RR is not ready to part with the ipr of adour engines used across jaguar n hawk fleets.
The technologies imported from France will be owned by France. It's wishful thinking to say that such technology will be parted with.
Indo-France Aero Engine Co-Development Program
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
The technologies imported from France will be owned by France. It's wishful thinking to say that such technology will be parted with.
There is a video back then in which RR representative is assuring IPR of new engine will be with India.
Clearly written know how, know why, with full autonomy on future development of newer engines using the technologies transferred.
Also written India is the only country to which these technologies will be transferred.....
There could be a few reasons though:
1. Either we are very close to cracking the technologies meant for Aero engines which is also shown by new rounds of flight testing being done in Russia.
Or
2. There is a lot on the table in terms of defence deals like 114 Rafales, 57 Rafale M, P75I, Barracuda nuclear submarines which can easily cross 50 billion dollars of business.
Or
3. After US pushing out France of Australian multi billion dollars deal want to pay US back by pushing US out of India. Which will hurt US as much as they did.
In any case if we do get what we want it will be good for us...
Good summation of points. To add to the above , looking into the future , let me bring in redundancy as well .
France's first loyalties would always be to it's European partners as demonstrated by it's tie up with them for the FCAS project but with Britain exiting EU & firmly lodging itself into the US camp further reinforced by AUKUS & it's European partners still dependant on the US for it's security & not always seeing eye to eye with the French on various issues including development of platforms it makes sense to hedge & have a Plan B .
One more point I forgot.
4. The world is moving towards adaptive cycle aero engines. GE, Rolls Royce, item 30, engine for fcas and tempest are/will be next generation engines and getting as much Mullah as possible from the existing technologies like M88 and EJ200 by transferring the technologies to India which India is about to crack in near future is good proposition. Hence head over heels by both Rolls-Royce and Snecma to transfer the technologies and earn huge amounts of money to fund future technologies for 6th gen fighter engines.
BTW M88 itself is as good as any 5th gen fighter engine with dual channel cooling and very low IR signature so can be a very good uprated 110kn engine for AMCA though would need more electrical power since AMCA mk2 will be 5.5 Gen fighter plane with DEW...
No clue about SAFRAN but RR is in a bad shape financially speaking & so is UK which means they've to think out of the box to stay afloat.
News of them tying up with the Japanese is indeed curious given the Japanese were well & truly into indigenous development of their own engine for their 5th Gen FA program. In any case it strengthens their hands in their negotiations with the GoI assuming the negotiations aren't complete.
I've heard news about our JV on this front & our collaborative partner is going to be made public in Defence Expo 2022.
Pls take due note of the date & it's salience.
@Gautam
Perhaps this is why HAL went in for indigenous development of the HTSE -1200 . In all fairness, I'm not aware of the scope of the JV which may not have included full ToT as in know how & know why but may have been a pure manufacturing JV.
Which in turn brings me to the present. Perhaps this too may turn out the way the previous JV was framed with HAL undertaking development of HTSE - 2400 / 3000 (?) after successful certification of the HTSE - 1200.
The French are offering technology that's a generation behind their own standards. When it comes to AMCA's engine, both UK and France are offering tech half a generation behind their own.
The Brits are working with the Japanese and Turks in their respective programs. So they probably have a deal for us that's better than what the French are offering, whereas the French could tie in other benefits in exchange that may not be to our liking.
If we enter into any Engine Technology Agreement , it is only going to be for AMCA
Now what they are offering has to be matched with our AMCA specifications
That is how TOT works in reality. Be it Safran or RR, no one is going to hand over their source of all profits. They are Engine manufacturers after all.
For example Adour engine even today is proving billions of dollars of RR and UK.
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It depends on the relationship we had in past and the amount of deals we had and the stake France had in India. Even then we had full autonomy on the numbers of engines we can manufacture and sell helicopters with the said engine to anyone across the world.
HAL acquired skills over the time building them so much so that they are now confident of designing newer engines on their own. What more you want. Same will happen again even with a few critical parts being manufactured by Safran we will get full autonomy and in future full confidence to take up newer designs it is good for us. Also you should remember all above points there's lot on stake for France this time around than earlier and also competition from UK and Rolls Royce to take care of. So France will have to put some meaningful things on the table to keep India interested...
That's 'cause our Kaveri agreements for LCA failed.
That's not difficult, since AMCA has a pretty conventional 5th gen airframe and carries quite a lot of fuel for its weight class, a little more than the MKI. The engine has a lot of leeway in terms of design. If each engine provides 50-100% more power than the EJ200 or M88-4E, it's a huge win.
If UK can do an agreement with Japan , we should also try for such a deal
That's the idea.
Rolls-Royce ready to co-develop, manufacture fighter aircraft engines in India
Rolls-Royce's India and South Asia president Kishore Jayaraman says co-development is in line with ‘atmanirbhar’ design and manufacturing initiative.
theprint.in
The closest ToT with modern aircraft engine we ever had and will ever have is with the Saturn AL31FP of Su30MKI.
Everyone else will help set up testing facilities, will act as advisors , will send technicians for speeding up certification processes and may provide a core or a component of core whoes rights will be continued to be held by then.
Nothing more will happen.
Helping us set up an environment which will help us churn out a product is what they are offering.
Do not mis-interpret this as any kind of ToT.
Any critical component which they will supply, their rights will be held by them. Not us.
You cannot develop a jet engine with few crore rupees, it does required huge investment.
Remember this engine was supposed to have nearly 15pc thrust increment. For Amca 110kn is enough.
@Picdelamirand-oil @Bon Plan @Amarante
Need your opinions
What core could they be talking about? Can the M88 core be pushed up to 125kN? As far as I know, the M88-4 ECO demonstrator did up to 90kN with a theoretical max of 105kN.
If not M88, then a new core?