Atleast, lets not bring in religion after this. Its a double edge sword.
India - Pakistan Standoff 2019
- Thread starter nair
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Atleast, lets not bring in religion after this. Its a double edge sword.
If the Enemy is getting Hurt , and We know it
The Enemy knows it , that is enough
Public announcement are for a larger objective , Right now there is None
On the Contrary , our Bleeding Heart Left liberals will call us War Mongers
Agree, but with a big IF, that retaliation is happening.
Sushmaji requesting for her convenience doesn't promise me much.
I've seen the videos. They're... inconclusive at best.
On the topic of parachutes, is there anything that suggests the second one (if there even was a second parachute) wasn't just a MiG-21 drogue chute that deployed after the aircraft was hit? They can be deployed purposefully, as this SU-22 pilot did before overshooting the runway, or accidentally via concussive force the same as an airbag in a car can accidentally deploy.
The second chute doesn't have to be a pilot and people remembering otherwise doesn't indicate they're being deceptive. People sometimes just misremember or mis-ID things. That's why witness testimonials are considered the lowest form of evidence. There's too much potential for bias, doctoring, deliberate falsifications or mis-remembrances.
As a concerned 3rd party watching with interest I can say that I believe neither sides viewpoint. Even on this thread we see multiple different views, counter-views and conclusions. No one can get the story right, let alone conclusively say "this is how it happened".
I am not getting into this Debate again
Not only IAF but Ex IAF and Ex Army guys
who have No reason to Support the version of IAF , and have seen the evidence , have supported IAF's version of events
Most importantly , do you think CIA is unable to find the truth
They know everything that happens in Pakistan
Your Information is Incomplete and yet you
Pontificate like a Guru
First Quereshi , Pak FM made a Request to
Overfly India to go to SL , India ACCEPTED it
Bomb blasts happened in SL and his trip
Was cancelled
So they agreeing to our request was nothing but a Reciprocal Gesture , which happened
At a later date anyway
Even now if Pak FM or any one else wants to fly over India , it would be nothing new
We allowed them much before Sushma' s flight
You have no debate, just a narrative. One of many. One of many with unsupported claims. Share or demonstrate, don't claim and walk and ignore challenges. You, if you're right, should be able to sway non-believers if you present evidence that is conclusive... right? So if you're right, why are we still continuing with this discussion?
Let them come tell us themselves. No need for third party accounts. I don't support their views through you and can't accept them as proxy-proof of your claims. They too need to validate their standpoint, same as anyone else. But so far no one has and thus you see this discussion/debate/argument has continued for 450+ pages. If all we needed was someone else's views to say for certain what happened we'd have settled this long ago.
Some unnamed "Ex Army guys" or "Ex IAF" is just appeal to authority BS.
You don't know what the CIA knows, so what's it matter if they can or can't find the truth? They wont tell you or anyone else a damn thing
. Don't speak for the CIA, it's lazy. Don't use the CIA as proof, it's lazy too. They're an intelligence organization, not a media outlet. They aren't sharing their findings with any of us and we can't validate their findings even if they did.
From : In PAF lies & subterfuge, an F-16 tail number & a PAF pilot — both hidden to serve a mythI've seen the videos. They're... inconclusive at best.
On the topic of parachutes, is there anything that suggests the second one (if there even was a second parachute) wasn't just a MiG-21 drogue chute that deployed after the aircraft was hit? They can be deployed purposefully, as this SU-22 pilot did before overshooting the runway, or accidentally via concussive force the same as an airbag in a car can accidentally deploy.
The second chute doesn't have to be a pilot and people remembering otherwise doesn't indicate they're being deceptive. People sometimes just misremember or mis-ID things. That's why witness testimonials are considered the lowest form of evidence. There's too much potential for bias, doctoring, deliberate falsifications or mis-remembrances.
As a concerned 3rd party watching with interest I can say that I believe neither side's viewpoint. Even on this thread we see multiple different views, counter-views and conclusions. No one can get the story right, let alone conclusively say "this is how it happened".
Many witnesses claim to have seen a parachute with colours of the Indian flag — A very significant detail, which emerged in many videos on the social media. On closer analysis, a startling fact emerges — the colour of the C-9 parachute on the PAF F-16’s ACES ejection seat has four colours — white, orange, jungle green and sandy brown — eaily anyone taking a look at the same will assume it to be an Indian parachute due its uncanny resemblence to the Indian flag.
In all probability, just like they tried to lynch Abhinandan when he landed — the POK civilians have clearly mistaken the F-16 parachute to be an Indian and lynched the possibly injured PAF pilot. Due to extreme injuries, the PAF pillot would have been taken to the Pak Army CMH as briefed by the Maj Gen Ghafoor to all, where he would have passed away die to the wounds sustained. Eyewitness accounts from POK civilians also confirm that the second pilot was taken to a Pak army hospital.
A quick run of an image and size interpolation software comparing the reference C-9 image from above and the image taken from a Pakistani video grab of a parachute landing in the area throws up some interesting results — confirming the view that a F-16 parachute did land near the same time that Abhinandan ejected .
From : In PAF lies & subterfuge, an F-16 tail number & a PAF pilot — both hidden to serve a myth
Many witnesses claim to have seen a parachute with colours of the Indian flag — A very significant detail, which emerged in many videos on the social media. On closer analysis, a startling fact emerges — the colour of the C-9 parachute on the PAF F-16’s ACES ejection seat has four colours — white, orange, jungle green and sandy brown — eaily anyone taking a look at the same will assume it to be an Indian parachute due its uncanny resemblence to the Indian flag.
In all probability, just like they tried to lynch Abhinandan when he landed — the POK civilians have clearly mistaken the F-16 parachute to be an Indian and lynched the possibly injured PAF pilot. Due to extreme injuries, the PAF pillot would have been taken to the Pak Army CMH as briefed by the Maj Gen Ghafoor to all, where he would have passed away die to the wounds sustained. Eyewitness accounts from POK civilians also confirm that the second pilot was taken to a Pak army hospital.
A quick run of an image and size interpolation software comparing the reference C-9 image from above and the image taken from a Pakistani video grab of a parachute landing in the area throws up some interesting results — confirming the view that a F-16 parachute did land near the same time that Abhinandan ejected .
Image interpolation of the reference C-9 image with the screengrab image of a parachute landing suspected to be post the F-16 shoot down
A welcome start. Now what's the ejection chute on an Indian MiG-21 look like? The drogue chute too. Both deployed, from short and long-range viewing (whether atmospheric conditions distort color). High and low altitude (where the chute's shape will be either fully deployed or become distorted against denser air near ground.
As far as "many witnesses" are concerned, do we have proof or first hand accounts from them? Or second hand through journalists from 3rd parties? Or are these anecdotes?
More evidence, from either side.
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Not like that.
Eyewitnesses have mentioned 3 chutes. For one, let us assume that only 1 plane was downed. A Mig 21
Scenario 1 - Only 1 plane downed.
India has admitted to 1 plane. A Mig-21. It has 1 pilot. We accepted. Technically discussion should have ended here. But,
a. Pakistani PM is on record in Parliament stating 2 planes being downed.
b. The DGISPR said, 2 planes were downed. 1 pilot in custody. Another 1 pilot taken to hospital.
c. Eyewitness said, 3 parachutes.
d. DGISPR backtracks a day later. Says only 1 plane downed.
Scenario 2 - Mig 21 and Sukhoi were shot down
Pakistan claimed 2 planes. A Mig 21 and Su-30 MKI. Now, where are the other 2 pilots? All Su-30 MKIs fly with 1 pilot and 1 WSO. The only other Indian plane possible is the Mirage 2000. But that variant is a training variant. So where are the pilots of the downed Su-30? It should be easy for the Pakistanis to bust our lie, if a Sukhoi has indeed been shot down.
Even the body of the dead pilot will put to rest if there are lies being spread by the IAF. Just like, the foreign journalists were taken to Balakot 44 days after the strike and even then not to the spot of the bombing. So where is the dead pilot/s?
Scenario 3 - 1 IAF and 1 PAF plane shot down.
No issue in the IAF plane. We have admitted to it being shot down. But why is it that, a Pakistani PM said in Parliament that 2 planes were shot down. Why did DG ISPR say 2 planes and 1 pilot in hospital? And then retract the next day? Why did villagers say, they captured a pilot and another was taken away to the hospital and that they saw 3 parachutes? These are villagers on the Pakistani side of the LoC. These are available on youtube. If you can understand, we can provide the links. But, they are neither English nor Norwegian/Sami.
Hence, most probable scenarios would be 1 and 3.
1 is less probable, because villagers on the scene said 3 parachutes and that pilots landed on 2 separate locations. If scenario 3, there is only 1 plane in the Pakistani arsenal which was active on that day and could fly with 2 personnel. An F-16.
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Sushma might have had a kidney transplant... But requesting Pakistan to open airspace for her convenience.. when ordinary indians take the long route is not done.. If it was her health that had to be considered..then India could have sent a junior minister..
Its DGISPR who claim they have 3 than 2 Indian pilots in their custody after one month they accept they have only one, if this is not lying i don't know what lying is.
DGISPR claim that they didn't used F-16 on 27th Feb, later they told it doesn't matter what machine they used, if this is not lying i don't know what lying is.
IAF story is consistent, it's right or wrong i don't know but i will be believe who's story don't change with every tweet.
I dont know why no body's asking Ghafoor about the lies is spewing? He changes his story everyday and we believe it yet people are saying IAF lied when it is consistent on its narrative
DGISPR just bluffed that due to fog of war he was given wrong information and we all happily accepted it , look that Ghafoor didnt get promoted ,they are pissed with him and know that they did lie , Shot down Su30 narrative to compensate for F16 and nothing else
They didnt even give an iota of proof of shooting down Su30 , we gave so many including radar images , why nobody is asking PAF to prove that they did shoot Su30?
DGISPR just bluffed that due to fog of war he was given wrong information and we all happily accepted it , look that Ghafoor didnt get promoted ,they are pissed with him and know that they did lie , Shot down Su30 narrative to compensate for F16 and nothing else
They didnt even give an iota of proof of shooting down Su30 , we gave so many including radar images , why nobody is asking PAF to prove that they did shoot Su30?
Abhi got released, why did Pak do that?
Optics for peace loving Imran?
As of now we got nothing to show...
Like previous war, truth will be out few years down the line..
No need to debate impossible thing...
Unless Iaf / GoI intends to release spice 2000 cam view / Pak missing air man / F16 is proved beyond doubt.
Optics for peace loving Imran?
As of now we got nothing to show...
Like previous war, truth will be out few years down the line..
No need to debate impossible thing...
Unless Iaf / GoI intends to release spice 2000 cam view / Pak missing air man / F16 is proved beyond doubt.
Pak FM Qureshi FIRST
made a Request to
Overfly India to go to SL , India ACCEPTED it
Bomb blasts happened in SL and his trip
Was cancelled
So they agreeing to our request was nothing but a Reciprocal Gesture , which happened
At a later date anyway
Even now if Pak FM or any one else wants to fly over India , it would be nothing new
We allowed them much before
We requested for Sushma' s flight
i requested him and this is proof.sir there is no multan incident and there is no tarbela incident.everything is fine here.
there is still no proof of an f-16 hit.there was a second jet but we still not sure about f-16.initial reports said that americans counted f-16 near sargodha air base and no plane was missing.later pentagon denied any count.iaf radar data are still images and not video.i know iaf was tracking f-16 but why it was vanished from radar is a mystery.iaf didn't show more frames after vanishing of jet.any fighter jet can use mountains to it's advantage.it's possible that f-16 hide itself behind a mountain and that's why vanished from radar.we know there was a second jet.if it's our f-16,we will accept it but sometime later.mig-21 encountered paf at the later stage of fight and not the beginning.we intruded deep and nobody knows what we were doing in your airspace.why your own forces hit your own helicopter is also a mystery.clearly we managed to achieve our goals but at later stage,we might lost one f-16.we will surely know the truth.
India granted permission for Pakistan Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi’s aircraft to fly over the country for his visit to Male and Colombo for May4 flight, a gesture that would be reciprocated by Pakistan for External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj a fortnight later on May 22/23.
Source: India gave right of passage to Pakistan Minister’s plane
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