier and more capable, "MRCA" warped into "MMRCA," or Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft, a deal which was ultimately scrapped altogether in 2016, after an incredible 15-year process.

Since the other thread was closed, i'll answer this here.

I've already agreed that IAF needed a M-2000 class fighter. Quote me an IAF officer saying they need an SE fighter explicitly, separate from the LCA, before the MMRCA was launched.
 
117S - 1570Kg, 145KN - TWR > 9
117 - 1420Kg, 147KN - Can be upgraded to greater thrust if engine is chosen for serial production. TWR > 10.5
F135 - 1700Kg, 190KN - Will be upgraded to 210KN in a few years. TWR > 11 to 12.5
Type 30 - ~1100 to 1200Kg, 178KN. 30% lighter than 117S(presumably) and 30% greater thrust. TWR > 15, if we go by this estimate.

The Type 30 is so light because it has only 8 stages compared to 13 stages of the AL-31F/117S.

This is 117, which is lighter than AL-31F/117S by 150Kg because it has 10 stages.
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I do not agree with you as the thrust parameters as stated by you have yet to be achieved. When I calculated the TWR of Kaveri upgraded by SAFRAN, i used the current weight of Kaveri which is about 1125kgs. The refined Kaveri may turn out to be 1050 kgs design as it is just 3.5m long plus new materials in some of the core areas will result in that kind of weight saving. If the weight comes down to 1050kgs, the TWR will be over 11:1.
 
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