India - Pakistan Standoff 2019

[panzerdad]

You seem to be too obsessed with your idea, without paying attention to what the other replied. I told you already that Bhagvat Geeta has nothing to do with the material world, Mahabharat is. Bhagvat Geeta is a path to spiritual enlightenment.

When you have nothing concrete to reply with, this is the level you stoop down to. Well portrayed your character.

You seem to have no understanding of my reply, and yet you feel youre magnanimous enough to question others character ?
This is why i asked you to loop the jock in, your capabilities and ego have failed you, others have already used a simple google search,
but look how the mighty have fallen to dirt, carry on my friend, the black hole has much room for more of your hubris

 

[screambowl]

Pakistan's story always has been - No terror camps in Pakistan. They claimed India bombed their forest land. Now India does not have any terror camps of its own so who do they hit? They chose the easiest targets close to the LoC. If you actually tone down the rhetoric and try to figure things out, its not that hard. Really.

and my point is what if India had the input that they will come next morning? Did India allow them to assemble and strike Indian bases?

And If there was no input this means that they fooled us before striking

If you think Imran Khan can fire the ISI Chief, you are connected to the best suppliers. My compliments.

You did not get my point, I said, transferred to a different department, not fired. That happens under these circumstances,
1) Immi wants control over ISI,
2) Immi is protecting him because ISI got inputs that India will hunt him aswell,
3) It's a ploy to show to the world that Immi is actually trying to bring peace.

This time there was no war. This whole thing just blew up in everyone's faces. The public chickened out and the Govt. knew it could not press its luck.

It was a war but a hybrid war for which India is not ready and pakistan has 10+ years of experience in it.

 

[The Deterrent]

So if 6 bombs were dropped, over 24 different checks were done. You suggesting all 24 of them failed?

This is a well framed question, allow me to answer it. Kindly note that the theory here is not that the SPICE-2000s hit the wrong GPS-coordinates, rather they were fed in the wrong coordinates (elevation data, to be precise), leading them to pass over the hill-top and continue until they met the adjacent 'valley'.

There are 4 protocols for a SPice 2000 strike
1) End point GPS location

1) Correct, when launched in GPS-guidance mode, the GPS-coordinates have to be provided. During the entire glide, the SPICE kit follows the pre-computed trajectory (fed in by the mission computer), until it hits the desired GPS-coordinates.

2) Image comparison between the images loaded into the bombs by RAW agents and the feed that compares it before strike

2) Well as it has been speculated, the visibility that night was very poor. Although the IIR-seeker is usually resilient to this factor, it is quite possible that DSMAC could not be used at all.

3) Way point navigation - during multiple stages of the flight the bomb checks heading, velocity and altitude to adjust the glide path

3) Correct, the SPICE (or any other SOW for that matter) uses way point navigation to continue following the trajectory. I believe that the trajectory was accurately followed, there is no doubt in that. Otherwise they would have missed by kilometers.

4) Release protocol- the computers on board the mirage will allow the bomb to be released only if the aircraft has reached an altitude and position that can carry out the strike with precision

4) Correct, unless the launching aircraft has reached the desired altitude and location, the mission computer will not authorize the release of the SOW. Which is why I don't believe the Pakistani narrative that PAF had 'thwarted' the IAF strike.

 

[halabol]

There is absolutely no evidence of balakot strikes.satellites have failed to see the impact on buildings.if you guys have any proof,kindly share

Are you sure there is no evidence?, at the best you can claim no evidence presented till now.
even i know no amount of evidence can satisfy you.
even if IAF has release any video you can always claims it fake or some other excuse.
Have you asked the question to yourself, why need more than one month to allow to visit that place if nothing happened?

 

[screambowl]

Why didn't our IAF personal calculate the denger before?

1 )Answer in other terms is simple, India did expect a strike but not the very next morning because, Pakistan camouflaged their ground movements at their airbases so that no intel is leaked out to India.
2) Or possibly India does not have assets in PAF, and ISI has assets in IAF that's why they knew India is not expecting a strike. Some one in India might have tipped them this. So PAF sent it's planes next morning.

 

[rockstarIN]

1 )Answer in other terms is simple, India did expect a strike but not the very next morning because, Pakistan camouflaged their ground movements at their airbases so that no intel is leaked out to India.
2) Or possibly India does not have assets in PAF, and ISI has assets in IAF that's why they knew India is not expecting a strike. Some one in India might have tipped them this. So PAF sent it's planes next morning.

We expected retaliation for sure else, there won't be 2 MKIs and 2 M2000 were on petrol and most probably Migs were on high alert( taking off within 2-4 minutes) for 3 bases. What went wrong was the anticipation of 24 jets attacking together. We should have more pro active when we got the news of NOTAM and send two MKIs each away from LOC/Border at punjab & Kashmir area at higher altitude more than 40k feet who can fire first salvos.

 

[screambowl]

Sir, all main operational bases have stocks of aerial munitions, including AAMs and PGMs.

You are correct but there must have been something which Indian counterpart missed to catch. For example, oil supply, preparations to transport other aircrafts to forward bases in case India retaliated, cancellation of leave , pilling up emergency stock, taxi of aircrafts on ground, etc etc...

 

[HariPrasad]

I agree, the Phalcon is a very capable system. Other than that you are entitled to your opinion.
A slight correction though, the drop tank does not belong to the F-16. Kindly go through this analysis of the debris:
IN DEPTH: Indian Plane Shot Down Over Pakistan in February - Medium


Sir, I would encourage you to point out the inaccuracies in my narrative. You have absolutely no obligation to take me seriously, so please feel free to disagree.


Sir, I only mentioned 2x H-4s and 4x Mk-83 REKs launched by PAF, i.e. 6x SOWs in total.
Again, I clearly described that PAF has only circumstantial evidence of the unconfirmed kill.
Honestly, the reporters thing is the weakest argument for Indians trying to prove that Balakot strikes hit something. Satellite imagery is the best source of open source BDA, followed by social media...given that the journalism from the target area is heavily censored.

Please don't drown, this forum needs you.


Sir, all main operational bases have stocks of aerial munitions, including AAMs and PGMs.


Sir, its only because Sameer Joshi's analysis is being spread around as if it is the official version from IAF. As per official statements, IAF merely states that "we hit what we intended to, and got the effect that we needed", or "the proof of Balakot strikes is blowing in the wind". I'm not sure what to make of these statements. If you're aware of any other official IAF statements claiming use of penetration munitions etc, I'd be glad to know.

Regarding H-4s (aka Denel Raptor-II, official range 120km), the SFM (solid-fuel motor aka booster) assemblies of 2x H-4s were found in Pakistani villages of Pind Aziz (27km from LoC, 38km from Naushera, 60km from Rajouri) and Machia (17km from LoC, 32km from Narian, 54km from Rajouri). Typically the boosters are jettisoned when the SOW has attained the required altitude and speed to begin the glide. Adding the distance flown in boost-phase (unknown), we can fairly conclude that the 2x H-4s were launched from deep within Pakistani airspace. Therefore I don't believe that any of those H-4s were 'dropped in haste'.


That is a fair argument.


Interesting observations.


Will I be correct to assume that you'd rather stick to the official statements, than speculation by an ex-IAF pilot claiming to have been told all this by IAF sources?


Sir, if I recall correctly, IAF never official claimed that they used "penetrators". Please feel free to correct me.
Regarding SPICE-2000's compatibility, it is compatible with commonly used 2000lbs general-purpose bombs. Unless of course IAF does not have 2000lbs general-purpose bombs, in which case, I rest my case.


I'm failing to understand how. Could you elaborate?

Very nice pointwise reply though I disagree with few things.

 

[noksss]

Pakistan did not fit into your so called fancy term known as escalation matrix unfortunately, Lol. War is fought on the basis of ground reports not on the basis of bookish terms. India failed to get info out of PAF HQ on what they were upto and missed the bus. India was really not prepared for the PAF response at all, because Indian officials failed to assess it. And that's the reality. But some how IAF managed to prevent the devastation



Did India stop the war in kargil when Nachiketa was caught? NO! Reason, ISI sponsered media was not allowed to puke and build propaganda. And Neither Govt of India demanded them to return Abhinandan. India was keen to strike them.
That's why I say, India has got ISI donkeys every where.

And FYI, Pak has a new ISI chief, as Asif Munir's tenure was cut short by Immi after meeting Modi. that means ISI was upto something and responsible for Pulwama and other sort of things in India. Other wise why would only he be transferred to other department. This never happened in the history of Pakistan.



My point is, why the logistic movement of PAF and intelligence was not at India's disposal on the evening of 26th Feb. That was my reply to Vstol, for saying India could not assess Pakistan's move.
.

So , ISI donkeys are everywhere in India but still failed to get the logistic movement of IAF before bombing balakot ?? . As per ur logic that makes them even more incompetent

 

[screambowl]

So , ISI donkeys are everywhere in India but still failed to get the logistic movement of IAF before bombing balakot ?? . As per ur logic that makes them even more incompetent

Ab yaar itney bhi gaye guzrey nahi hai hum that we don't know how to prepare for covert ops. There is a reason why this air raid was covert.

 

[Deathstar]

That fool Sahid Raza is claiming that 2nd Indian pilot died in hospital and his remains handed over to the Indian government immediately , wtf?Ghafoor said they had only one pilot and 3,2 was a mistake in the fog of war
Some members on PDF are claiming that they handed over the body via Red Cross @halabol @noksss @HariPrasad

 

[noksss]

Ab yaar itney bhi gaye guzrey nahi hai hum that we don't know how to prepare for covert ops. There is a reason why this air raid was covert.

Good to see you realizing that ISI is not filled with superhero's and Indian intelligence with incompetent's .

 

[Freezerdam]

1 )Answer in other terms is simple, India did expect a strike but not the very next morning because, Pakistan camouflaged their ground movements at their airbases so that no intel is leaked out to India.
2) Or possibly India does not have assets in PAF, and ISI has assets in IAF that's why they knew India is not expecting a strike. Some one in India might have tipped them this. So PAF sent it's planes next morning.

It is a netcentric warfare buddy,They were observing whole PAF assets by different means but they failed to analyse it.From 8:30am onwards Paf were lunching their fighters in the air one by one.They targeted where our Caps strength was minimum and also to down su 30s.

 

[Cole_phelps]

This is a well framed question, allow me to answer it. Kindly note that the theory here is not that the SPICE-2000s hit the wrong GPS-coordinates, rather they were fed in the wrong coordinates (elevation data, to be precise), leading them to pass over the hill-top and continue until they met the adjacent 'valley'.

You sure about that? And while you are at it, maybe we did even more elementary mistake and bombed the wrong country.

 

[Sathya]

I agree, the Phalcon is a very capable system. Other than that you are entitled to your opinion.
A slight correction though, the drop tank does not belong to the F-16. Kindly go through this analysis of the debris:
IN DEPTH: Indian Plane Shot Down Over Pakistan in February - Medium


Sir, I would encourage you to point out the inaccuracies in my narrative. You have absolutely no obligation to take me seriously, so please feel free to disagree.


Sir, I only mentioned 2x H-4s and 4x Mk-83 REKs launched by PAF, i.e. 6x SOWs in total.
Again, I clearly described that PAF has only circumstantial evidence of the unconfirmed kill.
Honestly, the reporters thing is the weakest argument for Indians trying to prove that Balakot strikes hit something. Satellite imagery is the best source of open source BDA, followed by social media...given that the journalism from the target area is heavily censored.

Please don't drown, this forum needs you.


Sir, all main operational bases have stocks of aerial munitions, including AAMs and PGMs.


Sir, its only because Sameer Joshi's analysis is being spread around as if it is the official version from IAF. As per official statements, IAF merely states that "we hit what we intended to, and got the effect that we needed", or "the proof of Balakot strikes is blowing in the wind". I'm not sure what to make of these statements. If you're aware of any other official IAF statements claiming use of penetration munitions etc, I'd be glad to know.

Regarding H-4s (aka Denel Raptor-II, official range 120km), the SFM (solid-fuel motor aka booster) assemblies of 2x H-4s were found in Pakistani villages of Pind Aziz (27km from LoC, 38km from Naushera, 60km from Rajouri) and Machia (17km from LoC, 32km from Narian, 54km from Rajouri). Typically the boosters are jettisoned when the SOW has attained the required altitude and speed to begin the glide. Adding the distance flown in boost-phase (unknown), we can fairly conclude that the 2x H-4s were launched from deep within Pakistani airspace. Therefore I don't believe that any of those H-4s were 'dropped in haste'.


That is a fair argument.


Interesting observations.


Will I be correct to assume that you'd rather stick to the official statements, than speculation by an ex-IAF pilot claiming to have been told all this by IAF sources?


Sir, if I recall correctly, IAF never official claimed that they used "penetrators". Please feel free to correct me.
Regarding SPICE-2000's compatibility, it is compatible with commonly used 2000lbs general-purpose bombs. Unless of course IAF does not have 2000lbs general-purpose bombs, in which case, I rest my case.


I'm failing to understand how. Could you elaborate?

Not much info is shared about drop tanks.
Other than that location of debris.

 

[screambowl]

You sure about that? And while you are at it, maybe we did even more elementary mistake and bombed the wrong country.

Don't you know Indian airforce bombed future China that day. Finally the CPEC corridor runs very close to Balakot

 

[fyodor]

THIS THREAD SHOULD BE CLOSED NOW.

 

[Sathya]

THIS THREAD SHOULD BE CLOSED NOW.

Pak airspace itself isn't open yet..

What's the urgency for us?

 

[Arsalan123]

Exclusive: 'We Didn't Miss' - Air Force Pilots Who Flew Balakot Mission

One of the pilots said he had flown approximately eight kilometres across the line of control to get into a position to fire the Spice bomb

GWALIOR: HIGHLIGHTS


"We smoked a lot of cigarettes before the mission," says the young Squadron Leader who was one among the group of pilots who struck the Jaish-e-Mohammad terror training facility near Balakot in Pakistan in February. "We kept pacing up and down once we knew what our mission was."

The Squadron Leader was one among two Mirage 2000 fighter pilots who NDTV spoke to on their role in the attack, the first Indian Air Force assault on a target inside Pakistan since the 1971 war.

NDTV has been requested not to reveal the names of either of the two pilots who we spoke to.

"The entire operation took approximately two-and-a-half hours," says the second Squadron Leader. Both pilots launched Spice 2000 satellite-guided bombs at the target.

On February 26, the Indian Air Force (IAF) had deployed 12 Mirage 2000 jets, which were meant to take out the terrorist facility by firing two separate types of Israeli munitions - the Spice 2000, designed to penetrate deep inside the structures which were targeted and the Crystal Maze, meant to send back a video feed of the targets as it struck them. Used in conjunction, the weapons were meant to obliterate the entire facility, while providing the IAF with video evidence of the strike. This was meant to showcase India's resolve in taking on those that it says were responsible for the Pulwama terror attack in February in which 40 Central Reserve Police Force soldiers were killed.


A low cloud base prevented the IAF from launching the Crystal Maze weapons on the day of the attacks though the fighters deployed did manage to launch five of the six Spice 2000 bombs they were armed with.

"I have no doubt that the Spice 2000 hit its target," says the second Mirage pilot when asked about the controversy on the effectiveness of the IAF strikes. Images released by satellite imaging company DigitalGlobe which were showcased on several international sites showed all the structures at the Jaish camp intact despite the IAF strike. "The resolution of the satellite imagery which was shown is nowhere close to what is needed to accurately show the ingress points of the weapon" says one of the pilots. "The Spice 2000 is not a weapon that misses. There may have been efforts at concealing the damage caused on the roofs of the buildings."

The IAF has consistently maintained that the Spice 2000 weapon it used was designed to penetrate to a certain depth before exploding. The variant of the bomb used was meant to take out human targets without necessarily destroying buildings. NDTV has also been shown an ultra-high resolution image of one of the targets showing three precise holes on the roof of one of the main structures targets. Foreign diplomats and journalists who were taken to the site by Pakistani authorities forty three days after the attack were not shown this building thought to be a hostel for terrorist recruits.

Asked whether those two hours during the mission were the longest in his career, one of the two pilots said, ''It went by in a flash because there was so much to do." One of the big concerns of the IAF attack formation was the distinct possibility of a Pakistani response. Though the two pilots NDTV spoke to did not pick up a Pakistani interceptor on their radars, they were alerted to the presence of at least one Pakistani jet flying towards the Indian formation by the airborne warning aircraft coordinating the IAF's attack. By then, they had launched their weapons and were safely out of harm's way. "The Spice 2000 is a fire and forget weapon. You don't need to loiter in the area while it flies towards its target," said one pilot.
@Arsalan123 @vstol Jockey

Great achievement.smoke more before each mission and miss more targets.

 

[Arsalan123]

There are 4 protocols for a SPice 2000 strike

1) End point GPS location
2) Image comparison between the images loaded into the bombs by RAW agents and the feed that compares it before strike
3) Way point navigation - during multiple stages of the flight the bomb checks heading, velocity and altitude to adjust the glide path
4) Release protocol- the computers on board the mirage will allow the bomb to be released only if the aircraft has reached an altitude and position that can carry out the strike with precision

So if 6 bombs were dropped, over 24 different checks were done. You suggesting all 24 of them failed?

All bombs were dropped without impact on building.where are the impact holes?