Israel-Hamas Conflict: Updates & Discussions

@randomradio:


"CSIRO has been leading the development of a roadmap for the Australian solar fuels industry. Theroadmap aims to define the research, development and demonstration priorities to establish andfoster an industry using solar thermal technologies. During the three-year project, the cost ofphotovoltaic (PV) technologies has significantly reduced, while interest has grown in theproduction of hydrogen from electrolysis. This report, commissioned by ARENA, assesseshydrogen production from PV and electrolysis. It is intended as both a standalone document and auseful reference point for comparison with solar thermal technologies. It considers the likelycurrent cost as well as a ‘realistic, optimistic’ view of future possibilities, as presented in the solarthermal fuels roadmap.

Our evaluation of the current and future (2030) cost of hydrogen from PV and electrolysis showsthat the potential cost using currently available technology is approximately $18.70/kg H2. Thebase case system consists of a PV module with power electronics connected to a proton exchangemembrane electrolysis plant, which produces hydrogen only when the PV system is producingpower. The assessment is based on an estimated system cost of $2300/kW for a large scale, nontracking PV system with a mid-range capacity factor of 20.5% and a weighted average cost ofcapital of 6.4%, as recently published by the CO2CRC (2015). It is assumed that the uninstalled costof the electrolyser and associated components is $2,285/kW, in line with recent estimates fromthe European Fuel Cell and Hydrogen Joint Undertaking (Bertuccioli et al., 2014). Significant costreductions are predicted for both these technologies, cutting the estimated cost of hydrogen to$9.10/kg by 2030.

The study also examined the potential of battery storage to reduce the cost of hydrogenproduction. In this scenario, the battery system was used to condition the power supply from thePV system, with sufficient storage capacity provided to enable continuous operation of theelectrolyser. Lithium-ion battery technology was selected as the most appropriate. In both currentand future scenarios, battery storage increased the cost of hydrogen relative to the base case, dueto its relatively high cost compared with energy production from PV. Based on current and futurebattery costs of $540 and $200/kWh, the estimated cost of hydrogen was $28.40 and $11.30/kg in2015 and 2030 respectively. While the current cost with battery storage is much higher than thecase without storage, the gap is expected to be close if projected battery cost targets are met. Itwas also interesting to note that the addition of any amount of Li-ion battery storage to thesystem increased the hydrogen production cost relative to the base case.


The estimates of hydrogen production costs are significantly higher than the current cost of itsproduction from steam methane reforming, which is typically in the range of $1.50-2.50/kg H2.Naturally, however, fossil fuels such as methane produce significant greenhouse gas emissions,while PV-electrolysis systems are instead based on renewable solar resources and produce zeroemission fuel."


1. $2/kg is steam methane reforming, that isn't green and it doesn't include compression (16.7kWh or £5/kg), only production.

2. Note that even if you could produce H2 for free, you still have £5/kg for compression at 16.7kWh/kg, and even that puts it over the 13.2kWh of electricity required for 100km with a Tesla Model 3. Again transportation and storage costs are ignored. So H2 beating EVs for personal transport is a mathematical impossibility.
 
Stop responding without reading my links. 1kg of green hydrogen takes 62kWh to produce and compress (assuming 100% compression efficiency). At 1,000km for 5.6kg, that's <180km/kg, so ~35kWh/100km, compared to 13.2kWh/100km for a Tesla Model 3 RWD. Whatever the cost of electricity per kWh that comes out to almost 3x the price.

Cost figures for H2 in $ are BS, because they don't allow for subsidies and the amount of non-green H2 in the mix. What I have provided is actual kWh/kg, which is irrefutable engineering maths. hydrogen compression alone requires 8.6kWh/kg even for isentropic compression.


At £0.30/kWh (UK electricity cost), that's £2.58. But wait it gets worse:






So actually it takes 8.6kWh/(0.92x0.56) = 16.7kWh/kg just to compress. At £0.30/kWh that's £5/kg.




So to produce and compress 1kg of hydrogen takes 53+16.7 = ~70kWh. That's for 180km in a Mirai under unrealistic conditions, or 70/(1000/5.6)x100 = 39.2kWh/100km. A Tesla Model 3 is 13.2kWh/100km. So with Uk electricity prices:

Mirai = 39.2 x 28.17p = £11.04
Tesla = 13.2 x 28.17p = £3.72

Your $2/kg figure is utter bollox unless you can tell me right now where I can buy 70kWh of electricity for £1.57 (i.e. 2.25p/kWh). Tell me now and I will change my electricity supplier here and now.

This also doesn't include the costs of transporting and storing H2, which is massive. Bottom line, H2 is shit for cars!


Also 1 gallon of diesel gets >100km.


I don't think you understand how it all works.

So let me make it really simple.

Let's assume we both have cars that produce 100 kWh of electricity, me with a 5 kg H2 FCEV (60% efficiency) and you with a 100 kWh battery-equipped BEV. Now, we both fuel up. You were sitting around for 8 hours, while I would have shown up 5 minutes before your 8 hours are up. And now, we wanna pay at the gas station. I pay £3/kg, you pay 0.3p/kWh. So I pay £15 and you pay £30. In India, I would pay $10, you would pay $18.75. And you better not pay for those 85p/kWh rapid chargers unless you wanna pay 85 quid instead of 30.

That's it.

Everything else you posted is just plain rubbish, none of it is a consumer problem. It's for CEOs and govts to deal with. All that production, compression, storage, building new transmission lines, charging points etc, what we pay out of our wallets at the gas station pays for everything.
 
@randomradio:


"CSIRO has been leading the development of a roadmap for the Australian solar fuels industry. Theroadmap aims to define the research, development and demonstration priorities to establish andfoster an industry using solar thermal technologies. During the three-year project, the cost ofphotovoltaic (PV) technologies has significantly reduced, while interest has grown in theproduction of hydrogen from electrolysis. This report, commissioned by ARENA, assesseshydrogen production from PV and electrolysis. It is intended as both a standalone document and auseful reference point for comparison with solar thermal technologies. It considers the likelycurrent cost as well as a ‘realistic, optimistic’ view of future possibilities, as presented in the solarthermal fuels roadmap.

Our evaluation of the current and future (2030) cost of hydrogen from PV and electrolysis showsthat the potential cost using currently available technology is approximately $18.70/kg H2. Thebase case system consists of a PV module with power electronics connected to a proton exchangemembrane electrolysis plant, which produces hydrogen only when the PV system is producingpower. The assessment is based on an estimated system cost of $2300/kW for a large scale, nontracking PV system with a mid-range capacity factor of 20.5% and a weighted average cost ofcapital of 6.4%, as recently published by the CO2CRC (2015). It is assumed that the uninstalled costof the electrolyser and associated components is $2,285/kW, in line with recent estimates fromthe European Fuel Cell and Hydrogen Joint Undertaking (Bertuccioli et al., 2014). Significant costreductions are predicted for both these technologies, cutting the estimated cost of hydrogen to$9.10/kg by 2030.

The study also examined the potential of battery storage to reduce the cost of hydrogenproduction. In this scenario, the battery system was used to condition the power supply from thePV system, with sufficient storage capacity provided to enable continuous operation of theelectrolyser. Lithium-ion battery technology was selected as the most appropriate. In both currentand future scenarios, battery storage increased the cost of hydrogen relative to the base case, dueto its relatively high cost compared with energy production from PV. Based on current and futurebattery costs of $540 and $200/kWh, the estimated cost of hydrogen was $28.40 and $11.30/kg in2015 and 2030 respectively. While the current cost with battery storage is much higher than thecase without storage, the gap is expected to be close if projected battery cost targets are met. Itwas also interesting to note that the addition of any amount of Li-ion battery storage to thesystem increased the hydrogen production cost relative to the base case.


The estimates of hydrogen production costs are significantly higher than the current cost of itsproduction from steam methane reforming, which is typically in the range of $1.50-2.50/kg H2.Naturally, however, fossil fuels such as methane produce significant greenhouse gas emissions,while PV-electrolysis systems are instead based on renewable solar resources and produce zeroemission fuel."


1. $2/kg is steam methane reforming, that isn't green and it doesn't include compression (16.7kWh or £5/kg), only production.

2. Note that even if you could produce H2 for free, you still have £5/kg for compression at 16.7kWh/kg, and even that puts it over the 13.2kWh of electricity required for 100km with a Tesla Model 3. Again transportation and storage costs are ignored. So H2 beating EVs for personal transport is a mathematical impossibility.

Don't bother using the @ mention, it almost never works. Just quote a previous post.

And that's Australia, where it costs $150B to make some submarines.

In India:
Green hydrogen is the cleanest form of fuel when produced through renewable sources of energy. RIL aims to produce green hydrogen at $1 per kilogram by 2030. The current production economics of green hydrogen works out to be around $8-9 per kilogram as compared to less than $4 per kilograms for other traditional fuels and feedstocks.

"Efforts are on globally to make Green Hydrogen most affordable fuel option by bringing down its cost to initially under $ 2 per kg. Let me assure you all that Reliance will aggressively pursue this target and achieve it well before the turn of this decade. And India has always set and achieved even more audacious goals. I am sure that India can set even more aggressive target of achieving under $ 1 per kg within a decade. This will make India the first country globally to achieve $1 per 1 kilogram in 1 decade – the 1-1-1 target for Green Hydrogen," said billionaire Ambani while addressing the International Climate Summit 2021.

RIL has started developing the Dhirubhai Ambani Green Energy Giga Complex over 5,000 acres in Jamnagar to be among the world's largest integrated renewable energy manufacturing facilities with an investment of Rs 75,000 crore in the next three years.

This complex will have four Giga Factories, which cover the entire spectrum of renewable energy, including an integrated solar photovoltaic module factory, advanced energy storage battery factory, electrolyzer factory for the production of Green Hydrogen, and a fuel cell factory for converting hydrogen into motive and stationary power.

"Green hydrogen is key to our ever green, sustainable and prosperous future of everyone on the planet. Hydrogen has high gravimetric energy density and can be reconverted into electricity and heat with zero emissions. Although the costs of hydrogen from electrolysis today are high, they are expected to fall significantly in the coming years. New technologies are emerging for hydrogen storage and transportation, which will dramatically reduce the cost of distribution. Furthermore, the Government of India is planning to create an enabling Green Hydrogen eco-system in the country. Because of all these developments, Green Hydrogen will surely attract significant investments," said Mr. Ambani.


The group intends to invest up to USD 50 billion over the next 10 years to set up a fully integrated green hydrogen ecosystem in India. This includes the production of 1 million tonnes of green hydrogen in the initial phase which will be ramped up to 3 million tonnes later.

So we have a plan that's much better than the Australians.

Our BEV efforts are only temporary. It will use both Li-ion and Na-ion types for the next 10 years or so before switching to H2 for cars. In the meantime, H2 will be used by powerplants and shipping, followed by planes, then trucks, once the road infra is built. Trains will use electricity directly.
 
Don't bother using the @ mention, it almost never works. Just quote a previous post.

And that's Australia, where it costs $150B to make some submarines.

In India:
Green hydrogen is the cleanest form of fuel when produced through renewable sources of energy. RIL aims to produce green hydrogen at $1 per kilogram by 2030. The current production economics of green hydrogen works out to be around $8-9 per kilogram as compared to less than $4 per kilograms for other traditional fuels and feedstocks.

"Efforts are on globally to make Green Hydrogen most affordable fuel option by bringing down its cost to initially under $ 2 per kg. Let me assure you all that Reliance will aggressively pursue this target and achieve it well before the turn of this decade. And India has always set and achieved even more audacious goals. I am sure that India can set even more aggressive target of achieving under $ 1 per kg within a decade. This will make India the first country globally to achieve $1 per 1 kilogram in 1 decade – the 1-1-1 target for Green Hydrogen," said billionaire Ambani while addressing the International Climate Summit 2021.

RIL has started developing the Dhirubhai Ambani Green Energy Giga Complex over 5,000 acres in Jamnagar to be among the world's largest integrated renewable energy manufacturing facilities with an investment of Rs 75,000 crore in the next three years.

This complex will have four Giga Factories, which cover the entire spectrum of renewable energy, including an integrated solar photovoltaic module factory, advanced energy storage battery factory, electrolyzer factory for the production of Green Hydrogen, and a fuel cell factory for converting hydrogen into motive and stationary power.

"Green hydrogen is key to our ever green, sustainable and prosperous future of everyone on the planet. Hydrogen has high gravimetric energy density and can be reconverted into electricity and heat with zero emissions. Although the costs of hydrogen from electrolysis today are high, they are expected to fall significantly in the coming years. New technologies are emerging for hydrogen storage and transportation, which will dramatically reduce the cost of distribution. Furthermore, the Government of India is planning to create an enabling Green Hydrogen eco-system in the country. Because of all these developments, Green Hydrogen will surely attract significant investments," said Mr. Ambani.


The group intends to invest up to USD 50 billion over the next 10 years to set up a fully integrated green hydrogen ecosystem in India. This includes the production of 1 million tonnes of green hydrogen in the initial phase which will be ramped up to 3 million tonnes later.

So we have a plan that's much better than the Australians.

Our BEV efforts are only temporary. It will use both Li-ion and Na-ion types for the next 10 years or so before switching to H2 for cars. In the meantime, H2 will be used by powerplants and shipping, followed by planes, then trucks, once the road infra is built. Trains will use electricity directly.
Pay-wall and it's utter bollox, they're lobbyists flying in the face of hard science. Even compressing it isentropically with 100% efficiency costs 8.6kWh x £0.30p = £2.58/kg, which is over $3 and that doesn't even include production. Even if they actually made H2 at $2/kg, it would stil cost >$5 overall.

Costs are irrelevant, they vary country to country and fluctuate, quote me energy requirements in kWh/kg if you wish to have this debate.

At current effiencies it takes 16.7kWh/kg just to compress (as I've explained above), that alone puts it out of the running, since 13.2kWh gets you 100km with EVs.

Above you talk of photovoltaic production:


It takes about 50 to 55 kilowatthours(kWh) to produce 1 kg of hydrogen.


Using the lower heating value of hydrogen, the electrical energy needed to generate one kg of hydrogen is 51 kWh (using an electrolyzer efficiency of 65%). This means that 1,000 kg/day of hydrogen will require 51,000 kWh per day of electricity.


1 kg of hydrogen will let you drive 97 – 100 km

That's 51kWh for 1kg H2 at 65% efficiency, so even at 100% electrolyzer efficiency it's 34kWh per kg H2 and another 8.6kWh with perfect 100% efficienct isentropic compression with a 100% efficient motor driving the compression. Therefore 42.6kWh/kg is th best achievable. 30% of that energy gets you 100km with Tesla Model 3 with no transport and storage issues.
 
I don't think you understand how it all works.

So let me make it really simple.

Let's assume we both have cars that produce 100 kWh of electricity, me with a 5 kg H2 FCEV (60% efficiency) and you with a 100 kWh battery-equipped BEV. Now, we both fuel up. You were sitting around for 8 hours, while I would have shown up 5 minutes before your 8 hours are up. And now, we wanna pay at the gas station. I pay £3/kg, you pay 0.3p/kWh. So I pay £15 and you pay £30. In India, I would pay $10, you would pay $18.75. And you better not pay for those 85p/kWh rapid chargers unless you wanna pay 85 quid instead of 30.

That's it.

Everything else you posted is just plain rubbish, none of it is a consumer problem. It's for CEOs and govts to deal with. All that production, compression, storage, building new transmission lines, charging points etc, what we pay out of our wallets at the gas station pays for everything.
Dude, as explained in links above, it takes 100-110kWh to produce 2kg of H2 and another 33.4kWh to compress it at current efficiencies. My Tesla Model 3 does >1,000km on that much energy at 13.2kWh/100km.


As for 5kg of H2 that's >330kWh. I and two friends could drive 3 Tesla Model 3s well over 800km for that and you get ~500km in one car.

We charge our car in the garage or at the roadside chargepoint overnight, we are driving where we want to go, while you are doing extra miles to get to the H2 station, where you spend another 5 minutes to fill with your uselessly energy inefficient H2, which cost even more energy to transport to the station and store.
 
@randomradio - Look, no Lithium, mining problem averted:


With a total battery pack capacity of 23.2kWh, it achieves a CLTC-rated range of 143 miles, with energy consumption approaching 10 kWh per 100km. Sodium-ion batteries shine in low-temperature environments, retaining over 92% capacity even in freezing conditions of -20°C, virtually eliminating winter range degradation.
 
Electricity is expensive in the West. The highest tariff in Bangalore for regular households is Rs 8.65 per unit. In London, it's Rs 40.
Well it depends on earning power a person in developed cntry can earn say $10 per hr min wage, it is actually cheaper for them wrt earnings.
 
Pay-wall and it's utter bollox, they're lobbyists flying in the face of hard science. Even compressing it isentropically with 100% efficiency costs 8.6kWh x £0.30p = £2.58/kg, which is over $3 and that doesn't even include production. Even if they actually made H2 at $2/kg, it would stil cost >$5 overall.

Costs are irrelevant, they vary country to country and fluctuate, quote me energy requirements in kWh/kg if you wish to have this debate.

At current effiencies it takes 16.7kWh/kg just to compress (as I've explained above), that alone puts it out of the running, since 13.2kWh gets you 100km with EVs.

Above you talk of photovoltaic production:










That's 51kWh for 1kg H2 at 65% efficiency, so even at 100% electrolyzer efficiency it's 34kWh per kg H2 and another 8.6kWh with perfect 100% efficienct isentropic compression with a 100% efficient motor driving the compression. Therefore 42.6kWh/kg is th best achievable. 30% of that energy gets you 100km with Tesla Model 3 with no transport and storage issues.

The kWh/kg is irrelevant when you work from zero to exhaust.
Dude, as explained in links above, it takes 100-110kWh to produce 2kg of H2 and another 33.4kWh to compress it at current efficiencies. My Tesla Model 3 does >1,000km on that much energy at 13.2kWh/100km.


As for 5kg of H2 that's >330kWh. I and two friends could drive 3 Tesla Model 3s well over 800km for that and you get ~500km in one car.

We charge our car in the garage or at the roadside chargepoint overnight, we are driving where we want to go, while you are doing extra miles to get to the H2 station, where you spend another 5 minutes to fill with your uselessly energy inefficient H2, which cost even more energy to transport to the station and store.

The cost to produce that 133-143 kWh is cheaper.
 
@randomradio - Look, no Lithium, mining problem averted:


Yeah. But we need to wait for Jap, SoKo and Western sources to claim that. Chinese claims are just for lols.

Nevertheless, Na is gonna be more important long term for cheap vehicles. But the problem is they have a lower energy density and lower cycle times, pretty much half. It's mainly suitable for cheap low-cost cars and lower that don't require as much range on a daily basis, and for storage where size and weight are not a concern. The plan in India is to make it swappable. You drive over to a gas station on a two-wheeler and swap it out for a new battery.

Only the battery is cheaper to make, at the cost of efficiency, so it still does not beat H2's "overall" cost to the consumer. Because it all comes down to the cost of electricity. With Na, your car's gonna be cheaper to buy, but would require more electricity to run, and it still won't be cheaper to buy than a H2 car with its small simple fuel cell.

Ultimately, over the long term, H2 cars will be cheaper to buy and operate. It's all 'cause of industrialization. The more you produce, the cheaper it gets. Even with platinum, FC prices are expected to drop by as much as 5 times from current costs.
 
Well it depends on earning power a person in developed cntry can earn say $10 per hr min wage, it is actually cheaper for them wrt earnings.

Yes, but look at the difference. It's 40 to 8.65 (highest slab), which is 4.62 times difference.

But in Bangalore, petrol price is Rs 100, while London's 144p/l converts to just Rs. 150. Just 1.5 times difference. In Riyadh, it's Rs 50/l, even though it's a developed country. This is the power of production.

When you produce energy, it gets a whole lot cheaper. With H2, we do not have to follow international prices, like oil.
 
Yeah. But we need to wait for Jap, SoKo and Western sources to claim that. Chinese claims are just for lols.
Nevertheless, Na is gonna be more important long term for cheap vehicles. But the problem is they have a lower energy density and lower cycle times, pretty much half. It's mainly suitable for cheap low-cost cars and lower that don't require as much range on a daily basis, and for storage where size and weight are not a concern. The plan in India is to make it swappable. You drive over to a gas station on a two-wheeler and swap it out for a new battery.
These batteries weigh several hundred kg.
Only the battery is cheaper to make, at the cost of efficiency, so it still does not beat H2's "overall" cost to the consumer. Because it all comes down to the cost of electricity. With Na, your car's gonna be cheaper to buy, but would require more electricity to run, and it still won't be cheaper to buy than a H2 car with its small simple fuel cell.

Ultimately, over the long term, H2 cars will be cheaper to buy and operate. It's all 'cause of industrialization. The more you produce, the cheaper it gets. Even with platinum, FC prices are expected to drop by as much as 5 times from current costs.
Your costs are BS, I've already specified it in terms of kWh, which is independent of pricing variations from one country to another. H2 is nowhere near as good, it would use more energy even if you got free H2 from Buddha and all you had to do was compress it with perfect isentropic efficiency.

Solid state batteries will last 4-5 times longer than existing Li batteries too. 2,000-3000 cycles wil become 10,000-12,500 cycles. basically the entire lifetime of a car and more.


Na batteries last about twice as long at 5,000 cycles.


 
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Then it's cheaper to use the same 133-143kWh to charge a battery as well.

The battery is expensive, that's the problem.

The cost of producing, compressing, storing and using H2 is cheaper than producing electricity and charging a battery. So H2 already wins here.

And then, the cost of replacing the battery, transporting it and recycling it is far more expensive than for a FC. It's erally big and heavy, practically weighs a ton.
 
These batteries weigh several hundred kg.

They are small hand-held batteries operating out of vending machines.


Here's how they do it on cars.

Your costs are BS, I've already specified it in terms of kWh, which is independent of pricing variations from one country to another. H2 is nowhere near as good, it would use more energy even if you got free H2 from Buddha and all you had to do was compress it with perfect isentropic efficiency.

You are looking at it all isolated instead of as a big industry. Like claiming it's better to run things using crude oil instead of refining it.

Solid state batteries will last 4-5 times longer than existing Li batteries too. 2,000-3000 cycles wil become 10,000-12,500 cycles. basically the entire lifetime of a car and more.

More money too.


Na batteries last about twice as long at 5,000 cycles.



These things lower procurement cost and replacement cost, not your maintenance cost. 5 times capacity, great, but your electricity bill is still the same, you will just have to charge 5 times lesser than usual.

The point of H2 is the fuel itself is cheaper than the electricity. H2 is like a nuclear power plant. Building it is expensive, but running it is extremely cheap.

A massive benefit of H2 is it can be exported, so you can transfer the capex to someone else, like the Saudis with oil. But some of the electricity capex is transferred to the consumer, which is why the electric bill only rises, never falls, unlike oil prices.

Also, the H2 capex is not a lot. Our oil consumption is expected to peak at 10M barrels a day by 2040. That's twice that of today. Today, we consume 121B l. In 2040, that's gonna be 240B l.

If we assume we are using all 240B l up on cars at 20 kmpl, then we get 4.8B km. Mirai provides 120 km/kg, normal, not optimal. So if we want 4.8B km, we need 40B kg of H2 for vehicles alone.

For the first 5mmt of H2, we need 60-100 GW of electrolyzers and 125 GW of solar power. So that's 480-800 GW of electrolyzers and 1000 GW of solar power for 40mmt. The expected cost of 1 GW of electrolyzers is $400M and solar power is $500M each. That's $900M, or a cumulative $692-820B. So, for less than $1T, counting desalination, transportation and distribution infra, we can replace fossil fuels entirely from vehicles. A battery cannot match this.
 
The battery is expensive, that's the problem.
The battery is a one-off cost like the car, and fuel cells aren't cheap either, so no advantage there.

The cost of producing, compressing, storing and using H2 is cheaper than producing electricity and charging a battery. So H2 already wins here.
:ROFLMAO: I've already proven mathematically with sources that it isn't. You need the electricity to produce and compress green H2. It takes nearly 70kWh for a single kg. Even the compression alone requires more electricity per 100km.
And then, the cost of replacing the battery, transporting it and recycling it is far more expensive than for a FC. It's erally big and heavy, practically weighs a ton.
Current Li batteries last 10-15 years, there are Tesla taxis in London that have done 310k miles.


Na batteries last twice as long, solid state batteries 5x as long. The entire car is done after that long.

You have no proof that recycling a fuel cell is cheaper, both are expensive.
 
The battery is a one-off cost like the car, and fuel cells aren't cheap either, so no advantage there.


I'm referring to operating cost, not procurement cost.

:ROFLMAO: I've already proven mathematically with sources that it isn't. You need the electricity to produce and compress green H2. It takes nearly 70kWh for a single kg. Even the compression alone requires more electricity per 100km.

*sighs*

And I'm saying even at 70 kWh/kg, it's still gonna be cheaper to operate with H2, 'cause most of that is just sunk costs. After power plants and the industry absorb it over a 5-year period, the remaining trickles down to the average consumer as they expand production.

Current Li batteries last 10-15 years, there are Tesla taxis in London that have done 310k miles.


Sure. But it would be great if car OEMs provide warranty that's as long.

But shitbuckets, 376 days driven and 136 days charging. And supercharger at that. That's crazy for range anxiety.

You most definitely cannot use the Tesla S on a 24/7 basis.

Na batteries last twice as long, solid state batteries 5x as long. The entire car is done after that long.

Na has a short cycle life, you can't keep recharing it as long as Li. At least half. Which is why it's good for small vehicles that need low power, especially the swappable kind.

Solid state is fine in terms of life, good for phones and laptops, but seriously expensive for cars. It costs $800/kWh vs $140/kWh for Li. It's never gonna be cost competitive for your average car. Only the rich can afford it.

You have no proof that recycling a fuel cell is cheaper, both are expensive.

A Mirai fuel cell weighs 56 kg for 114 kWh of power and is mostly metals like steel and aluminium. How difficult do you think recycling that is compared to a 1000 kg battery?
 
I'm referring to operating cost, not procurement cost.
The operating cost is less because you get 100km for less kWh.
*sighs*

And I'm saying even at 70 kWh/kg, it's still gonna be cheaper to operate with H2, 'cause most of that is just sunk costs. After power plants and the industry absorb it over a 5-year period, the remaining trickles down to the average consumer as they expand production.
Energy is energy, no such think as sunk costs, you're using wishy-washy bullshit speak inside of hard, sourced facts.
Sure. But it would be great if car OEMs provide warranty that's as long.
No manufacturer ever warranties something for the time it's likely to last. Our boiler had a warranty of 7 years but has lasted 30 years. You get a 3 year warranty on most cars but engines don't just explode in month 37.
But shitbuckets, 376 days driven and 136 days charging. And supercharger at that. That's crazy for range anxiety.
Article makes no mention of days.
You most definitely cannot use the Tesla S on a 24/7 basis.
You can't use any vehicle 24/7. Charging times are now down to 15 minutes.
Na has a short cycle life, you can't keep recharing it as long as Li. At least half. Which is why it's good for small vehicles that need low power, especially the swappable kind.
5,000 cycles says otherwise, it's only beaten by solid state Li.
Solid state is fine in terms of life, good for phones and laptops, but seriously expensive for cars. It costs $800/kWh vs $140/kWh for Li. It's never gonna be cost competitive for your average car. Only the rich can afford it.

1704915811387.png

A Mirai fuel cell weighs 56 kg for 114 kWh of power and is mostly metals like steel and aluminium. How difficult do you think recycling that is compared to a 1000 kg battery?
Even a Tesla Model S Plaid battery is only 479kg, Lucid Air Dream 460kg. Fuel cells have a shorter lifecycle based on what I'm reading, certainly none that have managed 310,000 miles.


Mirai still has an Li battery weighing ~45kg, the H2 tanks weigh 87.5kg. The fuel cell module weight is 240-250kg. So that's 372.5-382.5kg total. These cells only generate 80kW, and Li battery generates the remainder of the 114kW. A Tesla Model S Plaid has 760kW, Lucid Air Sapphire has 900+kW, so you're comparing two entirely different capabilities.:ROFLMAO: Now please, please, STFU, because you're wasting my time with your unsourced claims and BS. Better minds than you or I have thought about this, and there are far more EV cars than fuel cell cars.

 
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The operating cost is less because you get 100km for less kWh.

Energy is energy, no such think as sunk costs, you're using wishy-washy bullshit speak inside of hard, sourced facts.

No manufacturer ever warranties something for the time it's likely to last. Our boiler had a warranty of 7 years but has lasted 30 years. You get a 3 year warranty on most cars but engines don't just explode in month 37.

Article makes no mention of days.

You can't use any vehicle 24/7. Charging times are now down to 15 minutes.

5,000 cycles says otherwise, it's only beaten by solid state Li.


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Even a Tesla Model S Plaid battery is only 479kg, Lucid Air Dream 460kg. Fuel cells have a shorter lifecycle based on what I'm reading, certainly none that have managed 310,000 miles.


Mirai still has an Li battery weighing ~45kg, the H2 tanks weigh 87.5kg. The fuel cell module weight is 240-250kg. So that's 372.5-382.5kg total. These cells only generate 80kW, and Li battery generates the remainder of the 114kW. A Tesla Model S Plaid has 760kW, Lucid Air Sapphire has 900+kW, so you're comparing two entirely different capabilities.:ROFLMAO: Now please, please, STFU, because you're wasting my time with your unsourced claims and BS. Better minds than you or I have thought about this, and there are far more EV cars than fuel cell cars.


Mirai's fuel cell stack weighs 56 kg. 240 kg is for everything; air and hydrogen supply, cooling and power control.

And the fact that you brought up the 1.2 kWh Li battery on Mirai shows you don't know what you are talking about. It's just for regenerative braking and acceleration. But the fact that you put a 45 kg figure on it shows how heavy Li-ion really is.

Warranty matters because the battery is way too expensive.

You wanna match the range of H2 over time, you're gonna need a 1 ton Li-ion battery. A Tesla 3 apparently gives 12kWh/100km, at its most efficient. So to get to Mirai's most efficient 1000 km range, it needs 120 kWh. Such a battery is in the 1000 kg class. Tesla's new 100 kWh battery weighs nearly 700 kg. Regardless, 500 kg vs 56 kg, no competition.

Vehicles can run 24/7. But it's figurative. You wanna get from Point A to B within 24 hours at 70 mph carrying heavy loads, H2 is your go-to vehicle, not electric.

Yes, better minds than you and I have worked on it, and have figured out that H2 will become cheaper in the long run. It's not me saying it. The vehicles will be cheaper, the energy will be cheaper and recycling will be cheaper. Even the insurance will be cheaper, what with a BEV's penchant for catching fire.