Infantry Combat Vehicles of Indian Army

Hydra said:
Yeah, IN navy atleast should have asks for 650 mm torpedo tubes for P75I ,in order to accomodate brahmos.

And I do agree that our armed forces will go blindly for unnecessary gears, just like IA new obsession with light tanks. Even heavily armored tank itself is getting obsolete slowly,now IA wants lightbtanks,only God know how many lightbtanks will get knocked out innthe first few hours war. Instead IA should spend money on 105mm howitzers & Oshkosh type armored troop carriers in Ladakh.
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Tank battle is a way old concept, do you think these so called lightbtanks will survive the day in the new era of 3rd gen anti tank missiles & attack helicopters ? I think no. Even the heavy weight like mighty M1Abrams will find it difficult to survive.
What IA need in Ladakh is 105mm high mobility howitzers for direct fire. Kalyani have a product,go for it and increase the inventory of Apaches now ( I don't bet on LCH,a toothless helicopter).
Picdelamirand-oil said:
During the 1965 Indo-Pak War, India deployed AMX-13 Tanks in the Chumb area and were used in the Battle of Asal Uttar. These tank are very light, there are better than nothing... :)
Could be equipped with 105 mm Tank gun.
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Great, you bring 60 year old scenario.
 
Building a light tank is possible, but for all purposes with any chance of survival, it will weight no less than ~35 tons. The Germans did it for Argentina. It is possible. I am not saying its not.

What I am saying is that the moment it is 35+ tons, it means all the places it can go, a T72CIA can too. That's where it looses it's utility.

The 2nd stage of Project Rhino to upgrade the T72CIA will see addition of 2nd generation heavier DRDO ERA MK1 to the tank. And a 1000hp V92S2 engine in all probability.

It's gun and ammo as of today is considered good enough to take down the T80UD tanks of Pakistan Army. Yes it's old, but it's utility hasn't deminised. Yes a gun capable of firing longer afpds rounds will be really good and helpful in taking down the VT4 tanks Pakistan is receiving now.

@Ashwin please move the last few posts including this one to Indian Army thread
 
Hydra said:
Tank battle is a way old concept, do you think these so called lightbtanks will survive the day in the new era of 3rd gen anti tank missiles & attack helicopters ? I think no. Even the heavy weight like mighty M1Abrams will find it difficult to survive.
What IA need in Ladakh is 105mm high mobility howitzers for direct fire. Kalyani have a product,go for it and increase the inventory of Apaches now ( I don't bet on LCH,a toothless helicopter).

Great, you bring 60 year old scenario.
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M777 Chinook combo and Indian Light Field Gun and Mi17 combo is a real good thing we have. We need to invest in more Chinooks and a modern and lighter replacement for 105mm guns.

SPHs are having the advantage of mobilty. And it gets nullified in those regions.

What China has (155/52 Truck Mounted Guns and ZTQ 15 and IFVs ) are all in the Tibet Plateau region and nothing near LAC or the Karakoram. What they have is their 122mm and 130mm towed artillery and 122mm MBRLs systems near us.
 
Picdelamirand-oil said:
Like Jaguar?
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The problem is the 105/120mm gun version is yet to be developed, it only comes with a 40mm gun. If IA is in a hurry to get light tanks with wheels, then only operational systems with 105/120mm guns will be considered. So Jaguar will have some competition from many countries for the wheeled-gun segment. It's also unclear if amphibious capability is required.

IA wants 200 wheeled guns and 100 tracked guns.

Among tracked ones, the only available option is the new Russian Sprut-SDM1 built from the BMD-4M. But it has very poor armour.

All 300 are meant to be used by our Mountain Strike Corps, so it's meant for going on the offensive inside Tibet.
 
vstol Jockey said:
The best solution will be to use the BMP-2 with Kalyani 105mm soft recoil gun as light tank. with beefed up composite armour and ERA.
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And the BMP-3M?

BMP-3M
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– KBP and Kurganmashzavod have upgraded the vehicle with a new engines and turret with a new ATGM system 9K116-3 Basnya. The upgraded vehicle is called the BMP-3M and the new Bakhcha-U turret which includes a new automatic fire control system with ballistic computer, new SOZH gunner's sight with laser rangefinder and an ATGM guidance channel, thermal imager, TKN-AI commander's vision device with laser illuminator and new ammunition loading system for ATGM. The BMP-3M is also able to fire various ammunition types, including new 100 mm laser-guided projectiles, new 100 mm HE-FRAG (high explosive fragmentation) rounds and new 30 mm APDS (armour piercing discarding sabot) rounds. Its additional auxiliary armour shields are effective against 12.7 mm armour-piercing rounds from a range of 50 m. Explosive reactive armour is available as an option. The new uprated engine is the UTD-32, which is rated at 660 hp. There are actually several different M models, some fitted with additional armour, "Arena-E" or "Shtora-1" active protection systems, air conditioner etc
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en.wikipedia.org

BMP-3 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
vstol Jockey said:
The best solution will be to use the BMP-2 with Kalyani 105mm soft recoil gun as light tank. with beefed up composite armour and ERA.
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The one that was tried.

DRDOlighttank.jpg
 
Our Arjun is a direct inspiration from Challenger 2 and Leo 2. If we do seriously want a 30 ton tank, then straight away go to the Germans. They helped build the TAM for Argentina.

Get them to add a 120mm smoothbore instead of just 105mm rifled.
 
Ankit Kumar said:
Our Arjun is a direct inspiration from Challenger 2 and Leo 2. If we do seriously want a 30 ton tank, then straight away go to the Germans. They helped build the TAM for Argentina.

Get them to add a 120mm smoothbore instead of just 105mm rifled.
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Where's the time for all these experiments? Right now, we're caught in a situation where our LCH's are not in production & even if they resume production the ones that'd come out will be inadequately armed. Ditto for the Rudras. Apaches & Chinooks too aren't in adequate numbers. Rafales are just being inducted. I doubt the latter will have a decisive role to play here.

Then there's the issue of MGS. Inadequate numbers in ULH, perhaps SPH too. The issue with Light Tanks seems to have been adequately covered highlighting our Inadequacies there too.

We seem to have enough to force a stalemate with great difficulty on the LAC nothing to mark our superiority there or even take the fight to the Chinese.
 
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_Anonymous_ said:
Where's the time for all these experiments? Right now, we're caught in a situation where our LCH's are not in production & even if they resume production the ones that'd come out will be inadequately armed. Ditto for the Rudras. Apaches & Chinooks too aren't in adequate numbers. Rafales are just being inducted. I doubt the latter will have a decisive role to play here.

Then there's the issue of MGS. Inadequate numbers in ULH, perhaps SPH too. The issue with Light Tanks seems to have been adequately covered highlighting our Inadequacies there too.

We seem to have enough to force a stalemate with great difficulty on the LAC nothing to mark our superiority there or even take the fight to the Chinese.
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Never have we actually intended to have a successful offensive against Chinese. All our preparations have been to hold onto a Chinese onslaught untill international pressure gets them to ceasefire. Even our strike corps units are only to cross the LAC and take control of important points so as to deny the Chinese forces acess to us, or by out manuvering them cut off the advancing Chinese formation from the rear. How do you expect to have offensive weapons in place if for last 58 years we are only preparing to hold onto the onslaught?
Our Gangetic Planes is our underbelly fully unprotected, a PLA strike formation thrust through Nepal will mean total destruction.
 
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Ankit Kumar said:
Never have we actually intended to have a successful offensive against Chinese. All our preparations have been to hold onto a Chinese onslaught untill international pressure gets them to ceasefire. Even our strike corps units are only to cross the LAC and take control of important points so as to deny the Chinese forces acess to us, or by out manuvering them cut off the advancing Chinese formation from the rear. How do you expect to have offensive weapons in place if for last 58 years we are only preparing to hold onto the onslaught?
Our Gangetic Planes is our underbelly fully unprotected, a PLA strike formation thrust through Nepal will mean total destruction.
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... And now whatever li'l we planned by way of an offensive in the shape of the MSC is stillborn too.

PLA strike formation thru the Nepal corridor is a bit of a fantasy. To begin with its not that easy, secondly it's one thing to ingress & quite another to hold on. That's precisely why the PLA didn't stick around in Arunachal Pradesh in 1962 or precipitate more action in Sumdurong Chu / Waldong in 1987.

Their aims in the NE seem defined. It's Tawang & a few strategic points there. The latter with Sikkim. It's only in the Western sector that their claims seem nebulous now.
 
IMO the Chinese threat of armour should be addressed in 2 ways

1. Symmetric : expand the threat envelope horizontally

Eg.
Light tank from drdo and L&T armed with cockerill 120 mm gun , or/combination

Kestrel mounted with cockerill 120 mm gun , or/combination

Kestrel with 120 mm automated mortar with smart top attack munitions , or/combination

BMP 2 based NAMICA .

2. Asymmetric : expand the envelope vertically while simultaneously using assets which are asymmetric horizontally.

Induct helicopters armed with ATGMs ,

LMVs armed with fire and forget ATGMs / munitions and associated sensors which can provide overhead surveillance and target acquisition eg. Tactical UAVs / mast mounted optronic sensors for hit and run etc possibly reverse slope targetting.

Kalyani 105 mm mounted go anywhere light vehicles for use in both indirect as well as direct fire modes .

Kalyani motorised SPH with cargo rounds filled with top attack munitions.

Current situation can be addressed if we judiciously select the appropriate assets as available in short time as a hedge to current requirements while acquiring others progressively.


indian army has a very defensive mindset . If one wants to win wars , it is necessary not only to address the threat on a peer to peer level but to hold overwhelming advantage with judicious use and selection of assets. Blindly copying the enemy in a tit for tat , will only restrict us - we end up falling in their trap.
 
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hellbent said:
IMO the Chinese threat of armour should be addressed in 2 ways

1. Symmetric : expand the threat envelope horizontally

Eg.
Light tank from drdo and L&T armed with cockerill 120 mm gun , or/combination

Kestrel mounted with cockerill 120 mm gun , or/combination

Kestrel with 120 mm automated mortar with smart top attack munitions , or/combination

BMP 2 based NAMICA .

2. Asymmetric : expand the envelope vertically while simultaneously using assets which are asymmetric horizontally.

Induct helicopters armed with ATGMs ,

LMVs armed with fire and forget ATGMs / munitions and associated sensors which can provide overhead surveillance and target acquisition eg. Tactical UAVs / mast mounted optronic sensors for hit and run etc possibly reverse slope targetting.

Kalyani 105 mm mounted go anywhere light vehicles for use in both indirect as well as direct fire modes .

Kalyani motorised SPH with cargo rounds filled with top attack munitions.

Current situation can be addressed if we judiciously select the appropriate assets as available in short time as a hedge to current requirements while acquiring others progressively.


indian army has a very defensive mindset . If one wants to win wars , it is necessary not only to address the threat on a peer to peer level but to hold overwhelming advantage with judicious use and selection of assets. Blindly copying the enemy in a tit for tat , will only restrict us - we end up falling in their trap.
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I think a defensive approach is the best approach until India gets its economy in order and takes domestic arms acquisition more seriously. Until those conditions are satisfied, I think beefing up security and infrastructure on the border, operating heavier tanks within India's boundaries (defeat/deter Chinese armor incursions) and handing out ATGMs & MANPADs to soldiers like its candy are the only realistic options for India to challenge China.
 
Ginvincible said:
I think a defensive approach is the best approach until India gets its economy in order and takes domestic arms acquisition more seriously. Until those conditions are satisfied, I think beefing up security and infrastructure on the border, operating heavier tanks within India's boundaries (defeat/deter Chinese armor incursions) and handing out ATGMs & MANPADs to soldiers like its candy are the only realistic options for India to challenge China.
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Sir

There is no such thing as best time

There is no such thing as perfect option(s)

There is no such thing as perfect economy

There is no such thing as perfect MIC

If one were to wait for " perfect " there will be nothing left to be " perfect "

400 years of defensive mindset wouldn't go away in next 400 years and we will always wait for things to be perfect till next 4000 years.

Our mindset since last 400 years has been like a Undertaker we dig up graves supposedly for others but end up in it because we need to be safe so much so we get buried in it lol.
 
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hellbent said:
Sir

There is no such thing as best time

There is no such thing as perfect option(s)

There is no such thing as perfect economy

There is no such thing as perfect MIC

If one were to wait for " perfect " there will be nothing left to be " perfect "

400 years of defensive mindset wouldn't go away in next 400 years and we will always wait for things to be perfect till next 4000 years.

Our mindset since last 400 years has been like a Undertaker we dig up graves supposedly for others but end up in it because we need to be safe so much so we get buried in it lol.
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Where did I say "perfect", India's situation is hopelessly removed from perfect. I said "best" as in most feasible and realistic to work. Making battle plans and crafting scenarios where India could win a limited offensive is all fine and good, but we have to acknowledge the ground reality that India could never hope to win a long term conflict against China in its present state.

China is an industrial superpower on a unprecedented scale. India lacks the industry to produce weapons for such a conflict and its coffers for importing foreign gear will only last so long in any event.

India needs to get its house in order before embarking on any adventures, failure to do this will result in humiliation.
 
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