India - Pakistan Standoff 2019
- Thread starter nair
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Could be, but I have my doubts. The level of intelligence we have regarding these aspects is surprising.
Let me counter it with another one. F-16s are not precluded from being used in defense. Hence, they remain an integral component of the PAF's planning in countering IAF's dominance within their airspace. In case of a conflict, there is no limitation on their use as long as PAF is responding to a legitimate attack. That can always be managed in case of overt hostilities.
In the present case, IAF was involved in what was publicly and diplomatically declared as an anti-terror strike on targets of JeM. In response, PAF was found to be violating the LC (technical itself is a violation). That does not qualify as a defensive operation by any stretch of imagination, and that is one reason why India has chosen not to respond immediately to this act of aggression. Pakistan, in its frenzy, dug itself in a hole.
They can. But will they? That is where the diplomatic initiatives come into place. It will be very foolish of a country like Saudi Arabia to take a military position against India in terms of military supplies to Pakistan. One needs to be very clear on that front. Two can tango and India is no more averse to flexing it's proverbial muscle now.
I sincerely hope they move in that direction. PRC will junk them as soon as they can, if their core interests are threatened. Pakistan is more or less fending for itself right now. In case of overt hostilities, I do not foresee Pakistan being supplied actively by PRC.
@safriz There you go... Most likely India has way more remnants than just the casings. Picture of some of them will find their way into Pentagon, some more will go directly and yet some more will go into DRDO labs.
I hope people realize that the Armed Forces are deployed along LC? It is actually quite well covered in terms of aerial observability.
And we hid it? They have no clue of India, do they? Had one more AC been shot down:
a. I would have come to know in real time thorough our grapevine
b. Videos by 'pro-Pakistani' elements in Kashmir would have made it viral by loads by now.
I believe I am capable of flying too. Beliefs and facts are two different variables.
F-16s undertook a technical violation. I have never claimed they moved well into our side. They breached the 10 km limit on their side and then ingressed 3-4 kms within our side (hardly any time takes to do that and egress) and then the Mig-21 followed them into the zone, undertaking a technical violation itself and was engaged in near proximity to the LC, the alignment of which resulted in the aircraft crossing over as it became a dead duck and pilot had to lose altitude prior to ejecting. The 'drifting' of parachute is mere conjecture.
They are avoiding because they have nothing. They are, instead, claiming the Mi-17 debris as Su-30!
We have nothing other the missile. We have ELINT and SIGINT. That is something they also want to know. Forget that. No way are we going to tell what we had roaming there.
An egressing F-16 somehow turned back into Indian side and crashed? That is ... stretch of imagination x 10
@vstol Jockey
Was there a bigger air combat scenario than this after the Vietnam War? Say, the Sino-Vietnamese War?
IIRC, the Israelis were the last to fight a large air battle. And it's possible something similar may have happened between China and Vietnam in the 90s.
Was there a bigger air combat scenario than this after the Vietnam War? Say, the Sino-Vietnamese War?
IIRC, the Israelis were the last to fight a large air battle. And it's possible something similar may have happened between China and Vietnam in the 90s.
1. The PAF aircraft were beyond the 'technical' violation demarcation. ROE did not permit engagement of targets beyond 10 km of their side?
2. Our Mig-21 was in technical violation being adjacent to LC.
Iran-Iraq war (even with the initially imprisoned "pro-shah" F-14 pilots) had stuff of similar scale happening (the information is sketchy though)....
Sino-vietnam war had very little air engagement. The PLAAF were kept more or less grounded because of Chinese fear of what the Soviet escalation might have been.
There were aerial engagements in both gulf wars including the reported Mig 25 that shot down the F-18 (LT. com Speicher, which in itself is a big story full of conspiracies/twists esp given the massive reformulation of AWAC doctrine the US went through afterwards)....but the sizes of the engagements are sketchy.
Other than that we only have rumours of what have happened in Russia vs Ukraine aerial situation and also their mercenary engagements in Ethiopia-Eritrea conflict from the 90s. I don't think anything of this reported scale there though. Peru vs Ecuador border conflict was also quite limited in scale. Armenia-Azerbaijan, both airforces were basically out of action given Soviet breakup, and refusal of Russia to arm/support the AF of either side....which would have been their call given the infra in place.
this is my take:
SU's locked, but dint take action when they saw the PAF aircraft leaving Indian side. the Mig pilot couldnt control the urge to take the shot. It was never India's intention to engage with Pak Army/AF - we were only interested in hitting the terror network.
Pak took the attack on the terror network as an attack on themselves.
"NDTV has learned that imagery acquired by the government from two different sources will likely establish that the Spice 2000 glide bombs hit five separate structures along a ridge-line to the west of the town of Bisian near Balakot in Pakistan's Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province."
What Happened At Balakot? Unreleased Satellite Pics May Prove India's Case
What Happened At Balakot? Unreleased Satellite Pics May Prove India's Case
I can buy it in a few hours by driving to London and visiting a dealer
Then board a plane and 8 hours later I will be in India. Total time less than 20 hours.
So you really believe that we searched ebay to find parts so that we can build a new F-16 from ebay?
This is the most stupid argument I have ever heard.
yet you think India does that - find parts from ebay and throw it around in kashmir, then bring it back to show the media. see how stupid that sounds?
the most logical argument: f-16 was used.
also, Desi's arent really known to adhere to end user agreements - how many folks in Pakistan have the original Windows versions anyways?
lets say - hypothetically, you did use the f-16 from USA which you werent supposed to use. What would Pakistan's defense be?
Showing a piece of missiles on press conference is one thing and building a military jet from ebay is another. I am laughing while writing this comment.
Our defense will be the usual F. Off. They need us until they are in Afghanistan and we know that.
think how badly we were laughing when you showed the ebay links? we knew you guys would bring that up.. which is why posted that message - that you guys will bring up the ebay or alibaba or something.
Listen, lets really talk sensibly - I am not even going to bait you. you believe your ISPR does no wrong. Correct? and hence that is your basis to believe that the Indian airforce spokesperson faked the AMRAAM missile. right?
Lets looks at the Indian point of view - we believe our armed forces and dont believe the ISPR. right? so obviously for us, you guys are faking. no amount of chest thumping in defense forums is going to change that.
there are enough number of people on your side as well as ours doubting their own armed forces. but one way or the other, the truth will come out.
case in point: many PA soldiers getting recognition for Kargil a good 10 years later.
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