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Don't know where the problem is.
Don't know what perception war they won
It is fully clear that Pakistan has been awarded victory in the perception battles.

The current narrative internationally is
  • India targeted Pakistan with strikes that hit nothing more than trees and 'Indian' claims of 300 dead are a joke
  • Pakistan immediately retaliated, shot an Indian jet down and captured Indian pilot. Earned a big diplo victory by releasing the pilot. Big slap in the face for India who is too scared to respond
  • F-16 being downed has no evidence or credibility and is lumped into the 'disputed claims' category along with Pakistani claim of 2nd Indian jet down.
Don't know how anyone can dispute any of this. You don't need to just rely on BBC or NYT, plenty of defence-sites (The Drive, FA, Keypub, various Sub-reddits) have similar consensus.

Obviously people in the know know what happened which is why I am not bothered by this situation but to claim that it is not an outright Pakistani propaganda victory is delusional.
 
Don't know where the problem is.

It is fully clear that Pakistan has been awarded victory in the perception battles.

The current narrative internationally is
  • India targeted Pakistan with strikes that hit nothing more than trees and 'Indian' claims of 300 dead are a joke
  • Pakistan immediately retaliated, shot an Indian jet down and captured Indian pilot. Earned a big diplo victory by releasing the pilot. Big slap in the face for India who is too scared to respond
  • F-16 being downed has no evidence or credibility and is lumped into the 'disputed claims' category along with Pakistani claim of 2nd Indian jet down.
Don't know how anyone can dispute any of this. You don't need to just rely on BBC or NYT, plenty of defence-sites (The Drive, FA, Keypub, various Sub-reddits) have similar consensus.

Obviously people in the know know what happened which is why I am not bothered by this situation but to claim that it is not an outright Pakistani propaganda victory is delusional.
Already answered by @Falcon in pervious post
Nothing new to contribute

It is fully clear that Pakistan has been awarded victory in the perception battles.
Did anybody provide them trophy or it's changed there situation what they were before
 
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Enough With The Indian Mig-21 Bison Versus Pakistani F-16 Viper Bullshit

I have never seen such a large and diverse mess of misinformation spouted and parroted with wild abandon about a military skirmish than what has come out of the short spate of Pakistani-Indian air battles that occurred in late February. But one aspect of those operations, in particular, has been so ridiculously mischaracterized by the media, so-called analysts, and the public in general, that the majority of narratives surrounding it have to be called out for what they are—total bullshit. During a Pakistani Air Force counterstrike operation on February 27th, one that came in response to India's air raid into their territory on February 26th, an Indian MiG-21 Bison was shot down and its pilot, Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman, captured. He was returned to India in remarkably good shape not long after. Claims that India shot down a Pakistani F-16 during that same incident quickly followed.

WE CUT THROUGH THE CONFLICTING CLAIMS AND MISINFORMATION SURROUNDING INDIA'S STRIKES ON PAKISTANBy Joseph TrevithickPosted in THE WAR ZONE

What has come as a result of all this has been a full-on information assault of laughably childish narratives that lack any understanding of modern air combat and appear to be largely driven by blind nationalism, political spin, or straight-up stupidity, not reality or fact.
India now officially claims that they shot down a Pakistani F-16 and that Wing Commander Varthaman was the one who did it just before he himself got shot down. I have to make clear that we have zero evidence that a Pakistani F-16 was lost in combat. None. That does not mean it didn't happen, it just means that at this time we have no reason to believe it beyond taking India's word for it.

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INDIAN AIR FORCE
MiG-21 Bison.

The videos and images being passed around online that supposedly support the downed F-16 claim are pure misinformation made up of repackaged old media from past incidents or blatant mistruths peddled by "open source intelligence" social media congregators and nationalist pundit accounts supporting the Indian side of the long and sad standoff between the two nuclear-armed neighbours. Maybe the most notorious piece of media being used to push the F-16 shoot down narrative is a set of pictures of aircraft wreckage showing what some claim is the outer casing of a GE-F110 turbofan engine. There are many issues with the photos to begin with—Bellingcat even did a big and totally unnecessary write up on it—but one needs to look no further than the simple fact that Pakistan has never operated a single F-16A/B/C/D with a General Electric engine. All of the country's F-16s have run F100 series Pratt & Whitney engines since Pakistan first acquired the type decades ago.

So, case closed when it comes to one of the most prolific examples of the garbage mound of 'evidence' swirling around the incident. Once again, throngs of people, including major news outlets from around the globe, arguing about a subject they know nothing about.
But the question of if a seemingly archaic MiG-21 shot down a Pakistani F-16 really isn't the issue here. The problem is that so many have said that such a loss would have been near impossible or a sign of some sort of super embarrassing blunder by an incompetent Pakistani Air Force, or even that the F-16's value and capabilities as a modern combat aircraft should be discounted due to the purported loss. This is all absolute and total swill.

Here's why:

Modern air combat is not a Hollywood blockbuster movie or an arcade game folks! There are so many factors that go into every single air-to-air engagement—even those that occur in a relatively sterile vacuum for training—that acting as if the loss of a more modern and capable airframe to an older and less capable one is some sort of unheard of and damning evidence as to the latter's relevance and effectiveness on the modern battlefield is absolutely inaccurate.

First off, the MiG-21 Bison that India flies, with well over 100 operational in its inventory, is not the 'Fishbed' of the Cold War era. The aircraft was updated with 4th generation fighter avionics and sensors in the late 1990s and early 2000s.

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AEROPRINTS/WIKICOMMONS
Indian MiG-21 Bison loaded with R-73 and R-77 missiles.
This upgrade included a glass cockpit, radar warning receiver, and a helmet mounted cueing system for firing the high off-boresight R-73 short-range air-to-air missile. Although it isn't disclosed, it seems to include a data-link terminal, as well. A Phazatron Kopyo ("Spear") lightweight multi-mode radar was installed in the jet's nosecone that also allowed it to employ the R-77 beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile. That upgraded radar may also have received certain tweaks that have improved its performance or it may have been replaced with an even more capable foreign radar set altogether. Other additions included a bubble canopy with far superior visibility compared to the MiG-21's original smaller and more densely framed one. Expansive countermeasures dispensers were installed as well. With the ability to carry smarter weapons, the Bison also received a very important piece of equipment from Israel, the bolt-on Elta-8222 self-protection electronic warfare pod. This was cutting edge tech in the early 2000s, but even today it is still amazingly formidable and is capable of wreaking absolute havoc on enemy radar systems—especially mechanically-scanned array fire control radars found on most 4th generation fighters.

All this adds up to a potent little package for not a lot of money and the MiG-21 already sports certain advantages like small radar and visual signatures from certain aspects, as well as the ability to make hard instantaneous turns and fast supersonic dashes. But when you pair the Bison package with creative tactics and networking, as well as a host of other aircraft and an experienced pilot, it becomes far more lethal than the sum of its parts.

You don't have to take Tyler Rogoway's word for this. The USAF found this out the hard way during one of the most beneficial learning moments in modern air combat training history. Cope India 2004 saw American F-15Cs paired off against the pointy-end of India's wildly diverse Air Force. Although India's Su-30Ks were close to the best thing Russia had to export at the time, and their French-built Mirage 2000s were certainly not to be discounted, the most surprising star of the exercise was the insidious little Bison.

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Mirage 2000s, Su-30Ks, and F-15Cs during Cope India 2004.

During the air combat training drills, Indian Air Force Su-30Ks would use their powerful radars to build-up situational awareness and then data-link their 'picture' to other aircraft in the airborne force, which seemed to include the upgraded MiG-21s. Either way, the Su-30 pilots could also use radio communications to inform the Bisons of threats and tactical opportunities. The Bison pilots, running with their radars off and emitting few to no electronic emissions that could alert the F-15 crews as to their whereabouts, would use this situational information to their advantage.

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MiG-21 Bison pictured packing an Elta-8222 jamming pod.

With their Elta-8222 jamming pods fired up and wreaking havoc on the F-15C's legendarily powerful AN/APG-63 radar, combined with their already small radar and visual signature, the Bisons would come screaming in out of nowhere to within visual range of the Eagles. They would proceed to shoot the F-15s in the face with their infrared-guided R-73 missiles before blasting by. And even if the Eagles noticed the Bisons at the last moment, the Bison pilots could negate the raw performance of the hulking F-15s by employing the 'fire and forget' R-73 nearly 90 degrees of the centerline of their noses using their helmet-mounted targeting system.
To put it metaphorically, the Bison wasn't a cavalry soldier or a scout,
it was a ninja.


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Bisons in formation.

Overall, during that historic 2004 Cope India exercise, F-15 pilots found themselves having to react to rapidly changing tactics as the Indian airborne force constantly morphed their playbook in reaction to the Eagles' moves and entering into visual fights just after picking up the Indian fighters that were already right on top of them on the radar. By then the Indians were also locked on, as well. It was a notoriously brutal, but highly beneficial learning experience for the Air Force. And yes, rules of engagement for the exercise were set purposely to fulfil certain training goals and push the Eagle force hard. This included limiting the F-15s from firing their simulated AIM-120 AMRAAMs in active mode radar homing mode and only engaging at 20 miles or less with those missiles in their degraded state.

The Eagles were also outnumbered—at times as much as three to one—but that wasn't entirely uncommon for the F-15C/D force. The U.S. flying contingent was also made up of fleet pilots from an active squadron flying against a composite force of India's most advanced aviators. But most of all, the Americans lacked their E-3 Sentry Airborne Warning And Control System (AWACS)—a staple of USAF air combat doctrine that traditionally enhanced the F-15's situational awareness and survivability dramatically by acting as their high-powered eyes and ears on high.

But still, the message was clear—future enemies may be far more tactically resourceful than previously realized, regardless of the quality of their equipment. The Pentagon had to react fast if it wanted to retain its air combat edge. Realizing and facing the shortcomings of equipment and tactics through high-quality training and experimentation, and attempting to remediate those shortcomings as much as possible, is the hallmark of a great flying force, not a poor one. The Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS), which was already slated for the F-15C/D community, would soon find its way on many other American fighters as well. The push to get Active Electronic Scanned Array (AESA) radars that are far more capable than their mechanically scanned array predecessors—and especially more adept at spotting small radar cross-section targets moving fast in the ground clutter even in dense electronic warfare combat environments— was accelerated for the F-15C/D community.

Other upgrades that are still in the works, including for the F-15 force, were spurred by the Cope India's after-action findings. For instance, the F-15C/Ds infrared search and track system, which is just in the process of being procured now, would have helped greatly when it came to detecting the Bisons at beyond visual ranges regardless of the electronic warfare systems being employed against the Eagles. You can read all about this and IRSTs in general in this past feature of mine. And what do you know? American aggressor aircraft were soon spotted packing Elta-8222 electronic warfare pods. :D In fact, Cope India 2004, and Cope India 2005 that produced similarly dismal results were key factors in enhancing the way American aggressors did business, as well as some of the kit they had to help them replicate contemporary threats.

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USAF 64th AGRS jet over the Nellis Test and Training Range packing a Elta-8222 jamming pods.

The Israeli EW system showed up USAF aggressors in the aftermath of Cope India 2004/2005. In essence, thank goodness for the Bison and the tactics employed by the Indian Air Force during Cope India 2004/2005. It gave those in the USAF that were frustrated with the snail's pace of key upgrade programs the evidence they needed to get prioritized funding. As I have described in great detail before, the fact that U.S. fighters received an air-to-air dogfight missile with high-off boresight engagement capabilities—the AIM-9X—and a helmet mounted-sight/display with which to target it—decades after the Russians had fielded a similar capability, is still a bewildering and somewhat frightening fact to comprehend. In fact, the F-22, America's supreme air-to-air weapon, still doesn't have a helmet mounted sight/display system.

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F-15C pilot wearing JHMCS.

So yes, the Bison can be a wily and capable threat when paired with other aerial assets, advanced electronic warfare, and a playbook of guileful and downright creative tactics. This appears to be just how the aircraft was used during the shoot down in late February. According to reports, the Bison was in the air with Mirage 2000, Su-30MKIs, and maybe most important, the Embraer 145 based DRDO Airborne Early Warning and Control System. This aircraft is not only able to get a 'God's eye' view of the battlespace, including spotting low-flying bogeys and detecting and geolocating the enemy's radar and communications emissions, but it can share what it sees via data-link or voice direction with Indian fighters. In other words, those constantly morphing tactics and the unique employment of the Bison would have been only more potent over a decade and a half after Cope India 2004 via the help of the IAF's new advanced airborne early warning and control aircraft.

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VENKAT MANGUDI/WIKICOMMONS
IAF DRDO AEW&C aircraft.

So now that we have painted the big picture regarding the Bison, its capabilities, and how India has employed it in the past, it has to be made clear that we have very few hard facts about the engagement that brought the Bison down and supposedly did the same to the F-16.
What was the quality of both pilots' situational awareness at the time? What was the electronic warfare environment like? Were communications flowing freely or were they degraded? What was the intelligence picture before the sorties even launched? What was the exact position of the Bison in relation to the fighter that shot it down and what was the experience level of the pilot onboard that aircraft? Was the Bison flying at low-level, using the mountainous terrain to mask its radar signature? What was the opposing aircraft's mission? Was it offensive or defence counter-air? Were the Pakistanis baiting the Indians knowing full well how they employ their fighter aircraft? What was the real-time intelligence picture on both sides? Did Pakistan have intelligence aircraft airborne and sharing info with its fighters? Who knew what was where and when? What weapons were available on both aircraft? What was the exact visibility conditions at the altitude in which the engagement occurred? Was everything working on both jets? What type of plane actually shot down the Bison? If it was an F-16, was it one of Pakistan's plentiful upgraded F-16A/Bs or was it one of the handful of advanced Block 52 F-16C/Ds in their possession? Maybe most importantly, what were the rules of engagement and the general intent of both parties at the time of the engagement?

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Pakistani F-16BM dropping GBU-10s.

And the list goes on and on. So, if you are looking for some definitive account of the engagement itself, you won't find it here as it doesn't exist at this time. Not even remotely close. With all this in mind, is it possible that a MiG-21 Bison shot down a Pakistani F-16?
Of course it is. In fact, India's claim that the Bison got off an R-73 shot just before being shot down fits exactly with what we know about the Bison's sneaky tactics dating back to Cope India 2004.
Does this mean the Bison is superior or equal to the F-16? Or does this put into question the F-16's capabilities? Absolutely not. Networking alone could have been the decisive factor, along with tactics, experience, and electronic warfare, and especially supporting airborne early warning and control aircraft capabilities. This is not just true for the Bison. The Navy and Marines have 45 aggressor F-5N/Fs that are far less capable than the Bison, yet they fly against fleet pilots daily. We are talking about these old jets standing off against Super Hornets that are packed with AESA radars, Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems, advanced data-links, and sometimes even benefitting from E-2D airborne early warning and control support. These F-5N/Fs now have internal electronic warfare suites and other aircraft in their formations during large training drills, like contracted aggressors or Topgun/NAWDC F-16s and F/A-18s, pack advanced electronic warfare pods. But they lack a decent radar, helmet mounted sight and a missile to use it with, and don't have a data-link for coordinated operations without the use of voice communications, among other deficiencies. Yet just like the Bison, these even less capable F-5s still rack up kills on the mighty Super Hornets. It happens far more often than most would believe.

In fact, the Navy just selected a private contractor with F-5s upgraded to a similar, but even more advanced standard than the Bison as their '4th generation' threat replication provider for NAS Fallon Nevada, the home of Topgun. Their competition was offering F-16s. Cost played a major part in the decision, which you can read all about here, but it underscores how sensors, avionics, tactics, and electronic warfare can be more important than the raw performance or age of the platform itself when it comes to modern air combat. Obviously, this rule diminishes greatly when low-observability (stealth) is factored in for 5th generation fighter aircraft. But even with such advanced fighters, old and relatively low-performance aircraft with updated avionics can still pose a threat, especially when employing similarly surprising tactics as the Indians used and when operating as part of a large integrated air combat team that has strength in numbers. In the end, the avalanche of recent direct comparisons of the MiG-21 Bison versus F-16 Viper and who would win in some fictional and largely irrelevant one versus one dogfight carry next to no relevance in regards to recent events, and in general, to a large degree. Anyone who pushes that type of childish analysis—usually paired with a sensationalized headline—as some sort of pathway toward a definitive conclusion on these matters should be viewed as an untrustworthy source.

In other words, read for entertainment value only.

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MiG-21 Bison.

The fact is, the side with the more capable sensor and networking architecture and most potent electronic warfare capabilities, as well as a creative tactics playbook and experience to leverage it, can have a far greater advantage regardless of 'airframe versus airframe' performance differentials. Above all else, the loss of one aircraft, on either or both sides, in a highly complex battlespace, in a region boiling over with aggression and likely buried deep in 'the fog of war,' is not indicative of the quality of an entire nation's air arm or its overall capabilities and the relevancy of its equipment in any tangible way. Both sides have very capable aviators and a mix of varyingly potent weapon systems at their disposal, each with their unique advantages and disadvantages. So, to those who have been pushing totally unsubstantiated 'takes,' peddling fake evidence, spinning what little info is available for political or monetary gain, and/or making grand claims and conclusions backed by a weak knowledge base and childish assumptions about what happened in the skies near the Line of Control late last February, take your often nationalistic and deeply skewed narratives and stuff them up your tailpipes.
 
Did you read the entire article?

I meant exactly what I said, the dismemberment of PA.
Perhaps you're not quite up to date with the developments Indian Strategic Forces Command is making. Ask @Falcon , he might entertain you in this regard. I'd love to share my findings but then I'll be banned in the name of national security. The short version of the story is, Indian is rapidly building up a special part of its military to be able to mount a decapitation strike.
I'm not privy to any insider information except what's in the public domain. I can't claim to have read everything in the public domain too. I assume a decapitation strike would be a CF strike or is it an extension of the CS where in we cut Pakistan into two by an invasion. Unless you're hinting a decapitation involves us taking away the top brass of the PA by unilateral strikes. I'd rather you elaborate on it.


The miscalculation is the underestimated mobility and survivability of its adversary's assets. The resultant risk at present varies from losing almost all western airbases, cantts and population centers...to losing military and civilian targets from Ambala & Jamnagar to Patna & Hyderabad. In a few years, the prized crown-jewels of the SFC on the eastern coast will be in Pakistan's range too (no, I'm not referring to the SSBNs here).
Well, it's tit for tat then . A few dozen of our cities, industrial centres, N installations and bases for all of yours. Not a bad bargain, in my opinion. But that's just my opinion.

Frankly, it seems you're better read in these matters. I'd leave the floor open to @Falcon . He'd be in a better position to opine on our strengths and weaknesses vis a vis yours.


That's true as well.

If the thinking reflected by the Indian developments on ground actually exists in a serious manner (beyond theoretical options) in the upper echelons of the Indian military, they are gravely underestimating Pakistan's capabilities in this specific regard. Contrary to what people may think of the statements put out by the Pakistani military, it conveyed a much deeper message when it introduced "Full Spectrum Deterrence". Pakistan's SFCs are being equipped to fight a nuclear war in multiple conventional theaters of a conflict.

I'm totally clueless. I'm going by the literature by authoritative sources in the public domain. Something which points out to your lack of plutonium re processing facilities. Something which comments on your Uranium reserves and accumulation of FM. Then there are your vectors like Shaheen, Ghauri, Abdali, Babur, etc all copies of 2 nd gen Chinese missiles and their NK derivatives. Again, I'm not passing judgement here. I'm merely reproducing the gist of what knowledgeable commentators on the subject matter reported , both Indian & western.
The threshold is higher than what India has been led to believe. For a long time they were high enough for India to introduce CSD. Afterwards, they've just been lowered enough to deter CSD. Its a long discussion, probably for some other day, but it is not about nuking IBGs moving into Pakistan...its about what happens afterwards. For the record, Pakistan has never officially claimed or identified any nuclear red lines, it has just been posturing...but hey, if it works, why not? However if India chooses to go first with a massive CF strike attempt, then all bets will be off.

I believe such redlines were already declared by Lt Gen K. Kidwai. I forget the occasion on which this declaration was made but it's fairly recent and in the US to a think tank, if memory serves me right.The gist was that Pakistan would resort to first use of N weapons if they were to lose a sizable chunk of their territory ( exactly how much isn't specified) , their economy is threatened, the flow of waters under the IWT is significantly curtailed or stopped. I don't recall any other significant points.

You see the thing about deterrence is it ought to be credible. There's only so much one can bluff. Pakistan and NK aren't attempting anything new. They're taking a leaf out of iron brother here. Except that China was lucky enough to hedge between the US & the USSR and succeed in it's quest. They still seem to have inheirited that part of their " irrationality" In the way they go about their business even today but it isn't as pronounced as it used to be.

Then again we aren't living in the 1950's & 60's and the world has learnt their due lessons on how to tackle such irrational actors. Besides, Pakistan and NK aren't China by any stretch of imagination which is why they aren't getting the traction they're demanding.

Again, I'd defer to @vstol Jockey & @Falcon .

Their knowledge on the points you've raised surpass mine.

To conlude my point, I personally don't think or favour India going in on a pre emptive CF strike, whether conventional or Nuclear, today or a decade down the line, on its own. It'd have to be a concert involving western powers. For , apart from having the technological edge, it needs to appear to have universal consensus.

I also believe, as long as NK - which again has taken a leaf out of iron brother's book and is hedging between the US & China by acting "irrationally ", is in possession of N weapons, nothing will happen to Pakistan and to a lesser extent Iran. The day NK is sorted out, one way or another, the countdown for Pakistan begins.


Regarding yields, you should look at the dimensions and physical parameters of the original CHIC-4 & the warheads of Pakistani missiles. The devices tested in '98 were several iterations of improvements over that design, and new ones. Again, contrary to popular belief, this is one area where Pakistan has made massive progress since the 90s, verified by hydrodynamic testing. Pakistan has no aims for building metropolitan-destroyers, but has plans for demonstrating its capability if India chooses to go first ilike in '98. Instead, Pakistan has focused on miniaturization, while keeping similar yields. The thing about miniaturization is that when it crosses a certain diameter threshold, interesting platforms become increasingly available.

I'd refer you to what I've posted earlier in this very post. But frankly, I'm not very convinced by your claims. I share the opinion of most knowledgeable commentators that Pakistan hasn't innovated on any of the Chinese designs. Unless the Chinese have passed on fresh designs or routed them thru NK. Of course this is a lay man speaking.


True, except that its not just the NDS which benefits from India, TTP & BLA have been quite satisfied business partners as well. The Iranian fiasco is the age-old story of 'supervised' assets getting out of hand, aided by the Saudis. As I've said before, we need to reign in EVERYONE. The US frankly does us a favor, we only had problems with them when they let the TTP leadership get away a couple times, sabotaged our negotiations, or caused too much collateral damage.

Whom do you blame for this? If you go about fishing in troubled waters in your neighborhood, do you think they'd be mute spectators? Besides, I thought the US was doing the heavy lifting for you versus the TTP in Afghanistan.

I'll believe that when India transfers actual military equipment to Afghanistan. Until then, they're just an occasional annoyance to us.
I guess Pulwama just changed that. I expect active partnership with the Iranians and the Afghans with most of your malcontents if not all of them. PTM should be of particular interest. After all, in spite of you hosting the Taliban, none of them have uttered a word on recognizing the Durand line - not now not 20 years ago or before.

Hmmm, let's see...I'll debate only if there are 10 debaters debating at the same time, and if everyone shouts at the top of their voices.
Lagta hai izzat raas nahi aati.

P.S. amusing thread so far, keep it up people.
 
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Nirmala Sitharaman says she knows identity of Pak pilot whose aircraft was shot down by Abhinandan

Union Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman on Tuesday admitted the Indian military knew the identity of the Pakistani pilot whose F-16 fighter aircraft was shot down by Indian Air Force (IAF) MiG-21 Bison, piloted by Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman

Sitharaman, while addressing questions from the audience at Aaj Tak's 'Suraksha Sabha', first seemed non-committal when asked if the forces knew of the Pakistani pilot. But once prodded by India Today TV's Rahul Kanwal and Abhishek Bhalla, she conceded.

"Yes. We know," Sitharaman said, without divulging any further information.
 
We need man power intensive army
Simply because Pakistan has Millions
Of Armed Men , armed with AK 47 and RPGs
And IEDs, other than the Regular Army

Our civilians cant even hold a pistol

If we have smaller numbers our Army
Would be overwhelmed by Fatigue

And the Barbarians would reach Delhi

Pak army has half our size.And we have huge territorial,police and paramilitary as well.
This huge manpower intensive army is a thing of the past.Keep army at 1 million,no more.
If u have air dominance,cluster bombs,smart artillery and mbrls can shred thousands of men in seconds.
Are you even following what's happened in ukraine?Russian recon drones mated with EW brigades and linked with MBRLs slaughtered whole mechanized infantry battalions in seconds with thermobaric warheads and smart munitions.The CBU-105s that we bought from USA,basically will annihilate a whole armour regiment in the open in a single bomb run.
Reach delhi?I think they might,we will parade the survivors as POWs through its streets.
 
HELL FOR LEATHER

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“HELL FOR LEATHER”

Sameer Joshi

Mar 12

ANALYSING THE TACTICAL & TECHNICAL EFFICACY OF THE INDIAN AIR FORCE’s USE OF SPICE 2000 BOMBS TO TARGET PAKISTAN BASED JAISH_E_MOHAMMAD’s (JeM) TERROR CAMP AT JABA HILL TOP, BALAKOT ON 26 FEB 2019

By Sameer Joshi
Dead Seeds


Lamb Of God — Wrath

And you may tremble before hell’s gates
You may watch as the heavens fall
And you may cite the hands of fate
You may heed the siren’s call.



1*Lx6jcVReyL5wWPHJMmKp1g.png


What has baffled the world is why a 2000 lb bomb which hit the madrassa, has not caused widespread explosive damage over the target. George William Herbert, an international weapon’s expert tweeted a few days back that a 2000 lb/ 907 kg bomb like the Mk 84 made of 428 kg trinitol high explosive core and a 479 kg of metal casing, would have obliterated the building, destroying it completely due to the shock wave travelling at over 1.83–2.13 km/s. Typically it would double the pressure inside a standard three storey building around 25 meters wide, further contributing to the damage.

Latest OSINT data reveals that while the targeted structure is still standing, dark smudges or holes are visible on the rooftop, suggesting that SPICE bombs may have penetrated inside the building and gone deep inside the earth, before destroying all in a confined explosion. However, this does not match up to the damage assessment for a Mk 84 or equivalent bomb carried as part of the SPICE 2000 glide kit as brought out by George Herbert. In addition, suspected use of Fuel Air Explosive (FAE) through the SPICE 2000 mission, supported by dark smudges seen in the target area imagery, is also seen as a possibility by some. The use of a thermobaric FAE warhead is however a faint possibility given the low mass warhead.

1*BXEpzhJOFEHKTT0HnjRwyw.png


Assessment by Col Vinayak Bhatt on post strike imagery
IAF sources have recently revealed that the Mirages had used the ‘penetrator’ version of the SPICE 2000 glide bomb, which has a 907 kg hard metal reinforced casing with an embedded ‘low mass’ TNT warhead of 70–80 kg of net explosive quantity (NEQ). This version is designed to target reinforced concrete installations like C2 centres, penetrating deep before carrying out a low mass explosion to eliminate all with shrapnel and a blast over pressure wave, and not necessarily collapsing the targeted installation. The IAF is confident that this is what has happened at Balakot. This theory is reinforced by the statement of Maulana Ammar, the younger brother of the JEM boss Masood Azhar, that the madrassa complex at Jabba top has indeed been hit by Indian bombs; as well as through discreet interviews with eyewitness in the area amid a media clampdown by the Pak army, who confirm witnessing at least 35 bodies of killed JEM militants and ISI operatives being taken out post-strike. Indian intelligence had estimated more than 250 -300 individual active inside the camp before the strike. Details of actual number of casualties remains sceptical as of now.

However, rather than being taken at a face value, this revelation has further given an unwarranted spin within the media and intersecting theories. This is because even a 70–80 kg low mass TNT explosion would send shrapnel and corresponding shock waves upward of 1 km/s as dictated by the Gurney equation out to around 15 meters, enough to cause very significant damage to the targeted structure. Let’s hence diagnostically analyse the usefulnessof the penetrator version of the SPICE 2000 as the bomb used by the IAF in its strike at Balakot.

1*0QByvCkJ512_3WKNkV01Ww.png


A SPICE 2000 kit with a Mk 84 HE bomb
The Right Deal for the Job at Hand?

The weapon to target matching suggests that the IAF was specifically looking to carry out a precision strikes and avoid large area collateral damage. As described after strike by the Indian Foreign Secretary, that the ‘Non-military pre-emptive strikes’ was aimed at targeting the JeM cadre while avoiding civilian and Pak military casualties. Hence the ‘penetrator’ version of the Spice 2000, with a low mass TNT warhead was the right fit for the mission as compared to the high mass Mk 84 bomb equivalent version, which would have inflicted significantly more area damage. The SPICE 2000 is an all weather 1000 kg glide bomb kit, which uses 12 control surface to achieve a definitive range of 60 kilometres. It navigates with the help on IN/ GPS and approaching the target reduces the GPS errors using its electro optical/ infra-red terminal attack sensor. This matches what it sees with pre-loaded satellite/ drone imagery of the target through ‘scene matching’, rapidly reducing the margin of errors and impacting the target within a CEP of less than 3 meters.

The SPICE 2000s used by the IAF has an advanced electrical fuze, which accurately predicts the impact sequence and delay required to activate. This is especially useful when penetrating multiple floors of a building, before exploding on the right level. A microphone embedded with a microcontroller in the smart fuze is used, with the microphone measuring the number of impacts and the microcontroller counting the floors, until the bomb breaks through the desired number of floors. Used extensively by the Israeli Air Force in Lebanon and Syria against tactical battlefield targets and in urban areas, the SPICE 2000 has a near perfect operational reliability record.

The focus of strike of the SPICE 2000 bombs was the Madrassa complex at the north edge of Jabba top, dominated by a huge 30 meters (length) x 30 meters (width) x 8 meters ( max height) white/gray roof building, used mostly for imparting lessons by the instructors to their trainees. A pre-strike vintage image of the building shows a thin metal roof, with a possible light concrete layer and two possible storeys underneath. The walls would be a mix of concrete, local bricks and mortar, reinforced by rough iron pillars and concrete for support as is common in the construction characteristics found in Balakot region. While viewing historic satellite imagery of the place, it’s interesting to note that this huge structure survived the 2005 Balakot earthquake which caused widespread devastation in the area. With maximum bomb impact points seen on same, this was apparently the main target for the IAF’s bombs.

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Post-strike imagery analysis has revealed that the bombs may have impacted the roof of the target at near vertical position. This was tactically planned by the IAF to achieve maximum penetration, before the bomb exploded. This may also explains the reason behind the IAF’s shallow incursions in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir, aiming to fire the SPICE 2000 well within its launch envelope to achieve the optimal vertical trajectory over the target, rather than launch it at the fringe range of 60 kilometres from Indian territory.

To Be or Not to Be…..
Let’s analyse the science of what happened post impact on 26 February at Jabba top, Balakot. If we compare the Israeli made SPICE 2000’s penetrator casing volume and weight; it is closest to the USAF’s BLU 116 penetrator used on the GBU 24/27 series 2000 lb bunker busting munition. As per information, the BLU 116 can penetrate 3.4 meters of reinforced steel (or 15 meters of earth) using a nickel cobalt steel alloy core. The Spice 2000 penetrator bomb has similar capabilities. Assuming that the SPICE 2000 hit the target at a near nadir point, it would have easily sliced through the thin metal/ light concrete roof and at least one semi concrete floor to hit the base floor with a decent foundation in the ground, which is largely made up of Bafliaz volcanic rock in the Balakot region. For the sake of calculating the impact force on a bunker class target, we will assume the SPICE 2000 is able to penetrate at least 3 meters of 500 PSI reinforced concrete ( a figure which is certainly less than the actual) and 10m of earth. We reverse calculate the average impact force on a reinforced concrete target as follows –

Average impact force = mgh ÷d

m — Weight of the penetrator (907 kg)

g — Acceleration due to gravity (9.81 m/s)

h — AGL height where the bomb transitioned from glide mode to vertical drop trajectory ( a minimal 500 meters estimated for the Balakot attack)

d — Depth of penetration

Therefore, Average impact force of SPICE 2000 on reinforced concrete is 1474 kN and on earth is 442 kN. It is noteworthy that the more a bomb penetrates into the ground, the lesser will be its average impact force. The Bafliaz volcanic rock at Balakot is composed of at least three quarters of alkaline basalt, which has a density of 2.8 g/cm cube. The approximate density value for 500 PSI reinforced concrete is 2.9 g/ cm cube, which is close to basalt. Taking the margins in error and chemistry of basalt, it can safely be assumed that after penetrating the roof and another fpossible loor, the impact value would have increased from the 442 kN on the roof and the first level to (taking an approx. 15 percent jump within margin of error) to 508 kN. However with the penetrator intact and no major loss in momentum, the same 15 % error margin can be applied to the 1474 kN standard 500 PSI reinforced concrete penetration figure, this time reducing the average impact force to 1253 kN, giving us a penetration distance of 3.5 meters in the Bafliaz rock geology at Jaba top.

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The smart fuze of the SPICE 2000 would have been set to explode after penetrating two layers as per the intelligence available before the strike. After digging deep 3.5 meters below the big hall, it would have triggered the explosion of 80 kilograms of TNT, with the Gurney equation estimating shrapnel release at nearly 1 km/ sec for an explosive equivalent of the TNT. At the same time, the expansion of the intensely hot gases at extremely high pressures in the fireball would have caused a shock wave to form, moving upward out of the dug in silo at nearly the same velocity out to an effective range of 14 meters. The main characteristic of this wave is that the pressure rises very sharply at the moving front, and falls off toward the interior region of the explosion. The variation of the pressure with distance from the centre of the fireball, at a given instant, is ideal for (instantaneously rising) shock front, which will eliminate any soft target in the region and cause significant damage to the structure and depending on the distance, will cause the structure to collapse.

Now let’s calculate the overpressure caused by the explosion of the 80 kg warhead — Overpressure in an enclosed space is determined using Weibull’s formula -

Overpressure Δp=2410(m/V) to the power 0.72

where: 2410 is a constant based on 1 bar (100 kPa; 15 psi)

M = Net explosive mass calculated using all explosive materials and their relative effectiveness

V = Volume of given area (primarily used to determine volume within an enclosed space).

We have two zones to measure the overpressure, the first inside the 3.5 m silo created by the SPICE 2000 penetrator. This gives us a value of approx. 12631 kPA for the overpressure wave within the dug up silo. This overpressure wave would have resonated through the rocky side, ejecting upward at a high velocity towards the two floors of the hall. Post expansion in the hall, the shrapnel and the overpressure wave would have killed all soft tissue targets on both the floors and penetrated the walls and roofs with deadly effect.

But was that enough to collapse the building? As per experimental data, a minimal overpressure of around 14 kPA is required to cause the collapse of a non-concrete structure. Since the volume of the building was very large with two floors inside the building, the overpressure blast wave from the 80 TNT kg warhead, had it exploded at the base of the building (not accounting for the penetration to 3.5 meters), would be in the tune of 19.28 kPA. This overpressure would have probablybrought down the building to implode and collapse. However, the explosion of the warhead 3.5 meters below the surface, with the rocky sides, walls bearing partial explosion and blast overpressure effects; will significantly dropped the overpressure value inside the compartmentalised hall. What would also be noteworthy is that the foundation and support beams would have been dug in the solid basalt rock, hence will require a significantly greater charge at core locations, than the low mass 80 kg TNT as part of this version of the SPICE 2000.

Though not basing assumptions on an empirical relationship and keeping well within the error margin, it can safely be assumed that the value of the blast overpressure wave would have fallen below 14 kPA, which — while causing extensive kinetic energy based shrapnel and overpressure pressure damage to the roof and the sides, would not have been sufficient to break open or collapse the side wall with intermixed concrete, and the main roof of the building. Also the fact that all the bombs wouldn’t have struck the target at the same time, compartmentalised damage would have occurred in the individual bomb’s sphere of influence.

Yes, there would have been significant casualties within this hall. The analysis for same is out of the purview for us.

Did the IAF SPICE 2000s strike at the target. Yes they did. This assessment is based on the science of it all, which can be studied by explosive experts for its worth. The Indian Air Force has done its job, hence let’s not overreact to anything and everything of it. One day we will know what happened below that roof.
Sowhen the Indian Force Chief says ‘We Struck the targets,’ believe me, he means serious business!

Hell For Leather for the naysayers and apologists. Its not over yet!!!

— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —

The author is an ex- fighter pilot with extensive experience on the Mirage 2000 and MiG 21 aircraft of the IAF. He has seen combat in the 1999 Indo Pak Kargil conflict and has extensively flown in all major operational theatres within the country; as well as taken part in extensive multinational exercises with foreign Air Forces. He writes on military subjects and his article on the ‘Syrian Air War’, won the best military aviation submission at the 2017 Paris Airshow.
 
We have definitely shot down 1 Boeing Insitu Scan Eagle UAV of Pak Navy.

Now the thing is , that just like other big acquisitions of Pak Armed forces after 2000 from USA, this acquisition too was to help Pak Navy in "War on Terror".

We need to get the Americans the proof and ask them to clarify things.
 
We have definitely shot down 1 Boeing Insitu Scan Eagle UAV of Pak Navy.

Now the thing is , that just like other big acquisitions of Pak Armed forces after 2000 from USA, this acquisition too was to help Pak Navy in "War on Terror".

We need to get the Americans the proof and ask them to clarify things.
$8,00,000 down the drain.
 
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We have definitely shot down 1 Boeing Insitu Scan Eagle UAV of Pak Navy.

Now the thing is , that just like other big acquisitions of Pak Armed forces after 2000 from USA, this acquisition too was to help Pak Navy in "War on Terror".

We need to get the Americans the proof and ask them to clarify things.
This is not 90s when our only source of weapons was USA and they could dictate us where to use the weapons bought from them.
Now they know we have many alternatives and if they try to dictate us they will lose a customer.
So try all you can. Nothing will happen.
 
This is not 90s when our only source of weapons was USA and they could dictate us where to use the weapons bought from them.
Now they know we have many alternatives and if they try to dictate us they will lose a customer.
So try all you can. Nothing will happen.
True .Without Pakistani purchases, the entire US MIC is doomed. Maaumujaan, yeh aap aise kab se bane? 26 Feb ke pehle ya baad mein?
 
We have definitely shot down 1 Boeing Insitu Scan Eagle UAV of Pak Navy.

Now the thing is , that just like other big acquisitions of Pak Armed forces after 2000 from USA, this acquisition too was to help Pak Navy in "War on Terror".

We need to get the Americans the proof and ask them to clarify things.


Finally my Naval Expert is back!

You have been found missing.
 
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