Yes, I had asked that the numbers seem low. Someone pointed out that 155/39 MGS will likely be bought too for Himalayas.
Let's see.
Let's see.
The point of these guns is they can be air lifted by Mi-17s. Dunno how well the Garuda will work out in replacing this requirement, the Mi-27 cannot carry it. We will need far more Chinooks and M777/ULGs instead.
More Chinooks are wanted but the govt is sitting on the proposal.
For the ULHs, Kalyani again has a solution.
But for any large order Army wants to have a competition, so no questions are raised. They might ask Mahindra to send an offer for M777. But let's wait as no RFI for any follow on ULHs has been given out. It seems that it will progress once the 145 guns are fully delivered.
The Chinook quantity I'm talking about needs to be massive to replace the Mi-17+LFG combo. A squadron for each sector in the mountains, I'd say. That's at least 5 squadrons worth.
BAE was recently talking about offering a 52cal version of the M777.
BAE Systems signs agreement with PTC Industries to produce 155mm Ultra-Lightweight Howitzer titanium castings
BAE Systems & PTC Industries have signed an agreement to manufacture titanium castings for the Indian 155mm M777 Ultra-Lightweight Howitzer (ULH) at PTC Industries’ production facility in Lucknow, Uttar Pradesh, India.
As for Kalyani, I think IA's main interest is in the heavier steel version which cannot be air-lifted.
In a way, I'm happy that the IA is now spoilt for choice, unlike before.
Government is not siting, they are sleeping on each defense procurment proposals. Antony's time was far better than that of what we are seeing now, atleast during that time only Pakistan was irritant to us.
We should see some RFPs by next FY start for more artillery. We are already behind the K9 thing. It was said that atleast 100 will be ordered in def expo but we have nothing in hand.The Chinook quantity I'm talking about needs to be massive to replace the Mi-17+LFG combo. A squadron for each sector in the mountains, I'd say. That's at least 5 squadrons worth.
BAE was recently talking about offering a 52cal version of the M777.
BAE Systems signs agreement with PTC Industries to produce 155mm Ultra-Lightweight Howitzer titanium castings
BAE Systems & PTC Industries have signed an agreement to manufacture titanium castings for the Indian 155mm M777 Ultra-Lightweight Howitzer (ULH) at PTC Industries’ production facility in Lucknow, Uttar Pradesh, India.www.baesystems.com
As for Kalyani, I think IA's main interest is in the heavier steel version which cannot be air-lifted.
In a way, I'm happy that the IA is now spoilt for choice, unlike before.
Hopefully we sign the K9 at the very minimum soon.
Money is a problem.
More Chinook is not an option, so does M777 which are indeed light but reliability of gun barrel in mass firing is in question,
"KEEP IN MIND INDIAN ARMY USE 155MM IN BATTERIES NOT AS INDEPENDENT FIRE SUPPORT ASSET", exception can be certain cases during Kargil war but long forgotton now, "People must observe Hardware but never forget training & tactics along user mindset !!",
M777 is not meant to be used in mass firing, Army is happy around upgraded M46 compare to M777s, Since they present practices was not failed and challenged against better ( Like Chinese ) the old habits will stay strong, ah Money was never an issue..
Adding: About Chinooks, MI26 were soon to be redeployed may be in 6 months or less..
"KEEP IN MIND INDIAN ARMY USE 155MM IN BATTERIES NOT AS INDEPENDENT FIRE SUPPORT ASSET", exception can be certain cases during Kargil war but long forgotton now, "People must observe Hardware but never forget training & tactics along user mindset !!",
M777 is not meant to be used in mass firing, Army is happy around upgraded M46 compare to M777s, Since they present practices was not failed and challenged against better ( Like Chinese ) the old habits will stay strong, ah Money was never an issue..
Adding: About Chinooks, MI26 were soon to be redeployed may be in 6 months or less..
Thats what i am saying, we are behind in each and everything. Only one thing we rushed to buy, thats s400 and it turned out nothing but a hyped toy.
Regarding money shortage, you cannot made this excuse, we are fifth largest economy. If Poland buying weapons as if they are in middle of WW3,if bankrupted Pakistan do it then we must find fund for our defense.
I think US military had extensively used M777 very effectively & successfully in Afghanistan & Iraq, then what exclusive reliability issue IA is facing? AFAIK IA dont have any issues with reliability of M777( i may be wrong too).More Chinook is not an option, so does M777 which are indeed light but reliability of gun barrel in mass firing is in question,
"KEEP IN MIND INDIAN ARMY USE 155MM IN BATTERIES NOT AS INDEPENDENT FIRE SUPPORT ASSET", exception can be certain cases during Kargil war but long forgotton now, "People must observe Hardware but never forget training & tactics along user mindset !!",
M777 is not meant to be used in mass firing, Army is happy around upgraded M46 compare to M777s, Since they present practices was not failed and challenged against better ( Like Chinese ) the old habits will stay strong, ah Money was never an issue..
Adding: About Chinooks, MI26 were soon to be redeployed may be in 6 months or less..
And there are videos available in net on M46 firing, after each fire the recoil experienced with this gun is ridiculously huge. If IA is going with M46, either by desperation due to non availability of funds from government or some random officer wants promotion by showing to the top brass that " he made a fleet of obsolete weapons to a deadly one & its still useful in battlefield ".
K9 should get the go-ahead this FY itself. It's a repeat order after all, less red tape.
More Chinook is not an option, so does M777 which are indeed light but reliability of gun barrel in mass firing is in question,
"KEEP IN MIND INDIAN ARMY USE 155MM IN BATTERIES NOT AS INDEPENDENT FIRE SUPPORT ASSET", exception can be certain cases during Kargil war but long forgotton now, "People must observe Hardware but never forget training & tactics along user mindset !!",
M777 is not meant to be used in mass firing, Army is happy around upgraded M46 compare to M777s, Since they present practices was not failed and challenged against better ( Like Chinese ) the old habits will stay strong, ah Money was never an issue..
Adding: About Chinooks, MI26 were soon to be redeployed may be in 6 months or less..
The point I was making is the Mi-17+LFG combo is not easily replaced. The alternative would be Chinook + M777 combo.
Anyway, M777 is assigned to regiments. So what do you mean by they cannot perform mass fires?
Wear and tear of M777 barrel is much faster than M46 Upgrades or Bofors, excess firing may cause crack in barrel same for everyone except in case of M777 it's faster and expensive..
That doesn't impact mass fire like you think it does. Due to its titanium build, the M777 sacrifices ruggedness for versatility, unlike other guns. Its advantage is it can actually access certain areas of the battlefield that other guns cannot. Especially behind enemy lines. Being able to bring a weapon to bear at a higher cost is a better option than getting caught in the open without one. LFG is a very low end replacement.
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Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions
What if there are sanctions on India? How are you suppose to replace Ge414 powerplant which we are putting in almost all of Indian built aircrafts. The F414 is a 10-year program. If we don't get sanctioned before that, and the program is successfully completed, and the ToT is complete, then it...
M777 gives us the option of ready replacements from the West, practically free. So we need to create infrastructure to support it in India. In Ukraine, they got the guns as is, and the minute the guns were damaged, which starts happening on the very first day due to CB fire, they got stuck.
Right now, we can only assemble the M777, but we need a production line set up, which BAE is ready to do with a follow-on order of 300 guns. They will manufacture the barrel too. So we will have experienced Indian hands fixing those guns, American and British citizens won't do it for us during a war.
The US operates 1000+ M777s, and some European countries are also bound to buy this gun. Experienced Indian hands, both civilian and military, and quick imports for attrition replacements are necessary in a fight with China.
There's the Excalibur advantage too. Not the capability itself, which is reproducible, but the numbers. After about 6 months or so, we will need 100,000 such shells supplied to us every month during war, affordable only via aid. As our gun inventory falls, we will need to make it up with precision to maintain intensity.
That's my point here, and also mentioned it quite well in #1,067
1 What India need is more K9 systems or lighter SPGH in 155 of 52cal
2. Training should be implement as sole fire support asset in dense Counter battery environment aided with drones,
3. India is on it's way to make it's own Excalibur GPS / INS Guided round which can be fired from Artillery systems which have digital FCS
4. Towed Artillery future is not bright except in less dense Counter Battery environment.
1 What India need is more K9 systems or lighter SPGH in 155 of 52cal
2. Training should be implement as sole fire support asset in dense Counter battery environment aided with drones,
3. India is on it's way to make it's own Excalibur GPS / INS Guided round which can be fired from Artillery systems which have digital FCS
4. Towed Artillery future is not bright except in less dense Counter Battery environment.
1. K9's mobility is limited in mountains compared to the M777's airlift capability. Also, it's used by a different set of units.
3. We will make our own and we can even have 80% of our inventory with it, but we need imports so we can use them after we use up what we have. We are talking about advanced ammo worth billions of dollars a month, this is not something we can afford. We need to make all our guns compatible with the Excalibur. Production quality of our stuff during wartime will be questionable as well.
4. Mixed baggage. We need both, until such time we can afford 100% MGS inventory. Right now, we cannot. So ATAGS, Bofors and Dhanush are self-propelled to compensate. But neither the K9/MGS nor other towed-guns can be airlifted. The entire point of the M777 is it can be airlifted. The question is if the IA thinks 7 regiments are enough or they need all 21-22 regiments they initially wanted.
If they want 300 more guns, then we will have to expand our Chinook inventory as well.
All major armies in the world are moving away from towed artillery. If Ukrain war showed anything, that's effectiveness of counter battery fire with the support of drones. It's not 1999 anymore, shoot and scoot is the only way forward.
IA need to buy large number of MSGs in favour of Towed artillery. PLA is already full of mobile artillery.
IA need to buy large number of MSGs in favour of Towed artillery. PLA is already full of mobile artillery.
The last proper conventional conflict between two conventional armies was Iraq invasion of Kuwait and US led push back.
Towed units are important, so are the mobile units. Its not the question of which is required, its about when the resource is used.
Ukraine is a learning that combined arms is the only way forward for a conventional defence force.
That is the full picture.
That is the full picture.
Combined arms is certainly the way forward. But that doesn't negate the fact that Towed artillery is getting toasted in Ukraine right now. In just 1 week, footages of Russia destroying atleast 10 stationary m777 artillery surfaced. Most of them were destroyed by "Lancet" kamikaze drones. That's an unsustainable loss.