India - Pakistan Standoff 2019

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randomradio said:
I'm assuming we will have 4 F3R squadrons through GTG and 6 F4s through MMRCA. But the induction of the F4s could be slow. The govt expects the deliveries of just 6 squadrons to take 12 years, so you can expect us to have just 2 squadrons by 2030.

But I don't believe it will be competitive with the J-20 Mk2 or Mk3 or whatever the Chinese would have come up between 2025 and 2035. There is quite a bit of uncertainty with the J-20 and the potential J-XX coming up.

So I would suggest looking at MKI/PAK FA and Rafale/AMCA as two separate acquisitions. The IAF also does the same. They clearly differentiated between the two classes during the Rafale hearing in the SC.

And even if the Rafale F4 has the same avionics as the post-2025 PAK FA or J-20, there will clearly be a very large performance gap between the two classes even without considering the low observable design. But then, there is also potential for the PAK FA and J-20 to carry even better avionics, like photonics radar, compared to the Rafale F4 due to the reasons I mentioned before.
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I think FGFA will never match Rafale f4. Russians are still struggling with development of a working AESA where as rafale already has it. FGFA is all metal body with straight air intakes exposing engine. So it's not an stealth plane and never going to have structural stealth.
 
Shekhar Singh said:
I think FGFA will never match Rafale f4. Russians are still struggling with development of a working AESA where as rafale already has it. FGFA is all metal body with straight air intakes exposing engine. So it's not an stealth plane and never going to have structural stealth.
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Well there are different methods of stealth, most primitive & weakest be USA stealth, its based on Shaping primary & that's were its stealth finishes, vulnerable to low bands & hence systems like S400. A dent or uneven surface or dusty air, can cause havoc to its stealth characteristics. Makes is less maneuverable of all planes, need to carry payload in bay to maintain stealth, hence can carry less in stealth profile, once bay are open its a dead give away.

Rafale F4 is much advanced, it focuses on canceling radar waves, in most bands, hence it is a much better invisible plane than USA.

Russia has a altogether different method, they plan to use on FGFA Plasma stealth. Once matured including its engine, FGFA Plasma will absorb all radar waves in all bands, including low bands. Hence theoretically it be an extremely stealthy & invisible plane.

Shaping is just rudimentary form of stealth, both French & Russia method be far more sophisticated in its matured format.

I agree with @randomradio since FGFA is a lot bigger plane with a bigger engine, eventually when in matures fully around 2030, not only it will house a bigger radar, but due to bigger engine, will have more power for high Powered Lasers and the likes demanding power. A luxury not going to be available to rest of competitor planes in Mid size segments.
 
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_Anonymous_ said:
Photonics radar & improved avionics? The Russians & Chinese both have problems with the current stable of AESA radars and avionics as compared to the west and you think they'd bridge and surpass the West in a decade? Any grounds for this optimism?
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No, the Russians and Chinese are on par with the West when it comes to AESA radars. I'd dare say even India has caught up, let alone Russia and China, although we don't yet have a fully operational fighter jet radar, unlike the other two. For example, our prototype radar can already track 100 targets, which is equivalent or better than most Western radars. This was a problem for both countries the previous decade.

The Russians have developed highly competitive radars for both PAK FA and Mig-35 and are now developing a radar for Flankers. The Chinese have done the same with J-10, J-20 and J-11D, also developed one for the JF-17. All these are now basically production grade radars, and this is more or less equivalent to what the US has done. Otoh, Europe has only 1 operational radar, with only 1 other being production grade.

As for photonics, the Russians and Chinese have bigger jets, so they will happily install a rudimentary 500-600Kg radar that will easily surpass anything that's not on an equivalent Western aircraft. For example, the Rafale and Typhoon can't handle 600Kg radars obviously. So what you may see being released on the British Tempest or French FCAS in 2040, the Russians and Chinese will likely release it on the PAK FA and J-20 by 2030.

When it comes to lab work, the West is obviously ahead, but due to the size difference of aircraft, the Russians and Chinese can bring in better capability to bear much earlier. Ultimately, what you operate is what matters. I mean, what does it matter if a Russian radar weighs 100Kg more if it has an extra 20Km detection range with better data?
 
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Shekhar Singh said:
I think FGFA will never match Rafale f4. Russians are still struggling with development of a working AESA where as rafale already has it. FGFA is all metal body with straight air intakes exposing engine. So it's not an stealth plane and never going to have structural stealth.
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Would you say the J-20 is a stealth aircraft? The IAF Chief says the PAK FA is far more stealthy than the J-20.
 
A very interesting read​

Game Changer? : AIM-120-C5 AMRAAMs + Pakistani Pilots was a deadly combination of recklessness, shear Stupidy and bad name to the weapon system
SHIVA MUDGIL

The raging debate in India off late has been if PAF’s use of F-16 equipped with AIM-120-C5 AMRAAM beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) was a turning point at why IAF was not capable of engaging its framed Russian supplied R-77 BVRAAMs against the intruding jets and had to rely on its R-73 Close Combat Missile fired from an old Mig-21Bis at a close distance of less than 10km. PAF F-16s fired their AIM-120-C5 missiles at long range, probably at distance in excess of 60km which was easily dodged by India’s Ace Sukhoi-Su-30MKI fighter jet, which never got the firing clearance from the missile system, not due to any glitch but due to facts that Su-30MKI was operating at much lower altitude then the F-16s and all missile don’t work as per their advertised range . Vympel R-77 has a stated range of 100 km against a head-on target at high altitude but at low altitude, it can fire at head-on targets at 20 km, numbers change again when the target engagement is tail-chase and the range falls drastically and at high altitude, it’s just 25km and drops to 5km when the aircraft is flying at low altitude. AIM-120-C5 AMRAAM is no wonder weapon and probably they all missed their targets when they were fired by PAF F-16 from 40k ft at Su-30MKI at 15 k ft just because it was poorly utilized by the Pakistani pilots who were neither poorly trained at BVR engagements or were in a hurry to make a Kill counting in their luck factor. Most of the recorded AMRAAM kill in its History has happened in less than 30km range and closest kill recorded was 6km, According to Hellenic (Greek) Air Force reports, F-16s in multiple NATO Aerial exercise had a higher pK (probability of Kill) when the target is within a 20km range and the enemy fighters at 26 k ft. In most of the Western pilot’s account of confirmed kills, while using AMRAAM missiles, pilot preferred getting closer than shoot from further range to improve missiles pK. No Escape Zone (NEZ) of missiles like AMRAAMs have been between 15km to 25km depending on the altitudes at which the enemy fighters are flying. In the 4th Generation versus 4th Generation aircraft scenario both the Pilots are well aware of the presence of each other and without surprise elements like seen with 5th Generation fighter jets, pK of any BVRAAMs fired from long range will always be lower and according to the United States Air force simulation reports, Su-27/30 variants have high first shot survivability rate due to impressive maneuverability capabilities this jet posses. If the target is positioned outside AMRAAMs No Escape Zone (NEZ) then several factors including altitude, relative target speed, course, etc.needs to be factor in if the launch was beyond its ‘effective’ range if so then it will decrease the pK while a launch made within the envelope will give much better performance. Now, for example, Initial pK of AMRAAM variant right from the 1990s (AMRAAMs have 5 variants) had a pK of 59% based on 17 shots (10 kills) but most of the targets were engaged in No Escape Zone (NEZ), due to advancement in newer variant overhaul operational pK of AMRAAMs have reached about 80%, only due to Pilots who now have better understanding of the weapons system and are trained to engage them effectively . In Cope India 04 exercise, USAF had warned that MiG-21 and the Su-30MKI Flanker can be deadly combo in a coordinated air-to-air combat, USAF had said that upgraded Mig-21Bis due to its Low radar visibility, instantaneous turn rate, acceleration, and the helmet mounted sight combined with high-off-boresight R-73 air-to-air missiles were among the factors that made the upgraded MiG-21 a deadly adversary for the U.S. F-15s in the mock drills and this warning seems to have not reached the Pakistani F-16 pilot who rather focused on prize catch of Su-30MKI that they completely forgot about the pair of Mig-21bis which had sneaked in at close range. PAF F-16s got BVRAAM capabilities quite late and lack of constant international exposure means that they are still not trained well in exploring best envelope for the launch of the missile system and Americans might have been shaking their heads in disbelief that they even fired those missiles at that range in excess of 60kms at a target which was flying at lower altitudes . AIM-120-C5 AMRAAM has an advertised range of 100km but that’s when used at high altitude against a target which is also at the higher altitudes due to which it suffers from the same level of handicaps which was seen with R-77 that day, but C5 due to the advancement was a better missile by 10-15km that day against R-77 and if Russians had developed any later more advanced variant of R-77 it could have come handy. According to own admission of PAF, they only fired Two AMRAAMS that day and let’s assume that only two were fired, even though IAF believes close to 4-5 were fired that day. one was recovered on India side of the border damaged and was displayed to the International community in a live press conference and the second AMRAAM was fired at Mig-21Bis close combat range of less than 6-8km which is the actual No Escape Zone (NEZ) of missiles like AMRAAMs and scored a kill. So it clearly confirms that when AMRAAM fired in its No Escape Zone (NEZ) means pK of the missile is close to 100% and missile simply won’t miss but same can be attributed to R-73 which is a Medium range missile but under it’s No Escape Zone (NEZ) missile achieved a direct kill against a superior F-16 fighter jet also because it simply couldn’t shake off the missile . While Indian media would like to believe that Air-to-Air missile can achieve kill at 100km just because the manufacturer advertised on their brochure but such kills are yet to be recorded but it might happen soon due to the deployment of 5th generation fighter like F-35 in large number in various conflict zones but it will the combination of pilot training and Stealth factor which introduces the surprise element in the aerial engagement, which can’t be achieved 4.5th generation warfare in the air. Su-30MKI didn’t fire single R-77 BVRAAMs due to non-firing clearance from the weapons system but they were smart enough not to override the weapons system in the manual mode and try scoring a kill at long range. Pilots clearly knew that by doing this pK of weapons systems could have been lower than the 20% and to have higher pk, aircraft need to be closer to the target which simply didn’t happen that day due to F-16s sitting right at the fence called loc the whole time and never entered Indian air space beyond 10km that day . If Two Mig-29UPG which were dispatched from Adampur Air Force Station had arrived on the time that day, flying at high altitude equipped with the same R-77 BVRAAMs it could have knocked down more F-16s that day for sure. F-16 pilots fired a barrage of AMRAAMs at Su-30MKI outside its No Escape Zone (NEZ) and also its effective range only to draw out the Su-30MKI to come closer, a bait which was a well-set ambush which was planned just for propaganda since Su-30MKI is considered as the Ace plane of IAF. Su-30MKI Pilots didn’t fall for their challenge to fight without certain backup flying from Adampur and hats of two Mirage-2000 pilots managed to keep 8 JF-17s at the bay. Yes Induction of Dassault Rafale which will be equipped with Meteor beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile which has a No Escape Zone (NEZ) of over 60 km, it will be a Game Changer and if we had Dassault Rafale that day armed with Meteor, PAF could have lost all 3 F-16s which had breached the airspace that day. Before we criticize our own pilots and praise a weapon system which could only score at short range against a vintage aircraft like Mig-21, we should first understand how weapon systems actually work which no guess will be a tall task to ask from Indian journalists.

Source: http://****/game-changer-aim-120-c5-amraams-pakistani-pilots-was-a-deadly-combination-of-recklessness-shear-stupidy-and-bad-name-to-the-weapon-system/#more-201960
 
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Butter Chicken said:
Time to close the thread

https://twitter.com/x/status/1134452304189374464
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Something Anonymous been saying from past few months.

Main desh nahi jhukne dunga, saugandh mujhe is mitti ki.

Death of soldiers served him well electorally, now that elections are over not much benefit in tensions except drain of resources. We were stupid to actually believe that their life mattered to even armed forces forget politicians.

Since its the matter of time I would like to tell I have seen multiple satellite images some public some not released, of different time in day not one of them showed any damage to the structure, one was exceptionally crisp and clear about it. There was not even any movement or chaos or any single thing out of order to even indicate something hit that structure.

Saddest thing is even armed forces kept this lie instead of their integrity, maybe they wanted to hide their collosal failure.


However 27th engagement was little better with us getting an F16 in return of Mig21. Balakote looks like a complete failure if that compound (only compound of JeM) was target. There is also evidence of atleast 3 of bombs missing the target.

Only question is why Pakistan restricted visit to that compound? Were they asked by US or India to keep the lie alive to avoid confrontation? Very likely.

There was also no evidence of Jf17 getting shot at Multan airbase by their own air defence, but I have only one satellite image so can't say with 100% guarantee.

Both media and armed forces kept the distraction for smooth sailing of "strong leader" who didn't hesitated to lie to own public for life of soldiers. How is it different than Pakistan? There too army keep their puppet in power, anyone questioning is silenced and media lie whole day to create image of army.
 
Have you ever heard of bait and hunt? This lull is needed for Pakistan to start all over again with its game which will give us a very legitimate reason to dismember them. Remember my predictions. Mars is in the third house of Modi till mid August. Pakistan must not try anything funny or they are going to be roasted.
Lord Krishna was asked as to why he leaves his enemy Jarasangha everytime? He replied he does the job of collecting and bringing all bad souls of the world to him who can be slayed by the Lord Himself. He is working for me. Same principle applies here. All BOPs will be rebuilt and occupied again and Pakistan will again act like Jarasangha which will allow us to again kill all their soldiers manning BOPs and inflict more damage.
 
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BlackOpsIndia said:
Something Anonymous been saying from past few months.

Main desh nahi jhukne dunga, saugandh mujhe is mitti ki.

Death of soldiers served him well electorally, now that elections are over not much benefit in tensions except drain of resources. We were stupid to actually believe that their life mattered to even armed forces forget politicians.

Since its the matter of time I would like to tell I have seen multiple satellite images some public some not released, of different time in day not one of them showed any damage to the structure, one was exceptionally crisp and clear about it. There was not even any movement or chaos or any single thing out of order to even indicate something hit that structure.

Saddest thing is even armed forces kept this lie instead of their integrity, maybe they wanted to hide their collosal failure.


However 27th engagement was little better with us getting an F16 in return of Mig21. Balakote looks like a complete failure if that compound (only compound of JeM) was target. There is also evidence of atleast 3 of bombs missing the target.

Only question is why Pakistan restricted visit to that compound? Were they asked by US or India to keep the lie alive to avoid confrontation? Very likely.

There was also no evidence of Jf17 getting shot at Multan airbase by their own air defence, but I have only one satellite image so can't say with 100% guarantee.

Both media and armed forces kept the distraction for smooth sailing of "strong leader" who didn't hesitated to lie to own public for life of soldiers. How is it different than Pakistan? There too army keep their puppet in power, anyone questioning is silenced and media lie whole day to create image of army.
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Also, I think Tarbela news was also fake...and baba seems to be a BJP guy... His tweets indicates that
Screenshot_20190531-203849__01.jpg
 
Shaktimaan said:
Also, I think Tarbela news was also fake...and baba seems to be a BJP guy... His tweets indicates that
View attachment 7019
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He claimed many such incidents, unfortunately I can't get confirmation of them so I won't say he lied, he may have lied he maybe saying truth, no idea about them, can tell only what I can confirm myself.

Most RW are BJP supporters, even I am at times (not every time) so that's ok doesn't make him BJP guy, nobody want Rahul Gandhi or Akhilesh Maya ruling India.
 
Shaktimaan said:
Baba ke fans galiyaan de rhe hai babe ko 😂😂
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Yes, but they must understand that Baba is fighting the hybrid war of propaganda and winning it for India.

BlackOpsIndia said:
Expect Baba to backtrack in few minutes.
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Baba will not backtrack. We could have incresed the tensions with Pakistan to any level after 27th Feb had it not been for Abhi being shot down in the election year. Plus we had our GE2019. We needed to let the process go thru without hinderances. We maintained proactive approach on border but war was never going to be a reality. The final solution with Pakistan is a war only.

Shaktimaan said:
Aah it means PA love jihadis more than their commandoes...
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Pakistan knew that we will avenge their act and they have accepted the losses. They are looking for peace and we are giving them a chance. This is being given to them not because we trust them, but to build our own capabilities. Remember that IBGs need to go thru a full spectrum exercise to validate the concept and also for reorganising more IBGs. This will need about an year or may be more. We are not giving time to Pakistan but to ourselves.
 
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