Yes, it must be two phase , ie the f414 being produced in India need one agreement, and offer for developing/upgrading from any existing core with IPR issue is another, both will possibly need USA congress approval separately? All the development contract tenders that are indigenous & local , DRDO mentions IP rights will be of GoI solely. So this will be very interesting factor in deciding, along with cost. I suspect any announcement will be influenced by the election timescale given the nature of politics these days.
Indo-France Aero Engine Co-Development Program
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
Some very interesting points made here..
bharatkarnad.com
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Sources close to Snecma say it is offering a completely new engine that complies with stealth requirements. Reportedly, delivery of the engine will take 10 years from the signing of the contract. Safran is sweetening the offer by setting up a centre of excellence in gas turbine technology in India.
GE 414 (EDE?) versus new Safran engine — the larger strategic dynamic and calculations
[Prime Minister Modi and US President Biden in a deep clinch in Washington] Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s Munnabhai-type “jaddoo ki jhappi” is what, in my 2018 book (Staggering F…
bharatkarnad.com
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Modi’s Paris visit crucial for Indian aero engines
Sources close to Snecma say it is offering a completely new engine that complies with stealth requirements. Reportedly, delivery of the engine will take 10 years from the signing of the contract. Safran is sweetening the offer by setting up a centre of excellence in gas turbine technology in India.
Modi’s Paris visit crucial for Indian aero engines
The ground could be shifting with respect to India’s bold agenda to develop its own indigenous jet engines that will power Indian fighter jets in protecting Indian airspace.
Ahead of Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to France in 2015, sections of the Indian media had announced that New Delhi and Paris would reach a government-to-government agreement for buying 36 Rafale fighters for the Indian Air Force (IAF).
As predicted, Modi and French President Francois Hollande announced the controversial sale of 36 Rafales for Euro 7.8 billion.
As Modi prepares to visit Paris again on July 13, sections of the Indian media have announced that the government of France – now one of India’s closest strategic partners – has cleared French engine-maker Safran to jointly design, develop, test, manufacture and certify an engine to power India’s futuristic, fifth-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).
There will be controversy over an Indo-French engine for the AMCA. The relationship between India’s Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) and French firm, Safran (earlier called Snecma), was vitiated during fruitless years of discussions on co-developing an uprated Kaveri.
Snecma declined to share key technologies, such as single crystal blades and high temperature materials for the engine’s combustion chamber.
While the Safran engine might have found a use in the Tejas Mark 1, Mark 1A and Mark 2 fighters, the French company was reluctant to work with the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) – the DRDO laboratory that is developing the Kaveri engine for the Tejas.
Meanwhile, the first foreign original equipment manufacturer (OEM) to have offered to co-design and co-develop an engine for the AMCA is British firm, Rolls-Royce. The Rolls-Royce engine could also power the indigenous, twin-engine, deck-based fighter (TED-BF) that would operate off Indian aircraft carriers.
The Kaveri engine, spurned for years by Safran (Snecma), is slated to find a use in powering the DRDO’s high-performance autonomous vehicle, eponymously named the Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicle (UCAV).
The Kaveri’s 50 kiloNewtons (kN) thrust will suffice for the unmanned UCAV, but it does not have the performance and reliability to power the manned Tejas fighter.
Eventually, the Indian fighters will be equipped with US-built General Electric (GE) engines: The Tejas Mark 1 and 1A fighters will sport GE F-404IN engines. The IAF has signed a Rs 5,375 crore contract with GE for 99 F-404IN engines.
Meanwhile, the more powerful GE F-414 engines will power the Tejas Mark 2.
Over the coming decade, India’s military is likely to buy almost one thousand engines for fighter aircraft alone. These will include 228 engines for 114 multi-role fighters, 83 engines for 83 Tejas Mark 1A fighters, 126 for Tejas Mark 2 fighters, 294 engines for 147 twin-engine and 117 engines for 57 twin-engine Multi-Role Carrier Borne Aircraft.
Sources close to Snecma say it is offering a completely new engine that complies with stealth requirements. Reportedly, delivery of the engine will take 10 years from the signing of the contract. Safran is sweetening the offer by setting up a centre of excellence in gas turbine technology in India.
Modi will arrive in Paris on July 13, and will hold bilateral talks with the French president the same day. On July 14, Modi will watch the Bastille Day air force display. The IAF’s Rafale fighter will be participating in the fly-past.
Next Step For India, France Defence Is To Move Towards Co-Development: French Envoy Lenain
Exclusive Interview: Ambassador of France to India Emmanuel Lenain spoke on significance of PM Modi’s Paris visit & said homogenous Rafale fleet will enable greater synergies for Indian armed forces.
I know many would call this my 'rabid optimism', but I so wish that India and France collaborate on 6th gen VCE engines. We need to look ahead and plan ahead for an engine for our 6th gen HCA aka MKI replacement.
Our enemy is also going to field their 6th gen fighter somewhere in 2030s. By entering a JV with Safran for such engine would mean that we shall match or even exceed the capabilities of the Chinese 6th gen fighter.
@randomradio @Ashwin What say?
Our enemy is also going to field their 6th gen fighter somewhere in 2030s. By entering a JV with Safran for such engine would mean that we shall match or even exceed the capabilities of the Chinese 6th gen fighter.
@randomradio @Ashwin What say?
You have to ask why would they want to choose you? You don't have technical expertise to contribute. Money would be the only reason. So, can our nation invest such huge sum of money for a long term project? If yes then it's possible.
If at all french indo deal signed on amca engine,then it's just French are giving a helping hand to our mediocre engineers for money. It's not a collaboration .
Now for 6th gen engine, for collaboration,we must have something to offer which french doesn't have with them. As of now,we only can contribute delay & cost overun,thanks to our mediocre engineering power.
FWIW there are already preliminary studies related to a 6th generation engine happening, at least that is what DRDO/academia call it, very early stage. Our issue is material related knowledge & some niche tech like the core, the sort of stuff our manufacturing industry is yet to implement very well within the country. We are catching up on additive manufacturing, several investments are happening in upgrading aerospace mfg industry within the country. It takes time to reach a certain maturity threshold. During a seminar recently 2 months ago, TIDCO presentation had a slide which described the aim to evolve short term by partnering, learning about subsystem making, gradually apply knowledge & mature industrial base
to platform level.
to platform level.
We need a 6th gen program first. Gotta wait until the mid 2030s. I just call it the post-AMCA fighter meant to replace the MKI.
aren't 6th Generation supposed to be variable cycle engines where we can contribute since we have the expertise from the design of Kaveri engine? I assumed that we lack a proper facility to develop an engine which France can provide and obviously money but not only money.
6th Gen engine is supposed to three stream VCE with very high electrical output and internal generator.
Yeah definitely variable cycle engine, was mentioned in a previous webinar from where I posted pics before.
Issue is not we solely offer money, we do not. You look at seminar guests lists & you will find loads of Indians in top position everywhere, even US military school level. Boeing, Lockheed and others all have many Indians at top job category. I will try to keep a record in future but a lot of important position in the western MIC are Indians, like actual project directors, futuristic weapon systems research director level people. So capability wise we are not far off.
Its like the situation of semiconductor usage at DRDO vs actual Military demand. DRDO SSPL is very much self sufficient for semicon for own use, but that would not meet the huge demand at service level. Who is to provide there? Our industry, who are not up to the level needed. So this shortfall is mitigated by importing stuff. The same reason partially applies here imo.
Issue is not we solely offer money, we do not. You look at seminar guests lists & you will find loads of Indians in top position everywhere, even US military school level. Boeing, Lockheed and others all have many Indians at top job category. I will try to keep a record in future but a lot of important position in the western MIC are Indians, like actual project directors, futuristic weapon systems research director level people. So capability wise we are not far off.
Its like the situation of semiconductor usage at DRDO vs actual Military demand. DRDO SSPL is very much self sufficient for semicon for own use, but that would not meet the huge demand at service level. Who is to provide there? Our industry, who are not up to the level needed. So this shortfall is mitigated by importing stuff. The same reason partially applies here imo.
True, for example the DGA program director for Rafale F5 is named Arvind Badrinath.
« La préparation du standard F5 du Rafale se lance aujourd'hui avec le lancement de l'étude de développement de son nouveau radar, le RBE2 XG », Arvind Badrinath, directeur de programme RAFALE à la DGA
« La préparation du standard F5 du Rafale se lance aujourd'hui avec le lancement de l'étude de développement de son nouveau radar, le RBE2 XG », Arvind Badrinath, directeur de programme RAFALE à la DGA
But that's the thing, too: these Indians are working for Boeing, Lockheed, or the DGA. You'd need these guys to work in your own companies and administrations instead of working abroad for foreign interests. That's where India needs to make further progress. Not so much a question of skill acquisition but of skill retention.
As per an old report around 36% scientists working in NASA are Indians. One of my uncle also worked there, married an American woman and settled in US permanently.
Of all the things we lack, talent isn't one of them.
What I am arguing is, let's design and develop the engine first and then design the fighter around that engine.
True, what is even more important is that many are in project lead, project director level. So its not just average joe in an office. If anything, the sensitive trade secret that Western mic guard, lot of that have major contribution from people and scientists all over the world.
Where we lack definitely, is test setup, infra, industry capability etc areas.
GTRE is coming up with some engine test facility , saw a tender today, had entire site plans. Just could not understand for what tbh as I do not know enough.
We also need a flying test bed to test all our new engines. Maybe we should modify a Su-30 to test all our next gen engines!
RR did an experiment with a generator driven by the shaft of HP compressor, later GE did the same experiment in which they extracted energy from the LP turbine and they had hit 250KW from inbred generator and another 750KW from the LP Turbine making a total of 1MW as electical energy extration from the engine itself. This enery is more than suffivient to take out targets from LEO using Lasers and yet fly at hypersonic speeds which allow the aircraft to stay in orbit for couple of days. Our own Spaceplane is designed to do this using NISAR to pick up targets flying within the atmospehere or in LEO.
Need a richer market for that. Most of our population today is teetering just above the poverty line after all, so the internal market is still underdeveloped to tap such talent.
That's fake stuff.
Right now all of our efforts will be focused on Dry Kaveri and AMCA engine.