Indian Army Artillery Systems : News and Updates

marich01 said:
MGS at the Pune expo, with ANI reporter on top

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It's ridiculous, the 80s into and 85s out. That's 165s, it will get killed. Similar figures for Archer is 15s and 60s. It needs 15s more to scoot.

IA's requirement is <70s. Archer has demonstrated 74s. ATAGS-MGS will probably take 180s. A towed gun gives better performance than that.

And why less than 70s, 'cause that's how fast a CB radar does its work. So the Archer has already left before the CB radar acquires its target. Otoh, the ATAGS-MGS is still gonna be around when enemy CB fire comes in, ie, around 160s.

And people wonder why we need to import.
 
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screambowl said:
What about the MBRLs? By the way aren't MBRL's more accurate than 155 mm shell?
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In many ways rocket artillery can replace tube arty, and it will be more effective. But both have their uses.

One of the biggest advantages of tube arty is it's far more accurate, so you can unleash firepower even 50m away from friendly troops, ie close support. You can sustain fire for much longer as well, 'cause rockets need to reload.

Rocket is great to take an enemy by surprise, ie, saturation attack. Most casualties occur during the initial volley, and rocket carrier more explosives. Then you follow that up with the sustained fire of guns meant for covering the assault troops. So you generally have a regiment or 2 of rockets and 2 or more regiments of guns supporting an infantry regiment conducting an assault.

Guns are better when on the defensive 'cause it can respond faster.

Both guided rockets and shells are equally accurate and equally expensive. A guided Pinaka costs $56000 versus less than $5000 for a dumb one. An Excalibur shell costs $100k, the same as a guided HIMARS GMLRS. A dumb shell costs around $1000.

Furthermore, the latest tube guns with automatic loading can fire as fast as rocket arty. The fastest is the new Russian Coalition-SV which can fire 12 rounds within 45s, the same as the Pinaka Mk1 out to the same range. So tube is overall cheaper in this case.
 
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Pune: DRDO scientist Shailesh Gavalkar says, "There are various technical parameters on which the gun systems are compared ...The indigenous Mounted Gun System being developed by DRDO is much better than other similar howitzers like the French, Israeli & others in terms of range, rate of fire, and weight-to-power ratio. The MGS can hit targets at more than 45 Kms and can fire 5-6 shells per minute."

 
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marich01 said:
Pune: DRDO scientist Shailesh Gavalkar says, "There are various technical parameters on which the gun systems are compared ...The indigenous Mounted Gun System being developed by DRDO is much better than other similar howitzers like the French, Israeli & others in terms of range, rate of fire, and weight-to-power ratio. The MGS can hit targets at more than 45 Kms and can fire 5-6 shells per minute."

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Except few places/circumstances, the future belongs to the Mounted Gun Systems versus classic towed guns. So I hope we induct these in thousands as it will allow our artillery men to shoot and scoot before counter battery fire.

Agility and maneuverability are the best measures of survivability here IMO.
 
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marich01 said:
Pune: DRDO scientist Shailesh Gavalkar says, "There are various technical parameters on which the gun systems are compared ...The indigenous Mounted Gun System being developed by DRDO is much better than other similar howitzers like the French, Israeli & others in terms of range, rate of fire, and weight-to-power ratio. The MGS can hit targets at more than 45 Kms and can fire 5-6 shells per minute."

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Weight?
 
randomradio said:
In many ways rocket artillery can replace tube arty, and it will be more effective. But both have their uses.

One of the biggest advantages of tube arty is it's far more accurate, so you can unleash firepower even 50m away from friendly troops, ie close support. You can sustain fire for much longer as well, 'cause rockets need to reload.

Rocket is great to take an enemy by surprise, ie, saturation attack. Most casualties occur during the initial volley, and rocket carrier more explosives. Then you follow that up with the sustained fire of guns meant for covering the assault troops. So you generally have a regiment or 2 of rockets and 2 or more regiments of guns supporting an infantry regiment conducting an assault.

Guns are better when on the defensive 'cause it can respond faster.

Both guided rockets and shells are equally accurate and equally expensive. A guided Pinaka costs $56000 versus less than $5000 for a dumb one. An Excalibur shell costs $100k, the same as a guided HIMARS GMLRS. A dumb shell costs around $1000.

Furthermore, the latest tube guns with automatic loading can fire as fast as rocket arty. The fastest is the new Russian Coalition-SV which can fire 12 rounds within 45s, the same as the Pinaka Mk1 out to the same range. So tube is overall cheaper in this case.
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In any case you have to wait another four years to have a decent artillery support including supply chain and manufacturing capability. This will also reduce your cost per unit and operational cost during skirmish and that is achievable. The forces are now willing to accept Indian made systems.
 
They are exploiting the loophole to participate under iddm. If this fraud is not stopped then it will kill all the indigenous systems. Aatmanirbharta has been turned into joke by these crooks.


This whole tgs & mgs drama is to import Israeli gun, since adani is the baap of modi so expect them to win this contract.

Hadd ho gayi dalali ki bc.
 
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Chain Smoker said:
They are exploiting the loophole to participate under iddm. If this fraud is not stopped then it will kill all the indigenous systems. Aatmanirbharta has been turned into joke by these crooks.


This whole tgs & mgs drama is to import Israeli gun, since adani is the baap of modi so expect them to win this contract.

Hadd ho gayi dalali ki bc.
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It depends on how "indigenous" is defined. Even DRDO doesn't follow your definition of indigenous. For example, Arjun is still using a foreign engine. And even if it did have an Indian engine, there are a lot of non-indigenous parts. Otoh, the army considers the T-90 to be more indigenous 'cause it uses a fully Indian-controlled engine.

So, as per the forces, indigenous is entirely dependent on what's under India's control. Arjun Mk1A is 55% indigenous, so it's 45% foreign. T-90 is 90% indigenous, so it's only 10% foreign. T-90 wins.

ATHOS will be 100% Indian. ATAGS is "more than 90%," so it's less indigenous than ATHOS.

So how do you expect the forces to react when even DRDO doesn't follow your definition of indigenous?

Did you know DRDO wanted to import a foreign hull for Zorawar? It was the IA that put a stop to it.
 
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Chain Smoker said:
They are exploiting the loophole to participate under iddm. If this fraud is not stopped then it will kill all the indigenous systems. Aatmanirbharta has been turned into joke by these crooks.


This whole tgs & mgs drama is to import Israeli gun, since adani is the baap of modi so expect them to win this contract.

Hadd ho gayi dalali ki bc.
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Its like reading PTI fans bitching on the pakisatan army. They lost hope. Just hilarious.
 
randomradio said:
It depends on how "indigenous" is defined. Even DRDO doesn't follow your definition of indigenous. For example, Arjun is still using a foreign engine. And even if it did have an Indian engine, there are a lot of non-indigenous parts. Otoh, the army considers the T-90 to be more indigenous 'cause it uses a fully Indian-controlled engine.

So, as per the forces, indigenous is entirely dependent on what's under India's control. Arjun Mk1A is 55% indigenous, so it's 45% foreign. T-90 is 90% indigenous, so it's only 10% foreign. T-90 wins.

ATHOS will be 100% Indian. ATAGS is "more than 90%," so it's less indigenous than ATHOS.

So how do you expect the forces to react when even DRDO doesn't follow your definition of indigenous?

Did you know DRDO wanted to import a foreign hull for Zorawar? It was the IA that put a stop to it.
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Which part of ATHOS is design and developed in India? You are talking of components. The requirement for 'indigenous' here is not that.
 
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randomradio said:
It depends on how "indigenous" is defined. Even DRDO doesn't follow your definition of indigenous. For example, Arjun is still using a foreign engine. And even if it did have an Indian engine, there are a lot of non-indigenous parts. Otoh, the army considers the T-90 to be more indigenous 'cause it uses a fully Indian-controlled engine.

So, as per the forces, indigenous is entirely dependent on what's under India's control. Arjun Mk1A is 55% indigenous, so it's 45% foreign. T-90 is 90% indigenous, so it's only 10% foreign. T-90 wins.

ATHOS will be 100% Indian. ATAGS is "more than 90%," so it's less indigenous than ATHOS.

So how do you expect the forces to react when even DRDO doesn't follow your definition of indigenous?

Did you know DRDO wanted to import a foreign hull for Zorawar? It was the IA that put a stop to it.
Click to expand...
We have multiple indigenous options available so we don't need foreign maal anymore. It will send very wrong message to all the companies who are investing on r&d, it will be against the spirit of aatmanirbharta.
 
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suryakiran said:
Which part of ATHOS is design and developed in India? You are talking of components. The requirement for 'indigenous' here is not that.
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The requirement is 50% by value of the entire system, so it's not difficult to use Indian IP to meet the threshold. For example, K9 Thunder is 100% Korean, but K9 Vajra is 50% Korean. Even though it was bought under a Buy Global program, it met the threshold for IDDM. And when it comes to an artillery gun, there are a lot of allied non-gun systems that can be indigenised, including the vehicles and electronics.

So, to meet the IDDM criteria, they will use 50% Indian IP, and then the Israelis will transfer the remaining 50% to India so the Indian industry has 100% control of the gun.

The advantage being national security trumps IP laws. So even if the ATHOS is sanctioned, we can still keep producing it. And this is what the forces value. Which is why a 70% ToT Rafale will have more value than a 60% TEDBF.

As for who will supply the parts, if Adani cannot, then L&T, Kalyani and TATA will. There's nothing stopping them from becoming subcontractors for a rival gun. It's like HAL producing Rafale's engine even if their F-15 JV with Boeing fails to win.

Another important criteria of IDDM is software indigenization. All foreign software must come with an indigenization roadmap. So the obviously more advanced FOEMs are forced to train Indian OEMs. This transfer is extremely invaluable.

This way the forces get the best tech money can buy and Indian companies benefit from it in the long term.

Screwdrivergiri projects are part of Buy and Make, like MRFA and P-75I. There is no real indigenization roadmap beyond the 50% threshold.
 
Chain Smoker said:
We have multiple indigenous options available so we don't need foreign maal anymore. It will send very wrong message to all the companies who are investing on r&d, it will be against the spirit of aatmanirbharta.
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As per GoI and MoD's official policy, if a foreign system meets the 50% Indian IP threshold, then it's considered an Indian system. Even if the core systems are foreign.
 

We are deliberately killing our indigenous industry.
 
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