India - Pakistan Standoff 2019

[lcafanboy]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1181522051758206976

Imran leaves Chinese PM alone to be introduced to his delegation. At the 12th second Bajwa gestures to Imran to go accompany Chinese PM instead of standing aloof...
Charas ke side effects.....

 

[screambowl]

Now days I am having sleepless night due to inaction of Indian as a whole against Pakistan and those countries who are supporting them. Looks like out of 1.3 billion no one cares about coming generation. All are busy in boozing and sleeping. There is no narrative in the country no worry and no concern about national security. Youth says they are hindus this and that and very next hour they are found in clubs doing sheesha others are busy in jokes on whatsapp and ghutka. Rest want to run their family and struggle for basic needs and rich guys have nothing in India so why to care.
We as a people of Bharat have crossed the level of extreme lethargy. I have started to feel worried about this country, especiously from youth like us. This time the government is strong but people are suffering from leprosy.

Bhagat Singh was so right : "behro so sunaney kae liye dhamake ki zarurat hoti hai" . If nothing is done this dhamaka will happen again from pakistani side or naxals. And then every one will wake up debate sip tea and sleep again. Pakistanis are just letting the time pass to get rid of current situation. I know haste o haste is not right but at least make a narrative like Vistol said.

My God imagine what would have happened if there had been war in 2009 or 2011. Even after having such a bold PM and strong regime like right now it's taking so time.

I don't know why Modi ji is taking so much pains for 1.3 billion patients of leprosy who themselves don't want to get cured.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Now days I am having sleepless night due to inaction of Indian as a whole against Pakistan and those countries who are supporting them. Looks like out of 1.3 billion no one cares about coming generation. All are busy in boozing and sleeping. There is no narrative in the country no worry and no concern about national security. Youth says they are hindus this and that and very next hour they are found in clubs doing sheesha others are busy in jokes on whatsapp and ghutka. Rest want to run their family and struggle for basic needs and rich guys have nothing in India so why to care.
We as a people of Bharat have crossed the level of extreme lethargy. I have started to feel worried about this country, especiously from youth like us. This time the government is strong but people are suffering from leprosy.

Bhagat Singh was so right : "behro so sunaney kae liye dhamake ki zarurat hoti hai" . If nothing is done this dhamaka will happen again from pakistani side or naxals. And then every one will wake up debate sip tea and sleep again. Pakistanis are just letting the time pass to get rid of current situation. I know haste o haste is not right but at least make a narrative like Vistol said.

My God imagine what would have happened if there had been war in 2009 or 2011. Even after having such a bold PM and strong regime like right now it's taking so time.

I don't know why Modi ji is taking so much pains for 1.3 billion patients of leprosy who themselves don't want to get cured.

AGAIN , for the Millionth Time , I would say that RIGHT now , there is no need or justification for a war Except low level Skirmishes

This Govt has the WILL , which the Previous Govt did not have

Accordingly we have to prepare for the coming conflict

Now the Only thing left is Opportunity

It is a Matter of When ,Not If

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1182158384302366720

 

[Golden_Rule]

bhai mein Ind main hoon jamna paar, new delhi

lagta hai jamna paar kafi baraf padti hai, switzerland jaise

 

[shaxm]

Hey guys, the Muftis and Abduls are relatively quiet after release. What do you think is up with them?

 

[Sulla84]

Hey guys, the Muftis and Abduls are relatively quiet after release. What do you think is up with them?

Mehbooba, Omar and his dad, are not released.. Three others were released

 

[Hellfire]

Because on Twitter , Every body is desperate for information from where ever it comes

Some of the Smart Indians who read URDU
Dig out Pakistani Casualties and post Screenshots

Precisely. I shall be glad if you could appreciate the fact that I, of all concerned, am not exactly the greatest fan for the present dispensation's security policy. I hope you do recollect that from the other forum.

 

[screambowl]

Accordingly we have to prepare for the coming conflict

Bhai hadh ho gayi.

What kind of preparation to fight against merely 200 Million. This preparation is only then required when you are in conflict with a strong enemy. You consider Pakistan strong? If so then we have been fooled by our governments in the pas 30 years that they can handle Pakistan. And Pakistan was correct when ever it said that India doesn't dare to begin or get involved in a conflict because of incapability.

 

[Hellfire]

What happened was that we Realized that
In Case of the Air Force , the Limited War will NOT give Satisfactory Results

If The Theatre of Action is J and K Alone
PAF can again Muster up a 50 plane package

So Either we put more Resources in J and K theatre or Start opening more fronts immediately

How do you come up with such gems? I am positively intrigued.

 

[Hellfire]

Sir,are u quite sure about this 3 strike??

Sir.

Pretty sure. Why? Do you have information that indicates otherwise?

 

[Hellfire]

what is the probability that IAF did fire BVRAAM but PAF jammed it?

Nil. The IAF was only going to shoot with a 100% probability of a kill with a confirmation of technical violation/ingress into Indian territory. Unlike most of our armchair Generals/Admirals/Air Chief Marshals, the armed forces work under very strict ROEs which are issued keeping in mind the general directives as issued by Government of India.

The operational flexibility that is always there is to escalate proportionally but only in a clear and comprehensive act of self defence and not in an offensive action. The latter is to be explicitly sanctioned by an authority not below the rank of Army Commander and equivalent and in this case, since the mission was being undertaken as a retaliation to own strike at Balakot, the ROEs for the operations as issued by GoI were in force, taking into consideration, all the parameters of the strike we undertook as also the likely scenarios.

 

[Patriots]

@Falcon
Sir do u believe now that now iaf has bvrs with higher range
As there was report that our bvrs Were outranged by paf bvrs

 

[vstol Jockey]

Nil. The IAF was only going to shoot with a 100% probability of a kill with a confirmation of technical violation/ingress into Indian territory. Unlike most of our armchair Generals/Admirals/Air Chief Marshals, the armed forces work under very strict ROEs which are issued keeping in mind the general directives as issued by Government of India.

The operational flexibility that is always there is to escalate proportionally but only in a clear and comprehensive act of self defence and not in an offensive action. The latter is to be explicitly sanctioned by an authority not below the rank of Army Commander and equivalent and in this case, since the mission was being undertaken as a retaliation to own strike at Balakot, the ROEs for the operations as issued by GoI were in force, taking into consideration, all the parameters of the strike we undertook as also the likely scenarios.

Once any ship or aircraft or a formation is fired upon by an enemy, the right to self defense arises and they are free to shoot back also. The ROEs in place on that day did not allow IAF to engage PAF flying 10 kms away from LOC as they did on that day. SU-30MKIs did try to fire back but the weapons control computer did not allow it as the targets were beyond the range of the AAMs carried by them. The ROEs were changed next day and after that PAF stayed miles away from SU-30MKI.

 

[Hellfire]

sigh.....look I won't even bother quoting individual lines. The whole discussion was about civilian perspective about the way whole fiasco was handled & what was worth of Indian lives that were wasted away. I couldn't give less of a shit about your romanticization of death and all that you are on about.

Sigh! I agreed to your calling your rant a rant, why the ruffled ego? Do you, as a civilian, have a right to know what the end game of a plan is? Nope. Do you, as a citizen have a right to know what military actions have we taken as a retaliation and then some? No. Do you, as a citizen, have a right to criticize the issue? Yes. That is it.

Every soldier that signs up for the job also knows that the nation he is guarding, will not let his death go in vain.

And since you are not a soldier, why do you assume to speak for us? Any reason? Or did we just appoint you our mouth piece?

Are you aware that we lost more men in Kargil War in retrieving our fallen comrades than in actual attacks? Almost to the tune of 1:2.5 (1 KIA in assault and 2.5 in trying to retrieve his mortal remains)? Can your eminence, as ,self declared spokesperson for me arising out of your extensive soldiering experience, tell me what 'national' objective was achieved?

If you think that losing 40+ lives was not worth going to war then its just sad. I'm sure that the soldiers that died would agree with people here saying that just because the amount of deaths didn't cross the threshold, war is a no go. How morbid is that? Imagine saying to a woman - we are sorry to give you the news about the death of your husband and brother, but we won't be going for a war. Had your son died too, the threshold would have been crossed and we would have initiated the war. My *censored*ing God!!!

Darling, I spoke to tell a young 22 year old girl, that the boy she fought her parents to be with, died on a cold august morning along a river bed. I spoke to the woman telling her that even though it had been only a month since her parents had relented to an intercaste marriage and agreed for a roka ceremony in October, the boy was dead and she had to be strong to move on in her life. She asked why did it have to happen? My answer didnt change - he chose his way of life and paid a price for it.

So please spare me your weepy rants. I, unlike you, neither need to imagine, nor need to speculate --- I have lived it. Not once, not twice but numerous times.

If personally attacking me somehow makes you feel superior, then, well its just sad.
Again, don't bother replying if you are going on another philosophical rant. If you have anything substantial to discuss, point it out.

Like I said, grow up. You do not even know what personal attack is.

personal attack - Wiktionary

Edit-
PS- let me quote just one line-

You don't even see the irony here, do you? Your discussion was mainly about the semantics about the balakot which I didn't even bother going into. It keeps changing everyday. Since, nothing came from official sources, I take everything posted here with a great ton of salt. I avoid commenting on that mess. YOU came uninvited to the discussion I was having with the other guy, I didn't even ask you anything. And even after all this nonsense you wrote, nothing was of relevance to my discussion.

PS: In a public forum, invitations are not extended. Take a room and sit and rant there if you want privacy.

Cheers

I think you have entirely misunderstood his post.

I doubt it. The member has merely put out a rant, without expecting an agreement from a vella like me to say that it was indeed a rant and then having some thoughts on it.

Sir, I am not saying he is correct or incorrect because I don't have the means to cross verify the same. However his assumptions/statement (not sure how to put it in best way) was that in higher probability, IAF controller had guided MIGs to concerned sector. MIGs had positioned well but PAF was rearranging their position at last minute. During this period somewhere communication contact between both lead MiG and IAF control was broken, most logically due to intense communication blinding techs being enforced. However wing MIG was still in contact. Lead MIG sent massage before being blocked of sightings and went hot as per previous instructions. At this point of time, controller warned them of impending trap being laid but lead MIG was unaware of the situation and went ahead. Wingman got the massage and went cold. Rest all know. Lead MIG fired as well as got hit and subsequent capture. That's all I could gather in his short statement. Please note I have expanded on the brief statement for better understanding. Once again saying I am not aware of exactly what went down and what happened there. That's why I read everybody's posts and opinion, Sir. Thank you.

The 'heat of the battle' is a very strange phenomenon. Communications tend to get 'garbled' when you have a kill in front of you. That is all I can say.

Wg Cdr Abhinandan took a risk, got it. The soldier in me cheers that, but the self appointed strategist in me, is mightily disappointed. I am critical of his actions only because a larger game plan was nixed. The whole plan is now changed and realigned.

 

[screambowl]

And since you are not a soldier, why do you assume to speak for us? Any reason? Or did we just appoint you our mouth piece?

I condemn this statement.

It's only civilians who are there to speak for you and support you and stand with you when one of ours gets martyred, otherwise the leaders of this country has left no chair turned to fix you in coffins bought out of scam. Your kids and relatives and friends are civilians as well.

 

[Hellfire]

As of now, when we aren't in a position to prosecute our claims in PoJ&K .Hence, it makes more sense to go piecemeal on them. Do a Balakote & they send their creme de la creme to avenge it while we were unprepared.

Mistakes happen in a war, irrespective of levels of preparations. Not every finger is equal, not every officer the intelligent genius. Not every soldier the quickest. Just saying.

No problem. Next time, with the benefit of hindsight, let's ambush them. Shoot down a few of their premier aircraft, every time they commit a Pulwama. Such that, we have a guaranteed reprisal every time they commit an outrage. Till such time as they're severely weakened and we are in a position to prosecute our claims in PoJ&K.

Look, you know I love to quote von Clausewitz on war, war being an extension of national policy. But let us also remember what Kautilya said.

He argued that the act of diplomacy is really a subtle act of war,. Diplomacy remains a series of actions taken to weaken an enemy and gain advantages for oneself; military, diplomatic, resources, materials, wealth - all with an eye toward eventual conquest and victory. A nation's foreign policy should always consist of preliminary movements toward war:

"In this way, the conqueror should establish in the rear and in front, a circle (of kings) in his own interest. . . . And in the entire circle, he should ever station envoys and secret agents, becoming a friend of the rivals, maintaining secrecy when striking again and again. The affairs of one, who cannot maintain secrecy, . . . undoubtedly perish, like a broken boat in the ocean."

According to him, even during a time of diplomacy and negotiated peace, a king should seek to "strike again and again" in stealth, with the objective to weaken the enemy.

He also proposed that if opposed by an alliance of nations, a king should secretly "sow dissensions" within the alliance until one or more of the parties in the alliance becomes weak. (Isolation)


Only when he has weakened a neighbor, economically, diplomatically, socially, the king "should violate the treaty."

"The wise (conqueror), making one neighboring king fight with another neighboring king, should seize the territory of another, cutting off his party on all sides."

In Kautilya's view, two kinds of kingdoms confront any king—those weak kingdoms fit to be exterminated and those strong kingdoms that, over a long period of time, one can only secretly harass and hope to weaken. Thus we have Pakistan and China.

"As between an enemy fit to be harassed and an enemy fit to be exterminated, acquisition of land from an enemy fit to be exterminated is preferable. For, the king fit to be exterminated, being without support or with a weak support, is deserted by his subjects when, on being attacked, he wishes to flee taking with him the treasury and the army."

It is best to attack an enemy that is "divided" socially, politically and if possible, geographically, rather than an enemy in which the subjects have organized themselves into "bands." (Thus why a full fledged military assault by India was always considered as a last option,because the hatred for India remains the one unifying factor for our neighbours)

During times of peace and negotiations, Kautilya wanted spies and secret agents to exploit the divisions within a country. Most countries, he maintained, have four kinds of unhappy subjects—the enraged, the frightened, the greedy, and the proud.

It is this segment that needs to be worked on.

Kautilya also proposed to take a nation trying to remain neutral or "indifferent" and secretly provoke a row/disagreement between that nation and a neighboring nation, until the neutral nation sought his help. This, is most important and relevant right now.

Besides, when you speak of bringing our enemy down completely, what exactly are you referring to? It's still not a policy with us to prey on their various fault lines irrespective of what the Pakistanis claim, is it? At least going by OSINT. Whereas, it should've been the case long ago. I suspect our espionage guys are up to it but our political bosses aren't.

The question that has vexed our political class is the 'what after' scenario. There still remains a political hesitancy in taking steps that indeed need to be taken. Like I have said earlier - BJP is just UPA ver 2.0. The basic policies are same. Article 370, is merely symbolic, a case which I have spoken against as it served no purpose until and unless a political resolve is made to integrate the territories of J&K firmly into the Indian Union.

The new ACM has stated that we are in the process of upgrading security of our air bases beginning with Pathankot which will serve as our pilot project. Now it's more than 3 years since the attack on Pathankot air base. We still are in the process of upgrading security there . And we've no idea of whether the IA & IN are conducting similar measures.

I can confidently answer - the present government has, in real terms, reduced the actual allocation. Hence, no money is available, usually.


Rest of your post, no two views.

 

[Hellfire]

I condemn this statement.

Please carry on. Right to freedom of expression confers that right to you. Does not change the fact. As a soldier, I am yet to find any soldier who says that the nation should go to war because he/she is dead.

It's only civilians who are there to speak for you and support you and stand with you when one of ours gets martyred, otherwise the leaders of this country has left no chair turned to fix you in scam coffins bought. Your kids and relatives and friends are civilians as well.

Well, you (and I, since I vote always), are responsible for voting those scum in in the first place. So- thanks for taking some responsibility for your own actions?

 

[screambowl]

The latter is to be explicitly sanctioned by an authority not below the rank of Army Commander and equivalent and in this case, since the mission was being undertaken as a retaliation to own strike at Balakot, the ROEs for the operations as issued by GoI were in force, taking into consideration, all the parameters of the strike we undertook as also the likely scenarios.

What if it was a rafale in air and ROE's were there . What is the probability of Rafale dodging the BVR?

Well, you (and I, since I vote always), are responsible for voting those scum in in the first place. So- thanks for taking some responsibility for your own actions?

And you guys get manipulated by them as well for promotions and postings. I know everything what happens in MoD from Audit to Procurement to Deputations. Let's not make it a soldier vs civilian issue. A south Indian favours a south Indian in military as well very much civilian instinct.

 

[Hellfire]

My bad, I didn't even see this reply of yours. The air of narcissistic arrogance you have is really something that amuses me. Your comment suggests that somehow only you understand how this world works and people like me have no right to question the armed forces and the government on their failures.

Apparently, your posts till now, somehow reinforce that 'narcissistic arrogance'. Let me assure you, the more I interact with posts like these (ones made so far), the more it gets reinforced. Don't blame me.

Then explain to me-
You are supportive of the view that it wouldn't have been feasible to go to war after the death of those 40 souls. There was nothing to be gained and would have been a war of attrition. Lets accept that for a moment. Then, explain that 'qatl ki raat' quote you keep talking about. Why is it that we were ready for a war when abhinandan was captured? Did war become feasible overnight? This was the exact line-



So a night before there was nothing of value to be gained, and overnight, after capture of a pilot, war became feasible? Suddenly, the tactical perspective changed, the strategic perspective changed, and achievable goals suddenly started to appear out of thin air.

Firstly, I didn't make that statement.

Secondly, this is very easy to think out for yourself. Come on, exercise those grey cells. You just might get it why it was feasible. What changed? Why was Mr Modi willing to go to war?

Let's be real, if war was not feasible after death of 40 soldiers, it suddenly won't become feasible after capture of 1 more human. The reverse of this is, if war was feasible after capture of abhi, then it was feasible before that too. The entire system just didn't have the balls to go ahead. The reason I believe was public pressure wasn't enough and if thats not true, that just means one twisted thing - life of abhi was more important than of those 40 soldiers.

And thats my whole point. We just showed to the whole world that we are happy with some small airstrike after death of 40 soldiers. We reduced the worth of Indian lives ourselves. And the signalling after that was even more confusing. If we were willing to go to war for the 41st life that would have been wasted in this non-sense, it was more due to public optics rather than any human compassion for Indian lives.

Like I said "your posts till now, somehow reinforce that 'narcissistic arrogance'. Let me assure you, the more I interact with posts like these (ones made so far), the more it gets reinforced. Don't blame me."

Nobody is forcing you to fight a war to avenge the deaths of your fellow countrymen, ghar par baitho, chudiyan pehen kar, aur video games khelo. Be very clear on that. I am ...

Okies .... kaunsa khele? Jo aap khelte ho? Because you certainly are doing that

Edit- The policies of the government are not written in stone, the way you talked, seems like you are the one making policies for India. Modi, Doval, Shah, RAW/IB chiefs ne tumhe theka nahin diya. So, talking in absolutes is just idiotic. Had there been more public pressure, we would have gone to war. Just goes to show that we as nation have little appetite for war.

Well, here I will just say - what do you know of me? You just do not know anything about me sir. How do you know that I am not aware?