India - Pakistan Standoff 2019

[Ashutosh]

at least your are accepting that we targeted empty slots near your brig HQ.lonewolf is not even accepting it.amraam were fired to avoid su-30s because some of our jets were busy inside your airspace.it was for protection,not for a kill.our pilots know maximum and minimum range of amraam.

Your jets, were busy for a maximum of 20 seconds, The claim by ISPR of Su 30 kill says otherwise of the intent. Guided bombs and aamram just to send a message, are bit stupid by any stretch of imagination. Leave alone a skirmish.

 

[BlackOpsIndia]

do you still believe that we missed bombs? we selected empty places near military installations.we don't want war.

do you remember what ispr said? he said we selected empty places/spots near your military installations.our goal was to create panic and not to target your army men.

Lol, you want us to believe that? Every loser after missing the target say the exact same thing. And as far as war goes your stupid agency did everything to take both nations to war by attacking army convoy and killing 40 soldiers.

Thanks to Mr. Strong in India we cowered down and let 50+ loss of life goes down in vain. Our PM even made some filmy threats to calm us down, how courageous! how strong!

do you really think that amraam missed targets?

And I took you as a serious poster!

 

[noksss]

When you get out of this TV headline catchy statements like air strike on "Nuclear Armed" nation do compare the security situation of Pakistan today and in 2013. Threats to Pakistan, the severity of these threats in 2013 and today you will get the answer.

Unless you want to make it BJP - Congress and anyone questioning anti national actions will matter to you more than words.

The same nation we attacked by airstrike (damage assessment is still doubtful) came in day light within a day to attack Nuclear Power India, didn't shy away from targeting our military installation that too with a tiny fraction of our defence budget not from today but decades of this disparity.

The same nation promised to retaliate to our attack beforehand even after killing 40 of our Jawans and on the verge of economic collapse.

It's good to have a reality check in real world than living in alternate universe where Modiji slaughtered 300 with his bare hands. We are decades ahead of Pakistan in almost everything, technology, human resources, finance, almost everything still we find more reasons and excuses to justify our pusillanimity of backing down against a collapsing tiny nation.


We have edge of over 500 Billions in just defence budget over them in past 2 decades still we are not ready. What a joke! That country is imploding from 2 decades, at almost civil war or war with others with negligible economic growth yet we are not ready to ward off few vintage F16 and some Wing Commander has to take a suicidal mission to salvage some reputation.

Yet we are busy with see how handsome is Modi, how hard he works so what we are becoming pushover by day. Please do make it about Congress and BJP I won't be responding anymore.

The answer is quite simple

1) internal security has improved to a greater extent under this regime along with #operationallout to clean the mess in Kashmir and giving a visible response to Pakistan's terror export .

2) Almost any strategic expert who analyzed Pakistan has one solution for their adventure , which is to keep attacking their Larger than life image and machoism of Pakistan army to see some change eventually .

Modi/doval have been delivering on the above 2 points which is a break from the past . Also , modi himself said in a interview that he don't expect Pakistan to change in one surgical strike so lets wait for the game to unfold instead of being pessimistic

 

[Ashutosh]

American experts have said that by the significant amount of debris left behind, shown during the press conference, it shows that the AMRAAM had missed it's target.

Logic is Paksitan uses expensive ammo just to send a message, India meanwhile recognized Bangladesh immediately after Gen. Niazi signed the surrender documents. Thats how a message is sent.

 

[Shaktimaan]

because we never wanted to kill your army men.according to us,you didn't hit the building during balakot attack so we decided not to hit any of your installations.there is no damage on our side during balakot.iaf dropped bombs on empty places purposefully.there are lots of children in every madrassa.iaf wanted to show capability just like us.balakot building hit means death of children and international pressure on india.you did a great job.we also did well.we are a small country.your air force is much bigger but we did everything in the same level as yours.

Thats why i am saying that if u didnt wanted to kill our army guys, then why u guys used guided bombs... U can use fake bombs and dropped it... That will also show ur capability...

 

[Arsalan123]

you guys ask proof of our bomb drops, even if we accept Pakistan image claim our bombs missed & hit your trees in Balakot.. but its proof atleast we dropped bombs, whats your imagery proof that Pakistan dropped bombs???
This I ask as you are hung ho on imagery - that imagery is easily available & cant be missed
Oh and I do accept your bombs fell in empty spaces - just can you prove it by Pics is the question?

And what about
India shows Radar imagery of battle, why is Pakistan scared to show the radar imagery - afraid it show your F16 going down

how can i prove it? there are lots of radar images provided by independent researchers.i accept that you dropped bombs.we also dropped bombs.your army said that we targeted their military installations.pakistan later said that we targeted empty places.locations of bombs aren't known to everyone but you can contact independent researchers for proof.

 

[LoneWolfSandeep]

how can i prove it? there are lots of radar images provided by independent researchers.i accept that you dropped bombs.we also dropped bombs.your army said that we targeted their military installations.pakistan later said that we targeted empty places.locations of bombs aren't known to everyone but you can contact independent researchers for proof.

That's shows your lack of education - air battle Radar images cant be shown by Independent researchers, other than military sources. That is AWACS etc sources inside pakistan

 

[Arsalan123]

Logic is Paksitan uses expensive ammo just to send a message, India meanwhile recognized Bangladesh immediately after Gen. Niazi signed the surrender documents. Thats how a message is sent.

hahahaha.i was expecting bangladesh and surrender story.you guys always remind us and it always gives us strength to fight even harder.bangladesh was far away.it was impossible to defend something far away from your country.

 

[Paro]

@Arsalan123 can you explain how an f16 fuel tank ending up at the mig 21 crash site. This photo was later retracted by your media houses btw.

Here a video to show how an f16 fuel tank looks like

Here is a mig21 fuel tank. and it clearly doesnt match the shape.

 

[Arsalan123]

Thats why i am saying that if u didnt wanted to kill our army guys, then why u guys used guided bombs... U can use fake bombs and dropped it... That will also show ur capability...

i don't know why we used bombs and not dummy bombs.i have no idea.

 

[BlackOpsIndia]

Thats why i am saying that if u didnt wanted to kill our army guys, then why u guys used guided bombs... U can use fake bombs and dropped it... That will also show ur capability...

He has nothing to show for on that failed raid of 27th that ended up as an embarrassment so to console himself he believe that guided bombs were used to target empty ground.

 

[Arsalan123]

@Arsalan123 can you explain how an f16 fuel tank ending up at the mig 21 crash site. This photo was later retracted by your media houses btw. View attachment 7058

Here a video to show how an f16 fuel tank looks like

Here is a mig21 fuel tank. and it clearly doesnt match the shape.
View attachment 7059

i am not expert on this subject.i have seen video of a fighter jet near this house.

 

[Shaktimaan]

He has nothing to show for on that failed raid of 27th that ended up as an embarrassment so to console himself he believe that guided bombs were used to target empty ground.

And there are some unexploded bombs laying on LOC, It clearly shows that they have to drop the bombs earlier bcz migs shows up... And then gafoora came up with comment that they wanted to show their capabilities

 

[Arsalan123]

That's shows your lack of education - air battle Radar images cant be shown by Independent researchers, other than military sources. That is AWACS etc sources inside pakistan

air battle radar images? iaf showed no radar image of balakot.all balakot building images are from independent researchers.radar images provided by iaf related to feb 27 was still images and not video.you can even see handwriting in it so it's hard to trust.they provided only few frames,not all frames.

 

[_Anonymous_]

hahahaha.i was expecting bangladesh and surrender story.you guys always remind us and it always gives us strenth to fight even harder.bangladesh was far away.it was impossible to defend something far away from your country.

Tactics for strategy. The day the PA & the rest of the Pakistani armed forces learn the difference between tactics & strategy, they'd be operating at a different level.

Without getting into much of the details of the present imbroglio, I'd touch on the salient features of the current engagement.

India has crossed the Rubicon in terms of responding to the constant cross border terrorism emnating from Pakistan. I don't think there are two views on it either here or in Pakistan. What's being debated are it's efficacy. There's a school of thought (I believe in the government & among policy makers at large including a section of the populace as represented here) which gives eminence to the principal of intent. There's another school of thought ( something which I subscribe to) which holds that intent in itself isn't enough and has to be backed by capability & outcome ( outlined here by the debate we're having on the efficacy of the strike). The intent has been demonstrated. As time goes by, capabilities will be built up and outcomes visible. Pakistan will ensure that because left to itself our establishment is lazy, inept, incompetent and complacent.

The debate here had been reduced to how many casualties have we managed to inflict. Opinions vary from a few score to 250-300 or even more. Pakistan being what it is claims a few trees and a crow. Yet Pakistan felt obliged to stage an air raid the very next day to drop a few bombs without fuses - as they claim, as a retaliatory measure for what they claim was a similar exercise by the IAF which was forced to jettison their bombs on being challenged by the PAF.

There's a section here which believes the PAF originally intended to target military installations but were thwarted from doing so by the IAF. Large sections of the public opinion are also of the view that by not retaliating we chickened out. The fact that we could have taken out the PAF jets carrying out the raid ( whether they released SOM from their side of the border within the 10 km area, agreed upon by both sides as to be free from FA and being in a technical violation of the said agreement or from behind this corridor or whether as we're led to believe they've ingressed into the Indian air space by a few couple of kms to do so, is frankly in my opinion hair splitting) but failed to do so in my opinion is a blot against our name . They carried out an air strike and that's what matters. We didn't retaliate and that's how this episode will be viewed when history is written.

Pakistan built up a beautiful narrative of responding in kind to what they claim was a failed air raid by the IAF. To add embellishment to their narrative, the Wing Commander Abhinandan episode was manna from heaven. The subsequent submarine episode also confirms Pakistani bravado of building and embellishing such a narrative for it's own internal consumption.

What's missing from the Pakistan narrative, which no Pakistani Will touch on is the talk of unleashing N weapons, which going by past pronouncements by every Tom Dick & Harry of the Pakistani establishment would be imminent , in case India opted to retaliate to a major terrorist outrage in India be it in J&K or in mainland India. That myth has been busted. Forever. However for pussilanimous future administrations ( & we're full of them including the current one ) , a precedent has been set and it will be followed. Where the Modi administration erred and lost the plot was in not declaring with proof the efficacy of these strikes which in future may induce governments of the day to claim such strikes as Retaliatory measures without offering credible evidence to the same. It also follows that future pussilanimous administrations here may deliberately stage such strikes more for tokenism than for real effect. Something which suits the PA & deep state in Pakistan fine. But as of now this is a developing story. Coming as it does so close to the elections, with the opposition raising grave doubts about the entire episode and it's efficacy, Modi would be a fool not back up his statements with credible evidence.

Now, let's touch on why are successive Indian administrations pussilanimous with respect to responding to Pakistan sponsored major terrorist outrages. Sometime back the ex NSA S.S.Menon declared that in the past three decades India has been the only nation to increase its power status manifold ( it means economic clout, military clout, diplomatic clout and the much over rated soft power), ever since we undertook the liberalisation of the economy .The only nation to outdo us has been China. The results are there for all to see. Compare Pakistan's descent into chaos these past three decades to the heights India has achieved in every metric and you'd have an insight into the thrust of his comment.

Add to that the view by some sections of our establishment of the risk of hyphenation with Pakistan, viewing them as an irrelevant irritant at worst and the apathy of the political class to the casualties such terrorist outrages cause in India and you'd have the full picture or something resembling it.

Where do we go from here? There is also a view among substantial sections of the Indian establishment that in our basket of counter measures to Pakistan sponsored terrorism, we've pretty much utilised every tool except direct military options ( this too has been exercised now but not substantially nor in full measure for we've targetted the vectors not the cause of such terror viz the PA) and covert operations. You will see much more movement on this front in the days & years to come for the deep state in Pakistan will not desist in its endeavors to inflict on India death by a 1000 cuts. Which in turn means we'd have to utilize every tool in our toolkit whether we like it or not. Please also remember that Pakistan has more fault lines than we do & deeper than we have. Add to that an economy in dire straits and all neighbors with which it shares an uneasy relationship if not an outrightly inimical one.

In that respect we ought to be grateful to Pakistan which has always confused tactics for strategy. Witness the Pathankot strike or the Uri one or the one on 26/11 or even the Kargil episode and the Indian response. One aspect of it is in the way we percieve , respond & retaliate to such outrages. The other aspect lies in bolstering our own internal security apart from building up power projection to prosecute our retribution. Perimeter security in our army, naval & air Force bases are nowhere near international standards which is what such strikes demonstrated and which is why they were conceived & executed in the first place . The process of bolstering our internal security has begun and is work in progress. Does that preclude the chances of another Pakistan sponsored strike on such targets. No. But as the months and years go by the returns on such investments for Pakistan is going to be much diminished to the point of being negligible. Our economic strength ensures that while your economic weakness forecloses many such options.


In conclusion, To the Indian membership here who often tout the example of how Israel handles it's response to major terrorist outrages, please take a close look at Israel's neighborhood. They're surrounded by moth eaten states with neither the economy nor the will and certainly not the capacity to be a modern nation state in every sense of the description of a modern nation state. It's one thing for Israeli jets to take out targets in Syria or Lebanon or even Iraq or Egypt for that matter and another for India to do the same to Pakistan. The analogy is false. Witness how the Israelis are so spooked at Iranian ambitions and how they've never directly targeted Iranian assets in Iran in spite of repeated accusations of Iranian assets striking the Israeli population and assets within Israel. A more apt analogy would be the North Korean South Korean Dynamic with Pakistan fast approaching North Korean status in every metric.

 

[Ashutosh]

hahahaha.i was expecting bangladesh and surrender story.you guys always remind us and it always gives us strenth to fight even harder.bangladesh was far away.it was impossible to defend something far away from your country.

Bangladesh was Pakistan, were your military planners so dumb that they left the 60% population of the sate loosely defended ? or was it you never considered them equals anyway? and West Pakistan was the only troo Pakistan, like Punjab toady is the only true Pakistan? East Pakistan was a huge earner for the state, what did west do, didn't even recognize the Mujib Rehman PM when he won a legitimate election? You didn't intend to defend East Pakistan or have adequate security deployed there, why ? Bengali were not Punjabi enough ?

 

[Arsalan123]

And there are some unexploded bombs laying on LOC, It clearly shows that they have to drop the bombs earlier bcz migs shows up... And then gafoora came up with comment that they wanted to show their capabilities

yeah just like you dropped bombs on trees and ran away. hahaha

 

[Shaktimaan]

air battle radar images? iaf showed no radar image of balakot.all balakot building images are from independent researchers.radar images provided by iaf related to feb 27 was still images and not video.you can even see handwriting in it so it's hard to trust.they provided only few frames,not all frames.

Dude, can you tell me which jet it is?? This Pakistani journalist tweeted this pic on that day... To me it looks like f16...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1100637114402787328

 

[Arsalan123]

Bangladesh was Pakistan, were your military planners so dumb that they left the 60% population of the sate loosely defended ? or was it you never considered them equals anyway? and West Pakistan was the only troo Pakistan, like Punjab toady is the only true Pakistan? East Pakistan was a huge earner for the state, what did west do, didn't even recognize the Mujib Rehman PM when he won a legitimate election? You didn't intend to defend East Pakistan or have adequate security deployed there, why ? Bengali were not Punjabi enough ?

you win 71 war.i don't want to go in details but i see lots of indian members talking about surrender.it gives them pleasure but it's okay.71 is long gone.this is 2019.

 

[Paro]

@Arsalan123 can you explain how an f16 fuel tank ending up at the mig 21 crash site. This photo was later retracted by your media houses btw. View attachment 7058

Here a video to show how an f16 fuel tank looks like

Here is a mig21 fuel tank. and it clearly doesnt match the shape.
View attachment 7059

i am not expert on this subject.i have seen the video of a fighter jet near this house.

@Arsalan123 So if you have seen the Video of the fighter jet near this house that means it's a different crash site from the mig 21 crash, as the video of the mig 21 crash site doesn't have a house nearby and the vegetation is also different (dry grass).

This clearly proves there are 2 crash sites which contradicts your ISPR theory of only one jet crashing in POK. Would you agree? Yes or no?