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Well pakistan can do everything that is possible but not war.we aren't fools.we know India is ready to attack us.we are trying to reset our relations with a number of countries.we know UN and icj are failed communities.they can't implement anything.we have to do things in our own way but this is not the right time to do anything stupid.we have seen that India is not sincere when it comes to Kashmir dispute.this is the same India who still call this Kashmir problem bilateral.whatever happened is past.i hope we learn lessons from indian aggressive approach.

Excellency, please understand the mandate of the organization before you reach out. ICJ has no locus standi on Kashmir. Before you go to UN, try to read the UN resolution that virtually your entire country quotes but no one including your leadership bothers to read.

You want Saudis to help you, OIC to help you, Malaysia to help you, Iran to help you, UN to help you, ICJ to help you, China to help you, P5 to help you, EU to help you. But when will you help yourselves?
 
I think you underestimate the Mongols or haven't taken into account how the Russian Empire followed by their successor state the SU pacified Central Asia, ironically the successor state of Turco Mongols. The Russian Empire followed by SU followed by Russia in the Caucasus .Please take a look at how the Chinese have clinically gone about their task in Tibet & now in Xinjiang. Then there's the Communist insurgency in Malaya. The Spanish state in Catalan. The British in Ireland. The list is endless .


That era is gone.
 
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Well pakistan can do everything that is possible but not war.we aren't fools.we know India is ready to attack us.we are trying to reset our relations with a number of countries.we know UN and icj are failed communities.they can't implement anything.we have to do things in our own way but this is not the right time to do anything stupid.we have seen that India is not sincere when it comes to Kashmir dispute.this is the same India who still call this Kashmir problem bilateral.whatever happened is past.i hope we learn lessons from indian aggressive approach.

After 2015, there was no dispute. Only one fact - Pakistan needs to vacate PoJ&K

Unfortunately, on the other forum, people do not have the brains or the rationale to be able to see the writing on the wall. Discussed all what is panning out in 2016 :)

Cheers.
 
The moment the latter happens, irrespective of who it is, you'd see a detente with the US.
Russia sees itself as part of European civilization spanning both Europe and Asia. If not for US opposition, Russia would have naturally been much closer to Europe than China. Irrespective of Putin, any future detente between US and Russia, would depend on the US not continuing to undermine Russia's position in its neighborhood, and relinquishing any ambition to cut Russia down to size, and render it an impotent player on the Eurasian chessboard...
 
I think you underestimate the Mongols or haven't taken into account how the Russian Empire followed by their successor state the SU pacified Central Asia, ironically the successor state of Turco Mongols. The Russian Empire followed by SU followed by Russia in the Caucasus .Please take a look at how the Chinese have clinically gone about their task in Tibet & now in Xinjiang. Then there's the Communist insurgency in Malaya. The Spanish state in Catalan. The British in Ireland. The list is endless .
And to add.. the Sinhalese termination of Tamil insurgency by brute military force...
 
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That era is gone.
The Russians in Chechnya episode isn't even 30 years old in its inception. How old is the episode of the Chinese in Tibet or Xinjiang? What exactly are we seeing in Syria or Iraq?
Asia is full of half made societies and unsettled borders. There are only so many places the West can thump it's neo Bible of human rights on. Where they themselves have created or sustained many of those problems.
 
The key to how close Russia is to the Chinese is dependant on just one factor or make that 2 . Putin's continuation in office or rather it's duration & who replaces him . The moment the latter happens, irrespective of who it is, you'd see a detente with the US. Unless you're suggesting Putin's going to continue in office till 2100. Once Russia resets it's ties to the US & by extension with the Western world, do you seriously believe they'd be enthralled by China. Isn't it more the case of two entities hand in hand because they're confronted by a common enemy?

Russia's perceived closeness has nothing to do with Putin.

Russia's being pressured from all sides, NATO and the Middle East, they do not want a Chinese threat coming up behind them at this time. Similarly, the Chinese do not want a Russia threat when they are busy in East Asia and the SCS. There's also the border dispute with India. The oil and gas business is the bonus that cements their partnership.

Until either country deals with their immediate problems first, they are not going to go against each other.

So how long do you think it will take China to deal with SCS, India and E Asia, or Russia to deal with NATO and ME?

Of course, given enough time, China will feel like it can manage its current crop of problems and deal with Russia also, but that time, according to China itself, is 2048.

Besides, I mentioned our primary objective is regaining PoK. It's only once we are ensconced there that we can think of what may follow. Seizing the Wakhan for access to CAR isn't am imperative. Seizing the Wakhan is an imperative only to cut China's reach into the larger CAR and west Asia including the IOR. Once we are in PoK, the Wakhan may well see pitched battles between the Taliban and the ANA / NA to prevent the Chinese utilising the Wakhan for its own advantage. As it is, they seem to have established a base there.

Taking PoK is not going to affect India-Russia relations at all. I'm referring to taking Wakhan.

Any attempt to fragment Pakistan depends more on the state of their economy. That's the sole criterion. For I believe whatever the state of their economy, they'd never cease interference in Kashmir or Afghanistan. They'd keep piling the agony in both places. We'd have plenty in the near term future to serve as casus belli in case we need a pretext or as usual, we can calibrate our response to each outrage, build up our economy, prepare a case for war and prosecute it when we are in a position to do so, which in your estimate would be 2030 & which in my estimate is too far. I'm looking more at 2023-24.

As per @Falcon 's assessment, we already are in a position to initiate hostliities with Pakistan and launch our campaign to retake PoK. This also happens to be corroborated by other senior ex IA personnel in articles in the public domain.
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When it comes to only dealing with PoJK, why 2023-24, we can do it today. Fragmenting Pakistan, breaking the Durand Line, taking Wakhan... all these cannot be done at this time. Nobody wants a powerful India. The problem is not Pakistan, it's all of Pakistan's future 'friends' and 'allies'. The West do not want this problem gone, they want India to be constrained by Pakistan forever. The same with China. It's all about what comes after Pakistan is fragmented that we cannot handle.

The American plan is to use India to contain China. And while they are working on a plan to deal with China, they want Pakistan to create problems for India. After China's been dealt with, it's India's turn.

With our current abilities, diplomatic, economic and military, taking PoJK is not a problem. Pakistan's going to have to give us the excuse though, so we just have to keep pushing them until they do.
 
Have you ever heard of shooting oneself in the foot? Pakistan has just done that. The Jihadis arranged against India will bite them more and force them to attack India. Me and You know what the outcome will be irrespective of the tactics used including Nukes.

So many jihadis in one place, and they cannot cross over. One can already imagine the plight of the PA.
 
After 2015, there was no dispute. Only one fact - Pakistan needs to vacate PoJ&K

Unfortunately, on the other forum, people do not have the brains or the rationale to be able to see the writing on the wall. Discussed all what is panning out in 2016 :)

Cheers.

I was given negative ratings and banned so many times for just saying "Any talks will only be about PoK". >>> BAN! :love:

They couldn't see the writing on the wall then, they can't see it today, they won't see it tomorrow. All servile robots over there.
 
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Couldn't agree more.

As for Clausewitz, he was specific for battlefield with some mention of diplomacy. For Kautilya, he was correct in using politics with military power as an ancillary. This, the latter aspect, is what is driving our policy.

It should interest you that Henry Kissinger in his book world order deemed chanakya book Arthashastra as a combination of Machiavelli and Clausewitz.

a direct quote from his book

"For Kautilya, power was the dominant reality. It was multidimensional, and its factors were interdependent. All elements in a given situation were relevant, calculable, and amenable to manipulation toward a leader’s strategic aims. Geography, finance, military strength, diplomacy, espionage, law, agriculture, cultural traditions, morale and popular opinion, rumors and legends, and men’s vices and weaknesses needed to be shaped as a unit by a wise king to strengthen and expand his realm — much as a modern orchestra conductor shapes the instruments in his charge into a coherent tune. It was a combination of Machiavelli and Clausewitz."


Anyways in the context of the current discussion let me add that
In a conflict between 2 nations the margin of superiority ( symmetric or assymetric or both ) generally determines the degree to which violence can be limited. And if the margin of superiority is predominant the lower the chances of being challenged to a war. And if there is challenge, the greater the margin of superiority the greater is the chances of suppressing the challenge quicker albeit with lesser degree of violence.

As far as I concerned for the last 5 years India has been silently but surely working towards this.........
 
We need to be at 10 trillion dollar economy plus to make an attempt on pok,gilgit. Otherwise economic cost and diplomatic pressure will be too much.Unless you are near equal of china all it would take for the fancy plans of taking gilgit to collapse is a partial mobilization of PLA in tibet .There is also absolutely no need to take in azad jihadis, and you cant commit ethnic cleansing in a democracy under world scrutiny.So right now only op kabaddi 2 is possible.Rest is hyperbole.Those that are obsessed with cutting off china should remember that CPEC is a lemon that is already dying its own death.It will crush and beggar pakistan, which suits us just fine.Oil is gonna be finished in 10- 20 years, so oil pipeline from gwadar has no long term benefit,either way china has russian gas now.Trade through the land route is another lemon due to huge distances,horrible terrain and totally unprofitable logistics cost compared to seaborne shipping.
Same case for connection to central asia, there is nothing profitable in central asia except gas, and we have multiple sources of that, sparse populations and impoverished countries.No market.The money is in east asia ..europe and america...even africa.We already buy uranium from central asia..dont need a dangerous road for that.
So this obsession with cutting off china and getting access to central asia are largely irrelevant.Seal the loc with technology, pound them mercilessly with a policy of 10 pak regulars dead for every indian jawan kia and build up arty and infrastructure for that( already underway)..fund proxies within pakistan...periodic balakot like strikes..and above all go full speed on economy...if we are 10 trillion dollar economy and they are 400 billion.the 'rivalry' is automatically dead.We have until 2035 to get to 10 trillion.After that we can do what we want.Pakistan has no future as it has no economy..in the modern world..economy dictates your diplomatic influence..power projection..military and technological capacity..internal unrest level..everything.
 
We need to be at 10 trillion dollar economy plus to make an attempt on pok,gilgit. Otherwise economic cost and diplomatic pressure will be too much.Unless you are near equal of china all it would take for the fancy plans of taking gilgit to collapse is a partial mobilization of PLA in tibet .There is also absolutely no need to take in azad jihadis, and you cant commit ethnic cleansing in a democracy under world scrutiny.So right now only op kabaddi 2 is possible.Rest is hyperbole.Those that are obsessed with cutting off china should remember that CPEC is a lemon that is already dying its own death.It will crush and beggar pakistan, which suits us just fine.Oil is gonna be finished in 10- 20 years, so oil pipeline from gwadar has no long term benefit,either way china has russian gas now.Trade through the land route is another lemon due to huge distances,horrible terrain and totally unprofitable logistics cost compared to seaborne shipping.
Same case for connection to central asia, there is nothing profitable in central asia except gas, and we have multiple sources of that, sparse populations and impoverished countries.No market.The money is in east asia ..europe and america...even africa.We already buy uranium from central asia..dont need a dangerous road for that.
So this obsession with cutting off china and getting access to central asia are largely irrelevant.Seal the loc with technology, pound them mercilessly with a policy of 10 pak regulars dead for every indian jawan kia and build up arty and infrastructure for that( already underway)..fund proxies within pakistan...periodic balakot like strikes..and above all go full speed on economy...if we are 10 trillion dollar economy and they are 400 billion.the 'rivalry' is automatically dead.We have until 2035 to get to 10 trillion.After that we can do what we want.Pakistan has no future as it has no economy..in the modern world..economy dictates your diplomatic influence..power projection..military and technological capacity..internal unrest level..everything.
May I point out an inherent contradiction in your assessment. You say oil & gas aren't important and then add China is getting the same from Russia. Well, just as Russia is wary of putting all its eggs in one basket, I assume so will the Chinese. They would definitely want to diversify their share of suppliers and also safeguard the supplies.

Moreover, I'm of the opinion the whole concept of running an oil & gas pipeline thru the length of Pakistan into Xinjiang is a smokescreen. The terrain simply doesn't allow it. Now would one thru Wakhan meandering into KPK though knowledgeable commentators claim it's better than traversing thru the Khunjerab & the Karakorums.

There's more sense in getting it thru Kyaukphyu. But to do that they'd have to traverse the BoB and counter the strong Indian presence there. Hence, the base at Jiwani to deter India in case we undertake any adverse activities in the BoB. The beauty of the philosophy of a string of pearls is that apart from dual use it has a certain redundancy inbuilt into the project.

As long as China is determined to reclaim all those territories it does of which Taiwan is paramount in their list of claims, the need to diversify and safeguard their sources of energy supply will be top most priority.

Further, I wouldn't be Dismissive of both oil & gas as a fuel for the next 3-4 or at least the next 2-3 decades. By this, I'm not referring only to motor fuels but it's capacity to generate power among other utilitarian items . The coming EV revolution will push these oil economies to become much more competitive and flexible. Something which will definitely prompt fossil fuel deficit and huge consumers like us & China to look for bargains in our efforts to diversify our basket of energy products. It's more applicable to us given our economic strength or lack of it as compared to China You can view this period as a transition time .

It's for precisely for this reason, the CAR holds attraction for us. In built into this imperative should be an attempt to isolate China from accessing the same energy sources in the CAR region thru the land route we would be accessing them thru so that we can have a good bargain and as far as possible a monopoly.That's where our interest in PoK & maybe extending that to Wakhan comes in .Converging into this is the security situation in the region namely Afghanistan.

We would definitely want a second front for Pakistan if we don't want to face a lot of heat in Kashmir in the coming days . As far as inheritance of a jihadi led culture and the fact that we can't commit a genocide there goes, my view is it's not needed. Once war breaks out, ppl who want to save their lives automatically make it out which will be the vast majority. We ought to aid such efforts thru indiscriminate bombings calling victims of it as collateral damage. The rest need to be culled with extreme prejudice.The example of Syria lies before you.

Having made this assessment, let me also agree with you that while Pakistan's economy is in the doldrums we aren't in a good shape today too. Hence all such activities need take place once we have secured our economy beyond the usual shocks which as of today could shatter a fragile economy. However I disagree with the ballpark figure of 10 trillion USD. For all you know that may take another 15 years. We don't have that much time. The unfolding situation in Kashmir and Afghanistan makes that time schedule untenable.

A few closing points -
Tell me, after the lifting of sanctions on Iran, their unnecessary bargaining and leveraging us by bringing in the Russians in the Farzad B gas field would've left a bitter taste in our mouths. What saved us was Trump's election and Iran's attempts at over playing their hand. What's the alternative? The same old Gulf states who'd only be delighted by our limited maneouvrability minus Iran. Venezuela is shut. Russia & the US too far away and not the most trusted of suppliers. Where's the alternative to the CAR?


As far as the CPEC goes, now that the game is out, I would expect China to temper it's assessment of the situation and come up with more equitable deals. You will see much more activity on this front as it's now increasingly clear that the US China trade war is here to stay. Expect China to double down on its deal making attempts in the neighborhood, more pressure to conclude the RCEP and more pressure on India to join in the BRI.

Finally, it's never a good idea to abandon your claims. Whoever thought 7 decades ago that water would be a crisis 8-10 decades down the line. Yet here we are today with Kashmir which controls the supply of practically all of Pakistan's waters. What would've happened if Pakistan had gained control of Kashmir in 1948 ? Would they have been as magnanimous as us in offering the IWT or would we have been hysterical like them claiming Kashmir as our jugular vein? Let's also consider the case of Tibet and how vital is it in the Chinese scheme of things given it's the source of practically all the major rivers in China.
 
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I was given negative ratings and banned so many times for just saying "Any talks will only be about PoK". >>> BAN! :love:

They couldn't see the writing on the wall then, they can't see it today, they won't see it tomorrow. All servile robots over there.

One loses all sanity of objective thinking when one is obsessed with hatred and revenge. One = Pakistan.
 
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We need to be at 10 trillion dollar economy plus to make an attempt on pok,gilgit. Otherwise economic cost and diplomatic pressure will be too much.Unless you are near equal of china all it would take for the fancy plans of taking gilgit to collapse is a partial mobilization of PLA in tibet .There is also absolutely no need to take in azad jihadis, and you cant commit ethnic cleansing in a democracy under world scrutiny.So right now only op kabaddi 2 is possible.Rest is hyperbole.Those that are obsessed with cutting off china should remember that CPEC is a lemon that is already dying its own death.It will crush and beggar pakistan, which suits us just fine.Oil is gonna be finished in 10- 20 years, so oil pipeline from gwadar has no long term benefit,either way china has russian gas now.Trade through the land route is another lemon due to huge distances,horrible terrain and totally unprofitable logistics cost compared to seaborne shipping.
Same case for connection to central asia, there is nothing profitable in central asia except gas, and we have multiple sources of that, sparse populations and impoverished countries.No market.The money is in east asia ..europe and america...even africa.We already buy uranium from central asia..dont need a dangerous road for that.
So this obsession with cutting off china and getting access to central asia are largely irrelevant.Seal the loc with technology, pound them mercilessly with a policy of 10 pak regulars dead for every indian jawan kia and build up arty and infrastructure for that( already underway)..fund proxies within pakistan...periodic balakot like strikes..and above all go full speed on economy...if we are 10 trillion dollar economy and they are 400 billion.the 'rivalry' is automatically dead.We have until 2035 to get to 10 trillion.After that we can do what we want.Pakistan has no future as it has no economy..in the modern world..economy dictates your diplomatic influence..power projection..military and technological capacity..internal unrest level..everything.
Add to that, prop up afghanistan. That will keep them in check, in fact a radical taliban in afghanistan can be a blessing in disguise. All we need to ensure is that pakistan continues funding its proxy taliban and goes bankrupt. Then taliban will try to become masters of pakistan , it would be an irony of epic proportions.
 
Om Shanti

Adat ho gayi hai yaar ab to roz yeh sab sun ne ki. Ab to khoon bhi thanda par gaya. A delayed action means war lost.
Happening since 1947. We lose more soldiers during peace time(COIN , accidents , socio-economic problems) etc than war. Life is very cheap in India , such news have become a normal now. Peaked in the 90s , some what lesser now
 
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