Israel-Hamas Conflict: Updates & Discussions

[LX1111]

A basic common sense is that in the era of planned economy, you cannot measure a country's development level through GDP. Just like if you use GDP to calculate the production level of the Soviet Union, if you want to measure the development level of both countries. You should rely more on industrial output value. Agricultural output value

Based on a quick check on Google, India's GDP was $37 billion in 1960 and $186B in 1980. China's was $60B and $190B.

In 1990, India was 320B and China was 360B. In 2000, 468B and China was 1200B. China was definitely ahead from 1980 onwards, and both countries saw massive devaluation of currencies from 1980. India saw more devaluation than China. From 1980, it was 4.5 times for China and 10 times for India. So the two times difference means, India's GDP is 6 times smaller by nominal terms and 3 times smaller by PPP terms, which is quite accurate.

So, without any significant currency fluctuations between 1960 and 1980, India grew faster than Mao's China (37 to 186 vs 60 to 190). And we consider India's growth rate during the time to be very bad, and China's performance was much worse than India's. So Mao was bad for China.

Your opinion does not match reality.

GDP is the calculation of transaction volume in the market. During Mao Zedong's era, China had no market at all. All the GDP of China you see now before 1980. All the data are speculated by later people. Economic development should be measured by physical factors such as steel production and electricity generation.

 

[randomradio]

I don't know why you are so interested in Journey to the West. These are fairy tales that only children in China read. The most influential book in China is the Book of Changes. It was written in the ninth century BC. 3000 years ago, this book had a huge impact in East Asia. All traditional Chinese philosophy and political thought originated from this book, including even traditional Chinese Confucianism. By the way. Indian Buddhism has little influence in China. The so-called Buddhist ideology in China is more of a part of Confucianism. For example, Zen, the most influential sect in China.

I Ching - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Okay, I know about the Book of Changes. But you mentioned theology, not philosophy.

As for Buddhism, you are talking about recent history. Buddhism was around in China for well over two thousand years and still is. There are at least around 20% adherents. This is what I'm talking about when Mao killed your culture.

 

[randomradio]

The emperor of the Qing Dynasty was the emperor of China. The Manchu people are a minority ethnic group in China. By the way, I am also a Manchu, just like the history of the Mughal Empire and other Muslim empires is a part of Indian history, the empire established by the ethnic minorities in northern China is also a part of Chinese history.
Britain itself is an island country. Actually, its strength doesn't seem strong today. Why can an island country defeat the traditional empire in Asia? What are the problems with China's cultural ideology, political system, and economy? This began with the Opium War in 1840. The question that all Chinese people are thinking about today. I think Indians have never thought about this matter before. They just believe that their colonization is a coincidence in history. There is no mistake in one's own religious culture. No improvement needed,

British guns and cannons were far superior. Industrial revolution meant their ability to communicate and transport troops and equipment were generations ahead. And having fought multiple wars all over the world, they were highly seasoned fighters.

Also, India wasn't fully united. A Hindu empire was still being formed when the British came in.

Lastly, proximity. India was a lot closer to Britain making it easier for them to reach India, similar to how China was conquered by the Mongols. So both India and China were conquered by foreign powers at one time or the other. Similarly, China was almost conquered by Japan. China escaped the fate of a colony because of the West and Soviet Union. Imagine what would have happened had the Japanese not provoked the US and were on friendly terms with the Soviet Union. You could very well have been speaking Japanese today.

India's fall to Britain and China's fall to Japan happened due to very similar reasons. Both countries were broken up at the time, and both our enemies were industrially far superior. The difference between India and Britain was much greater than between China and Japan as well, although it wouldn't have made a difference.

 

[randomradio]

In China. No one acknowledges that India was a socialist country during the Nehru era, and socialism meant eliminating the landlord class and the urban bourgeoisie. Concentrate the efforts of the whole society for productive labor. I don't think the Nehru eras fit this definition. The Nehru era was just the establishment of countless state-owned enterprises. And these state-owned enterprises have undoubtedly become tools of bureaucracy. In rural areas, large landlords are still preserved, and cities also retain many large financial groups. In a sense, this belongs to the feudal era, not the socialist era.
Isn't there anything in your so-called traditional culture that should be given up? For example, India's notorious practice of preventing intermarriage between different castes. Does this align with the equality advocated by socialism? Mao Zedong certainly caused some damage to traditional Chinese culture. But he even eliminated the feudal and superstitious aspects of traditional Chinese culture.

You are explaining communism, not socialism.

Socialism only concerned with businesses being owned by govt and not privately. And in India, the most important sectors were owned by the govt. And yes, we abolished the landlord system in 1951 and distributed private land to the poor. Large landlords only own 15% of India's farmlands today. The rest are owned by small farmers because of the distribution.

A lot of our society's problems are due to lack of education, not due to maliciousness. While intercaste and interfaith marriages are not encouraged privately, it's illegal to stop such marriages. But it's mainly practiced in arranged marriages. If you can find your own partner, then it doesn't matter for most families. Only very orthodox families have a problem. Overall, the caste problems are slowly disappearing.

The problem for China is Mao simply destroyed even the good aspects of your culture. Now your country is pretty much cultureless, and one day that's gonna really damage your society, just like it's damaging Western society today. It's very simple. If you destroy culture, then biology takes over. And human choices via biology are really, really bad for society at large. That's how civilizations have fallen; Greece, Rome, you name it.

 

[randomradio]

A basic common sense is that in the era of planned economy, you cannot measure a country's development level through GDP. Just like if you use GDP to calculate the production level of the Soviet Union, if you want to measure the development level of both countries. You should rely more on industrial output value. Agricultural output value

GDP is the calculation of transaction volume in the market. During Mao Zedong's era, China had no market at all. All the GDP of China you see now before 1980. All the data are speculated by later people. Economic development should be measured by physical factors such as steel production and electricity generation.

Then by default China's economy was much, much larger than India's even before the Mao era. So there's no comparison already.

Anyway, as far as I've ready about Mao, his contribution to the economy was negligible. It was all the work of Deng Xiaoping and Lu Shaoqi, but mostly Deng. His main contribution was acting as a figurehead for the CCP and killing regular Chinese people with harebrained schemes like the Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution and the Great Chinese Famine.

 

[LX1111]

Then by default China's economy was much, much larger than India's even before the Mao era. So there's no comparison already.

Let me give you the simplest example. In 1949, India's steel production was 1.36 million tons. During childhood, China's steel production was only 158000 tons. Under Mao Zedong's governance. China was in 1965. The steel production has already exceeded 10 million tons. And India's steel production exceeded 10 million tons by 1983

 

[BMD]

Hamas won't like Hezbollah leader's speech, experts say

In his first speech since Hamas' Oct. 7 attack, Hezbollah chief Hassan Nasrallah distanced his group from the attack on Israel but warned that the U.S. would "pay the price" for the war spilling over into a regional conflict.

us.yahoo.com

 

[LX1111]

Socialism only concerned with businesses being owned by govt and not privately. And in India, the most important sectors were owned by the govt. And yes, we abolished the landlord system in 1951 and distributed private land to the poor. Large landlords only own 15% of India's farmlands today. The rest are owned by small farmers because of the distribution

I don't know how the Indian government misinterprets communism and socialism in education. But my education tells me. The only symbol of socialism is public ownership of the means of production. Not how many state-owned enterprises you have built. France has more state-owned enterprises than India. Can we say that France is a socialist country?

 

[LX1111]

A lot of our society's problems are due to lack of education, not due to maliciousness. While intercaste and interfaith marriages are not encouraged privately, it's illegal to stop such marriages. But it's mainly practiced in arranged marriages. If you can find your own partner, then it doesn't matter for most families. Only very orthodox families have a problem. Overall, the caste problems are slowly disappearing

I have seen a picture. A female college student from Delhi University in India made it clear during the marriage proposal that she would only accept people of her own caste. This indicates that education cannot eliminate caste differences. Moreover, in ancient India, there were well educated princes and nobles. Won't they follow the caste system? So education is not a factor affecting the caste system.

 

[LX1111]

The problem for China is Mao simply destroyed even the good aspects of your culture. Now your country is pretty much cultureless, and one day that's gonna really damage your society, just like it's damaging Western society today. It's very simple. If you destroy culture, then biology takes over. And human choices via biology are really, really bad for society at large. That's how civilizations have fallen; Greece, Rome, you name it.

Communicate with Indians. I increasingly feel the superiority of Chinese education over India. There is nothing materialistic about Indian education. What is culture? Culture is determined by the political and economic conditions at that time. Of course, modern China will have its own modern civilization. Instead of repeating a culture that has already passed away in the past. The civilization of Indians is nothing more than the garbage of their ancestors who have already passed away.

 

[LX1111]

Anyway, as far as I've ready about Mao, his contribution to the economy was negligible. It was all the work of Deng Xiaoping and Lu Shaoqi, but mostly Deng. His main contribution was acting as a figurehead for the CCP and killing regular Chinese people with harebrained schemes like the Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution and the Great Chinese Famine

Very normal. The vast majority of Indians have ignored the construction of China before 1978. Mao Zedong's greatest achievement in the economy is.from China a simple agricultural country to establish it as an elementary industrial country. You can find out the relevant steel production and the power generation. Mao Zedong's economic achievements were far more than 10 times greater than those of India.

 

[randomradio]

Let me give you the simplest example. In 1949, India's steel production was 1.36 million tons. During childhood, China's steel production was only 158000 tons. Under Mao Zedong's governance. China was in 1965. The steel production has already exceeded 10 million tons. And India's steel production exceeded 10 million tons by 1983

It's not a good metric to follow because India's cities were not destroyed during the war. That's why GDP is considered.

 

[randomradio]

I don't know how the Indian government misinterprets communism and socialism in education. But my education tells me. The only symbol of socialism is public ownership of the means of production. Not how many state-owned enterprises you have built. France has more state-owned enterprises than India. Can we say that France is a socialist country?

There are different kinds of socialism. China follows Marxist-Leninst policies, India does not. But we have laws for social equality and creation of wealth for all. Hence the formation of SoEs.

 

[randomradio]

I have seen a picture. A female college student from Delhi University in India made it clear during the marriage proposal that she would only accept people of her own caste. This indicates that education cannot eliminate caste differences. Moreover, in ancient India, there were well educated princes and nobles. Won't they follow the caste system? So education is not a factor affecting the caste system.

It's personal preference. Anybody can have a personal preference that is discriminatory because it's easier for people to culturally associate with other people of the same caste. That's why doctors tend to marry doctors, engineers tend to marry engineers etc.

You have a wrong impression of caste. It is interchangeble. It only became rigid recently and then associated with a family name primarily under British rule. Otherwise a single family can have children of multiple castes, just like how today a father today can have a doctor, a soldier and a carpenter as sons. It became rigid because education became expensive. Multiple invasions destroyed our education sector, and fathers had to take up the education of sons. A blacksmith's son also became a blacksmith and so did his son. So a whole lineage was born under the same profession and that's how caste became rigid. Before this destruction, a person's caste was a choice. And students would go to a teacher and then learn a discpline of choice. We had some of the biggest and oldest universities in the world.

University of ancient Taxila - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Nalanda mahavihara - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So a prince or a king being of a particular caste when the system was fine was all right. Unlike most civilizations, we took professionalism very seriously. So a Brahmin would be a scholar whereas a Kshatriya would be a soldier and they would dedicate their lives to their professions. So a Kshatriya would train to fight from the time he could walk, and a Brahmin would hit the books from the time he can begin reading. And people choosing partners from the same castes or professions was normal. It's the case even today globally.

 

[Innominate]

When TF did this become the India vs China thread?

 

[randomradio]

Communicate with Indians. I increasingly feel the superiority of Chinese education over India. There is nothing materialistic about Indian education. What is culture? Culture is determined by the political and economic conditions at that time. Of course, modern China will have its own modern civilization. Instead of repeating a culture that has already passed away in the past. The civilization of Indians is nothing more than the garbage of their ancestors who have already passed away.

This is a debate the West experimented with and have lost. Now you are going to have the same debate and will also lose. Culture is what separates humans from animals.

Culture is basically the rules and regulations you follow and pass on to your children in order to maintain a functioning society. And this was created over thousands of years via massive trial and error and accumulation of thousands of years of knowledge and sacrifice of our ancestors.

And when you lose culture, you lose respect for others and that is reciprocated.

I increasingly feel the superiority of Chinese education over India. There is nothing materialistic about Indian education.

Can you provide examples.

 

[randomradio]

Very normal. The vast majority of Indians have ignored the construction of China before 1978. Mao Zedong's greatest achievement in the economy is.from China a simple agricultural country to establish it as an elementary industrial country. You can find out the relevant steel production and the power generation. Mao Zedong's economic achievements were far more than 10 times greater than those of India.

It's not Mao's achievements. It's Deng Xiaoping's. He brought the main changes.

All that Mao did was use Soviet aid to kickstart industry, and then killed it. Deng had to save China after the Seven Thousand Cadres Conference. And because Deng was successful, Mao stepped in once again to kill millions of Chinese in the Cultural Revolution until he died.

Mao's initial investment into industry was just a byproduct of war, especially the Korean War. It's nothing special.

 

[randomradio]

When TF did this become the India vs China thread?

Israel's war is boring.

But... @Ashwin. Kindly move the offending posts to a more appropriate thread.

People's Republic of China (PRC) : News & Discussions

https://x.com/ManojNaravane/status/1701583837174841367?s=20 Loving the change & aggressive tone of our military leadership 🙂 https://x.com/ManojNaravane/status/1701583837174841367?s=20 Corrections required, the whole thing is Communist-occupied China, courtesy of a Russian-backed coup. Taiwan...

www.strategicfront.org

 

[randomradio]

These young guys wanna turn Europe into the next Islamic caliphate.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720892077137953263

 

[Saaho]

I'm laughing to death. During Mao Zedong's era, China's industrial growth averaged 11.3% per year, steel production increased by 20 times, coal production increased by 30 times, power generation increased by 18 times, and even agriculture, which was not highly valued, increased by three times. Fertilizer production also increased by 140 times,

None of the figures from Mao's era are reliable. In Mao's era farms were producing in excess yet people were dying in famine. Mao's rule of fear produced nothing but lies. Its no different than Soviet era figures. Till its fall, soviets always reported massive prosperity while people suffered in poverty. Mao's era was nothing but lies and lies and no real growth.

Remember, The Great Chinese Famine? How come Mao's era of massive growth reconcile with death of 60 million due to famine?