IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi

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Aashish said:
The challenge is Indian defence procurement never calls it as dead.

What we wanted, Russia is not ready to give access to as well as not agree on certain aspects in techo commercial agreement.

This has caused a stalemate. That has been the status for last 2 years. Contrary to Russian media quotes or official snips, truth is it's dying a slow death with time.

Unless Russia changes things, it's not gonna change anything.

IAF experience of MKI has taught it to be really hard.

Moreover if IAF gets 200+ Rafales then I am sure it will agree for FGFA in max 60 odd numbers.. but beyond it, it's doubtful.

With Kaveri family now coming online a new AHCA is becoming a strong reality after AMCA. So scope of FGFA is further going down.
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So, practically speaking, if India wants a stealth fighter any time soon, it's gonna have to be the F-35?
 
If I am right, Su30 MKI was given full ToT for India. Even Al31F is made in HAL Koraput. So, the way I see it, India did not have a better deal than Su30 MKI. No country has ever given ToT of such high level to any other country.

I would be really grateful for giving such a ToT to India in desperate times. Can you explain why is Su30 MKI experience was bad for IAF?
Aashish said:
IAF experience of MKI has taught it to be really hard
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randomradio said:
Yep. There are only two ways possible for Rafale. Either fold wings or cut the elevator.
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Neither of that is happening. Navy is not cutting the elevators.

RATHORE said:
Isn't the INAA likely to go for Rafales anyways?
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Not at all. may be for IAC-2 only at a much later stage and that too might go to N-AMCA.

RATHORE said:
That must be for the Vikramaditya, right? What about future ships, won't they need Rafales for those? After all, the Navy didn't seem to be a big fan of the 29K's.
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Vikky and IAC-1 configurations are frozen and they might stick to Mig series only.

Desi Lover said:
Isnt AMCA supposed to replace M2k, 29s and jaguars?
Besides, India had a total of 165 Mig 27s. That means it will get 165 Rafaels max if it is getting them only to replace the 27
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AMCA will most likely come up as replacement of SU-30MKI which get retired from service or for attrition replacements. If IN does not chose Rafale-M, which they never will, the chances are that there may not be any Rafale MII and we might order two more squadrons directly from France.

Aashish said:
With Kaveri family now coming online a new AHCA is becoming a strong reality after AMCA. So scope of FGFA is further going down.
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AMCA is already going to be about 32-34 tons aircraft. Its wing area is 50sqm and not what has been reported by many here or in wiki.
 
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vstol Jockey said:
Not at all. may be for IAC-2 only at a much later stage and that too might go to N-AMCA.


Vikky and IAC-1 configurations are frozen and they might stick to Mig series only.
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So the only way the Navy goes for Rafales on the IAC 1 is if a way is found to fold the wings, correct? And you were saying that Dassault still hasn't been able to find a way to do that?

Also, do you think they might go for a few extra IAF configuration Rafales and hand those over to the INAA since they are going to eventually take over shore defense (as well as for any potential island deployments)?
 
vstol Jockey said:
AMCA will most likely come up as replacement of SU-30MKI which get retired from service or for attrition replacements. If IN does not chose Rafale-M, which they never will, the chances are that there may not be any Rafale MII and we might order two more squadrons directly from France.
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Isn't Su30 made fully in India? Is there a reason to replace it considering that it is still a new plane with most of them inducted after 2005 and has 35 years of life?
RATHORE said:
So the only way the Navy goes for Rafales on the IAC 1 is if a way is found to fold the wings, correct? And you were saying that Dassault still hasn't been able to find a way to do that?

Also, do you think they might go for a few extra IAF configuration Rafales and hand those over to the INAA since they are going to eventually take over shore defense (as well as for any potential island deployments)?
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The Rafales have delta wings. Delta wings are harder to fold compared to swept wings. It is highly unlikely that Rafale will make folding wings for at most 100 planes. It will require a lot of redesign in the structure
 
RATHORE said:
So the only way the Navy goes for Rafales on the IAC 1 is if a way is found to fold the wings, correct? And you were saying that Dassault still hasn't been able to find a way to do that?
Also, do you think they might go for a few extra IAF configuration Rafales and hand those over to the INAA since they are going to eventually take over shore defense (as well as for any potential island deployments)?
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It is a decision to be taken by DA. the contraption offered by DA for Vikky and IAC-1 has not found favour with IN.

Kshithij Sharma said:
Isn't Su30 made fully in India? Is there a reason to replace it considering that it is still a new plane with most of them inducted after 2005 and has 35 years of life?
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we are losing about 6-8 fighters every year for various reasons. In next 15 years, we might end up losing nearly 90-120 aircraft and majority of them will be Su-30MKIs.
 
Kshithij Sharma said:
The Rafales have delta wings. Delta wings are harder to fold compared to swept wings. It is highly unlikely that Rafale will make folding wings for at most 100 planes. It will require a lot of redesign in the structure
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You're right.
But at the beginning, a folding wings solution for the 85 french Rafale M was on the drawing board.
The 85 became 60 and now 48...
And the folding wings abandonned for financial reason only. It's possible te reactivate it. Only a € small problem.
 
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RATHORE said:
And you were saying that Dassault still hasn't been able to find a way to do that?
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Dassault is able to study and make EVERYTHING (see in the past : a mach2 VTOL, ballisctic missiles for Israel, Dead born Hermes Shuttle...).
A pair of folding wings is piece of cake for DA ! The only problem DA is/was facing is funds.
 
Bon Plan said:
Dassault is able to study and make EVERYTHING (see in the past : a mach2 VTOL, ballisctic missiles for Israel, Dead born Hermes Shuttle...).
A pair of folding wings is piece of cake for DA ! The only problem DA is/was facing is funds.
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France has had folding wings on Etendard aircraft for very long time. Nothing new for them.
 
Was Etendard a Delta wing aircraft without tail? Do you have any precedence of delta wing aircrafts having folding wings? Delta wing aircrafts have rigid design by default and hence is difficult to modify to be folding unless the provision was made by appropriate adjustments while designing the aircraft itself. If the folding ability has to be added later, it will require major redesign
vstol Jockey said:
France has had folding wings on Etendard aircraft for very long time. Nothing new for them.
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Kshithij Sharma said:
Was Etendard a Delta wing aircraft without tail? Do you have any precedence of delta wing aircrafts having folding wings? Delta wing aircrafts have rigid design by default and hence is difficult to modify to be folding unless the provision was made by appropriate adjustments while designing the aircraft itself. If the folding ability has to be added later, it will require major redesign
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Just do a google of deck based fighters of USN and you will have better knowledge on this subject. BTW, what kind of wing does F-35C has?
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You'll notice how the wings are folded quite far away from the fuselage. Which was my point with the Super Hornet, its width with folded wings isn't that much shorter than the Rafale M's width.
 
A Person said:
You'll notice how the wings are folded quite far away from the fuselage. Which was my point with the Super Hornet, its width with folded wings isn't that much shorter than the Rafale M's width.
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10.8m on the Rafale and 9.93m with folded wings on SH. Neither aircraft can be operated from either carrier without redesign of the wings. Even the SH's wings don't provide enough clearance.

Only Mig-29K goes down to 7.5m folded.
 
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