Indian Army Artillery Systems : News and Updates

It is wrong to compare M777 range with a 52 calibre gun.
We got the Kalyani ULH in the same category as M777 which could also be lifted by a Chinook

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And with Dhanush 52 also in works , it's gonna be a really tough sell for Bharat 52 to make cut. It will come down to per unit cost.
Dhanush if manufactured by OFB will result in poor quality along with increased costs. Now that several artillery systems are under the embargo list, there's a high possibility IA would opt for systems developed by private Indian defence firms like Tata, Kalyani, Mahindra, L&T etc over OFB crap

ATAGS is still some time away.
Testing of ATAGS guns made by Tata and Kalyani produced desirable results. IA should be able to close in testing soon
 
It is wrong to compare M777 range with a 52 calibre gun.

And with Dhanush 52 also in works , it's gonna be a really tough sell for Bharat 52 to make cut. It will come down to per unit cost.

ATAGS is still some time away.

You can be guaranteed the Bharat 52 will be cheaper than Dhanush 52, and also come with better quality and superior support.
 
Dhanush if manufactured by OFB will result in poor quality along with increased costs. Now that several artillery systems are under the embargo list, there's a high possibility IA would opt for systems developed by private Indian defence firms like Tata, Kalyani, Mahindra, L&T etc over OFB crap

Dhanush as we of today has been really vigorously tested by Army which did it in a way that almost trying to find a way to not buy it. But it stood the tests.

Dhanush coming from a FH77 design is any day better than the GC45/G5 family son Bharat 52.

But at the end of the day , pricing will matter.
Testing of ATAGS guns made by Tata and Kalyani produced desirable results. IA should be able to close in testing soon

Around 19-20 tons of weight as of now. That is the issue. Should come down to something like 15 tons or so. Otherwise the present supply infrastructure will not be able to support it.

There might be a LSP in present Avatar, but for the larger 1440 gun order, it needs to shed weight.
 
You can be guaranteed the Bharat 52 will be cheaper than Dhanush 52, and also come with better quality and superior support.


All I want is to have minimum types of guns in our plan for buying 2000 different types of new 155 towed guns.

Ideally I will want a sleeker ATAGS to bag the 1400+ gun order and the remaining 500 guns to be purchased in the interim , would be good if it's a single type.

But if there is a space , then surely why not.
 
All I want is to have minimum types of guns in our plan for buying 2000 different types of new 155 towed guns.

Ideally I will want a sleeker ATAGS to bag the 1400+ gun order and the remaining 500 guns to be purchased in the interim , would be good if it's a single type.

But if there is a space , then surely why not.

We need over 4000 towed guns. And this is not even considering the fact that we need 2 new artillery divisions for the 2 new MSCs.

Over the next 10 years, you can be guaranteed the Pakistanis will create at least another Strike Corps, which means we will have to come up with another one of our own, hence another artillery division. And we will also need more artillery brigades for the reformation going on.

I think we have only scratched the surface of what we really need.
 
We need over 4000 towed guns. And this is not even considering the fact that we need 2 new artillery divisions for the 2 new MSCs.

Over the next 10 years, you can be guaranteed the Pakistanis will create at least another Strike Corps, which means we will have to come up with another one of our own, hence another artillery division. And we will also need more artillery brigades for the reformation going on.

I think we have only scratched the surface of what we really need.
PLA has transformed a lot. One major change is changing from towed artillery units to mobile/truck mounted/SPH style units.

Similarly we need to reduce our towed units in favor of more SPHs and more truck mounted units.

For the truck mounted units maybe use 39 calibre guns so as to increase mobility.

The towed M46 being upgraded, does have the firepower, but it is a liability too. The Dhanush / Bofors have APUs but that is also limited mobility.

We need to move away from towed units as much as possible and move towards self propelled tracked and truck mounted gun systems.
 
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PLA has transformed a lot. One major change is changing from towed artillery units to mobile/truck mounted/SPH style units.

Similarly we need to reduce our towed units in favor of more SPHs and more truck mounted units.

For the truck mounted units maybe use 39 calibre guns so as to increase mobility.

The towed M46 being upgraded, does have the firepower, but it is a liability too. The Dhanush / Bofors have APUs but that is also limited mobility.

We need to move away from towed units as much as possible and move towards self propelled tracked and truck mounted gun systems.

Logically, yeah, going entirely for MGS and SPH would be a good deal. But the kind of investment needed is something we can't afford. It would have been possible if our artillery situation was not as bad as it actually is today. If we had time to waste for another 10 years and began modernisation after we were a $7T economy or more, then it would have made sense. Today, the army would rather spend their meagre resources on more tanks supported by towed guns than less tanks supported by SPH.

Anyway, most of our army in the mountains is forward deployed, so the MGS wouldn't be as useful in comparison to the cost. Towed is enough there. Also, I think the IA would prefer 52 cal guns instead of 39 or 45, even if the smaller guns are more mobile.
 
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We got the Kalyani ULH in the same category as M777 which could also be lifted by a Chinook

View attachment 17320


Dhanush if manufactured by OFB will result in poor quality along with increased costs. Now that several artillery systems are under the embargo list, there's a high possibility IA would opt for systems developed by private Indian defence firms like Tata, Kalyani, Mahindra, L&T etc over OFB crap


Testing of ATAGS guns made by Tata and Kalyani produced desirable results. IA should be able to close in testing soon
IA bound purchase from L1 bidder, if ofb comes as l1 bidder then they will purchase from obf.

ATAGS, is an over weighed behemoth with 18T. Not sure wether IA will opt or not.
 
PLA has transformed a lot. One major change is changing from towed artillery units to mobile/truck mounted/SPH style units.

Similarly we need to reduce our towed units in favor of more SPHs and more truck mounted units.

For the truck mounted units maybe use 39 calibre guns so as to increase mobility.

The towed M46 being upgraded, does have the firepower, but it is a liability too. The Dhanush / Bofors have APUs but that is also limited mobility.

We need to move away from towed units as much as possible and move towards self propelled tracked and truck mounted gun systems.
I think IA should consider kalyani's 105 sph too, tye gun weighs less than a tonnes. Our ofb gun weighs 3.5 tonnes.

105mm kalyani gun is the perfect recipe against chinese in lafakh. It can be fielded in numbers and have high mobility. Hope IA stop its new romance with light tank in favor of 105mm kalyani gun.
 
Can towed howitzers be converted to sph. Like could we take our m46 and use older t55 and t72 chassis to make sph??
 
Bharat Forge artillery gun in final trials before sale to Indian Army
One of four artillery guns developed by Bharat Forge is learnt to have reached the final stage of testing with the Indian Army.

During a recent analyst call after the announcement of the Pune-based company’s June quarter financial results, a top official said that all four gun platforms developed by it are in various stages of trials.

“We have gone through four sets of trials for the first gun and three sets of trials for the second gun. Once the last phase of trials is over we are ready for the sale process to begin,” said Amit Kalyani, Deputy Managing Director, Bharat Forge.

Reducing import dependence
Bharat Forge is set to benefit hugely from the reform initiative kick-started by the Ministry of Defence wherein restrictions have been imposed on import of 101 weapons and military platforms. The initiative, announced on August 9, includes artillery guns.

The towed artillery gun (155mm x 52 Calibre), which is part of the import embargo, has been developed by Bharat Forge. Called Bharat 52 and classified as an Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), it is the first gun built by the Kalyani Group.

Weighing 15 tonnes, Bharat 52 has a firing range of more than 48 km and has a self-propelled ground speed of 20 km per hour. It can fire six rounds in 30 seconds.

ATAGS is considered to be one of the most advanced field artillery systems in the world but India is yet to induct them. In 2016 India ordered 145 howitzers (also an artillery gun) from the US for $750 million. The 155mm x 39 calibre ultra-light howitzers have a range of 24-39 km, which is much lower than the Bharat 52 ATAGS.

With the private sector being allowed to take part in defence production, Indian companies have been keen participants. In 2018, Mahindra Defence tied up with US-based BAE Systems to manufacture M777 howitzers.

Ashok Leyland is engaged in making Field Artillery Tractors, which are also in the 101 restricted items.

Fully local
“All the products that we are making are 100 percent local — they are 100 percent designed, engineered and developed locally. Three artillery guns are in advanced stages of testing. One is in the final stage of testing — it has gone through all the tests; it is the user test which is now going on this month,” Kalyani added.

The Indian Army is reportedly looking to procure about 150 ATAGS. Depending on the add-ons and the level of technology, each ATAGS can be priced up to Rs 15 crore, said Kalyani.

“The products that we have focussed on, all of them are meant for domestic manufacturing. And in certain products such as artillery guns, it is very clear that there is nobody as competitive as us either in technology or on an overall basis, so we are looking forward to the conclusion of our final trials,” he added.

Three-horizon strategy
Bharat Forge is following what it calls a three-horizon strategy. Horizon One has products such as artillery guns, some armoured vehicles, and some speciality vehicles. Horizon Two also has specialty vehicles. Horizon Three has electronics and high-end technology.

“Now, based on the announcements, we will deepen our capability within these product segments and add strength in areas that we need. But I do not think we are going to go into newer areas like building ships” said Kalyani.

Bharat Forge is also looking for markets outside India for its military hardware. But, with riders. “Selling defence items to a responsible nation like India is easy. Now, there are many countries that buy weapons where we do not know what they do with it. India has never been an aggressor anywhere, so I want to sell to places where it is safe to sell and where it is advisable to sell.” said Kalyani.
 
Obviously there is a requirement of 500 more 155/39 ULH guns. But it is no free road for Kalyani. It will be a two way competition between M&M/BAE partnership and Kalyani for this order. Cost, weight and reliability all will matter.
It would be a dumb decision to go for M&M/BAE which is nothing but license manufacturing, more like a nut and bolt job. While the production model would be similar to L&T's K9 resulting is faster deliveries, it generates jobs only for a limited timeframe but doesn't help develop R&D
 
Dhanush as we of today has been really vigorously tested by Army which did it in a way that almost trying to find a way to not buy it. But it stood the tests.

Dhanush coming from a FH77 design is any day better than the GC45/G5 family son Bharat 52.

But at the end of the day , pricing will matter.


Around 19-20 tons of weight as of now. That is the issue. Should come down to something like 15 tons or so. Otherwise the present supply infrastructure will not be able to support it.

There might be a LSP in present Avatar, but for the larger 1440 gun order, it needs to shed weight.
Dhanush is 45cal, 38km range while ATAGS and Bharat 52 are 52 cal with 48km range. While they're both different platforms with varied specs, if ATAGS is brought down to 15tons, it's a no brainer IA will split the order between Tata and Kalyani
 
Dhanush is 45cal, 38km range while ATAGS and Bharat 52 are 52 cal with 48km range.
The first 114 will be 45, next 300 52 calibre. 52 is as of now under testing. Soon to undergo user trials. Expect DAC clearance for next 300 in 1st quarter of 2021 and deal signing with OFB by end of 2021 or 1st quarter of 2022.
It would be a dumb decision to go for M&M/BAE which is nothing but license manufacturing, more like a nut and bolt job. While the production model would be similar to L&T's K9 resulting is faster deliveries, it generates jobs only for a limited timeframe but doesn't help develop R&D
It would be, but as of today there is no rule against it. As per MoD that M777 would still be made in India for India and the world.

PS: More than 52 towed one I actually want the ULH both titanium and steel one to be tested and certified soon personally.
 
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I think IA should consider kalyani's 105 sph too, tye gun weighs less than a tonnes. Our ofb gun weighs 3.5 tonnes.

105mm kalyani gun is the perfect recipe against chinese in lafakh. It can be fielded in numbers and have high mobility. Hope IA stop its new romance with light tank in favor of 105mm kalyani gun.
105mm on a 4x4 mobile platform with under 2 tons weight and around 15-20km range , totally worth investing.

Even the South Koreans are doing something similar taking their 105mm towed guns and adding them on trucks.
 

ATAGS is ultra modern artillery when compares ti Bharat52, but IA is unhappy with this due to weight. 18T is way less than Bofors 30T, later one is considered to be the Worlds best self propelled artillery.
Unlike how it all worked in IA's favor to kill any indigenous project to favor foreign products for kickbacks, ATAGS and other artillery systems now fall under the embargo list. Let's see how IA will be able to circumvent that situation