Israel-Hamas Conflict: Updates & Discussions

Yeah because he had no idea how far away he got from rest of the flight group. It was a failure of situational awareness brought on by lack of networking.

He knew exactly what he was doing, which is why he tricked his wingman into turning back at the LoC, while he kept going.

No idea why you are revising history.

How is Pakistan serious & Iran not serious? They both launched attacks that caused little to no damage to the 'intended' targets. In fact you could say the Pakistanis took more care to ensure the escalation is contained as they used precision-guided weapons & struck a military area that at the time was in what was only nominally part of India.

Iran threw ballistic missiles which are fairly inaccurate & they had no control over what they hit. What if they had killed dozens or hundreds of civilians? How could Iran realistically expect Israel not to retaliate after that?

If you consider escalation management to at least partly consist of not being reckless in what you attack & where, the Pakistanis were much more considerate in containing the escalation than the Iranians.

The Iranians informed the West 3 days in advance about the attack. They even informed the Israelis beforehand so they could take cover. They even informed what sort of targets were going to be attacked and the nature of the attack, ie, drones and missiles, so the defenders knew exactly what sort of resources were necessary.

Prepared in the sense that they would carry out orders given.

How likely is it for the ensuing conflict going to end in your favour is a different matter.

We weren't 'prepared' after the 2001 Parliament attack either. But we mobilized anyway, didn't we?

Nope. The forces were not ready to invade Pakistan, so the war was called off. GoI used American help to control the situation. The Americans were actually surprised that we did not go to war at the time, they had given up the diplomatic option to stop the war then. The IA's lack of preparedness was the main reason. 97% obsolete air defenses and insufficient ammo were the main known reasons along with limited night-fighting capabilities. Most of this was only addressed during Modi's first term.

We could have made some initial gains at the frontline, but what then?

The Chinese still had far superior infrastructure on their side of the LAC. They would have reinforced & pushed us right back, even further back than we currently hold because by that point they'd only be responding to an Indian attack which would have allowed them the casus belli to push deep into our territory, even beyond their perception of the LAC.

We had very minimal infrastructure that was operational back then to induct new forces into theatre. We hadn't even inducted Rafale & S400 back then. We were simply in no position to go to war, period.

We still aren't. Not against China. That ability is still a work in progress that hopefully will be completed by end of decade.

Pushing them back and taking gray zones would have humiliated them. It would have put them on the backfoot for a decade or more. Our economy would have taken a hit, but that was the cost.

Even though we had minimal infra, we still had local superiority. The Chinese had not mobilized and their air force was practically non-existent.

Just one example, from 2013:


They retreated after we dismantled some infra we had newly built.

First of all, Swift Retort & Galwan were not enemy actions - they were enemy reactions.

Um... Galwan was enemy action. What did we do before that? Things were normal.

Pak was used to conducting several terror strikes on Indian forces/civilians, the most we used to do before then were SF ops across the LoC to target launch pads in PoK. But what we did in Balakot was a major escalation compared to what we usually do - use of airpower to bomb sovereign Pakistani territory & kill targets in triple or at least double digits.

The myth of Pak being able to shield terrorists on its sovereign land because of the nuclear umbrella was shattered. They were compelled to respond.

The incident at Galwan (and the confrontation near Pangong lake that preceded it) were the result of local PLA commanders being taken aback by some of the moves IA had made immediately prior. Such as opening up a new path to patrol all the way up to Finger 8 by coming in from the north, which we hadn't been able to do before since 1962.

The area commanders probably sh@t themselves thinking they'll be blamed for losing the sector and took matters into their own hands to confront Indian patrols aggressively. This was also the reason they rushed in so many forces to fortify the fingers immediately thereafter. And remember, most of the deaths at Galwan were because soldiers fell into the icy cold river from which they couldn't be rescued in time.

You cannot just go starting a war with anyone because there was a skirmish. You're being nuts if you think we should have gone to war with China over Galwan. The price for killing our soldiers was paid on that day itself - we killed several of theirs as well. Beyond that, only thing we should have done was to dig in for the long haul, let China know that we see them as an adversary, develop our infrastructure & industry, and finish our build-out so that we can be in a better position to fight the conventional war when needed to. Which is exactly what we did.

Think about it, after the US killed Gen. Soleimani, the Iranians struck a US-controlled air base with ballistic missiles. Did the US go to war with Iran over that? Or recognized that this was managed escalation and toned down the tensions?

We didn't do anything very different that would have led the Chinese to attack Indian troops.

Iran's attacks on both Israel and US/Saudi facilities were stage-managed. There is quite literally no parallel to be drawn here.
 
Literally different areas, different civiliations, different time periods even.
Muslims and Hindus in India are in the same area, same civilisation, just different religions. That isn't the same as taking some guy from Afghanistan and sticking him in Manchester.
 
The Chinese will have a far bigger barrage of missiles that they will send towards Taiwan and they will rely on their hypersonics.
Unlike the Iranian barrage the Chinese assault on Taiwan will feature heavy use of MLRS. You are right that the Chinese assault will be much more overwhelming and will likely last days if not weeks on end.


How is Pakistan serious & Iran not serious? They both launched attacks that caused little to no damage to the 'intended' targets. In fact you could say the Pakistanis took more care to ensure the escalation is contained as they used precision-guided weapons & struck a military area that at the time was in what was only nominally part of India.

Iran threw ballistic missiles which are fairly inaccurate & they had no control over what they hit. What if they had killed dozens or hundreds of civilians? How could Iran realistically expect Israel not to retaliate after that?

If you consider escalation management to at least partly consist of not being reckless in what you attack & where, the Pakistanis were much more considerate in containing the escalation than the Iranians.
To be fair, Iran is limited by its capabilities and strategic posturing. They said they wanted to respond to an Israeli strike on their territory with a response in kind. They have no ability to conduct airstrikes on Israel from Iran. They can't use their proxies since they officially maintain a degree of separation - using them directly would be an admission that they have more control/influence than they claim.

They likely expected the drones to be shot down, after all they are slow flying and the Israelis were given so much time to prepare for them. Iranian ballistic missiles were mostly aimed at sparsely populated regions and military installations in the Negev. I think their BM guidance is actually pretty good, they have demonstrated that they are precise enough to target individual buildings in the al-Asad airbase attack a few years ago. I wouldn't be surprised if they intentionally didn't aim at places where large troop formations/civillains would gather.

The only outlier is cruise missiles which they didn't use too many of. I would guess because they are more expensive for the Iranians, or they might have been concerned of them slipping through and actually causing irreconcilable damage. Perhaps they don't want to disclose too much of their abilities in that sector?

Regardless, what I'm trying to say is that with the capabilities and limitations at hand the Iranians probably conducted the best "limited" response they could. Something that would actually land hits, however insignificant, on Israeli soil from Iranian soil. Iran telegraphed their assault in advance as best they could without explicitly calling the Israelis.
 
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He knew exactly what he was doing, which is why he tricked his wingman into turning back at the LoC, while he kept going.

No idea why you are revising history.

If he did he wouldn't have flown out of the cover of friendly ELL-8222s.

He's a not a kamikaze.

The Iranians informed the West 3 days in advance about the attack. They even informed the Israelis beforehand so they could take cover. They even informed what sort of targets were going to be attacked and the nature of the attack, ie, drones and missiles, so the defenders knew exactly what sort of resources were necessary.

Yeah, that was their way of managing escalation because the means of attack they were using were inaccurate and prone to unintended consequences.

Nope. The forces were not ready to invade Pakistan, so the war was called off. GoI used American help to control the situation. The Americans were actually surprised that we did not go to war at the time, they had given up the diplomatic option to stop the war then. The IA's lack of preparedness was the main reason. 97% obsolete air defenses and insufficient ammo were the main known reasons along with limited night-fighting capabilities. Most of this was only addressed during Modi's first term.

Ever think maybe that's why we don't start wars? We aren't in a comfortable position here.

We are yet to fully industrialize, we have no superpowers that will rush to our defence, we cannot even fully organize our ORBAT against a single threat because we always have to hold forces in reserve for the possibility of a two-front war at the same time.

We are one bad call away from making a historic mistake that would cripple us for decades if not centuries.

Pushing them back and taking gray zones would have humiliated them. It would have put them on the backfoot for a decade or more. Our economy would have taken a hit, but that was the cost.

Even though we had minimal infra, we still had local superiority. The Chinese had not mobilized and their air force was practically non-existent.

China is a dictatorship and as such a fragile state. They cannot handle humiliation on such a scale - especially in the internet age where information cannot be easily controlled. That too against a power the average Chinese considers inferior to them.

The PLA would be forced to prolong the war. If they could not beat us using speed & surprise, they'd want to beat us by tiring us out in a long war, not unlike what Russia is doing now.

They would have the means to win a long war, we don't.

They retreated after we dismantled some infra we had newly built.

And then came back. What do you think salami-slicing is?

If you think this all started in 2020, you need to read more history.

It's just folks like Ajai Shukla who are Congress stooges that try to portray it all as having started in 2020 so they can put the Modi Govt on the spot.

Um... Galwan was enemy action. What did we do before that? Things were normal.

You will realize what happened when you realize it all started at Pangong, not Galwan.

Why do you think the first large-scale clashes were at Pangong?

The Chinese had salami sliced several fingers over the decades which we could no longer patrol. But we changed all that in 2020 when for the first time in a long time we patrolled all the way up to F8, opening a front on the Chinese positions there from the North, threatening to reverse everything they gained over the decades.

Why do you think PLA commanders in the area were so rattled that they started acting recklessly all of a sudden?

We downplay this of course because we don't want to be seen as wanting to change the status quo but that's that.

We didn't do anything very different that would have led the Chinese to attack Indian troops.

We did do things differently...we just didn't think they'd escalate to the level they did at the local area level. And backing that up was our infrastructure drive that we refused to stop.

The Chinese made their own miscalculations however.

Iran's attacks on both Israel and US/Saudi facilities were stage-managed. There is quite literally no parallel to be drawn here.

The power equations are different here, the standoff distances are different. Plus both India & Pak are recognized nuclear powers. There are very dangerous implications for any unchecked escalation and both sides know that very well. That's why Pakistan's provocations have dropped to the sub-conventional level since the turn of century.
 
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Doubt that, chinese consider taiwan as their land including ppl as well. Chinese dont want to be seen as aggressors causing lot of death, they will try to bully taiwan to submission. They will just present a fait accompli.
There is chances of sea based assets getting hammered as the loss of lives & optics of damage will be very less, it will also send a message any fight is futile.
This is ultimately what Putin wanted to do with Ukraine, which he also regarded as his territory, including the population, but I think it failed.
 
Iranian leaders also want to pacify their population that they have retaliated, without escalating the situation.
yes , agree with that.
I am of an opinion that the info to Israelis about those generals in Iranian consulate was rather provided by Iran itself.
dont think so , whats the benefit for them. Israel has been killing iranian backed proxies & generals.
Russians do not want Iran to get involved in any war, because they have to fight Ukraine war with Iranian supplies.
on the contrary russians would be happy as most of the western attention would be diverted towards israel. Israel is more dearer than ukraine, former is family , latter is just useful idiots in geopolitics.
 
This is ultimately what Putin wanted to do with Ukraine, which he also regarded as his territory, including the population, but I think it failed.
There is a lot of difference between ukraine & taiwan , right from geography to politics. One of the important fact is that taiwanese dont see themselves any different from mainland chinese.

US needs to find some useful idiot in taiwan who can drag the country towards disaster. Other than that we dont see any chaos or bloodshed taking place between pro and independence supporting factions which might help either china or US.
 
One of the important fact is that taiwanese dont see themselves any different from mainland chinese.
One of my wife's colleagues was an English teacher of Ukrainian origin, and until the war in Ukraine, when asked about her origin, she replied that she was of Russian origin. Her father and mother had fled to France between the two world wars.
 
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If he did he wouldn't have flown out of the cover of friendly ELL-8222s.

He's a not a kamikaze.

You don't need EW for the kind of thing he did. And you don't move out of cover of an ECM system. We don't even know if any of the fighters were even carrying ECM at the time.

Yeah, that was their way of managing escalation because the means of attack they were using were inaccurate and prone to unintended consequences.

Their missiles are accurate. Why is this a problem?

Ever think maybe that's why we don't start wars? We aren't in a comfortable position here.

We are yet to fully industrialize, we have no superpowers that will rush to our defence, we cannot even fully organize our ORBAT against a single threat because we always have to hold forces in reserve for the possibility of a two-front war at the same time.

We are one bad call away from making a historic mistake that would cripple us for decades if not centuries.

You just start running around in circles when a point is made. What's this got to do with fact that other powers see our lack of ability as a weakness to exploit?

We can't go to war because we always maintain a weak posture against other powers. Politicians are more interested in domestic politics, so there's never enough money spent on defense. And that means a weakness others exploit. Which is why our lack of retaliation during the Balakot episode influenced Chinese actions across the LAC.

Had we gradually escalated in 2019, to the point where we even crossed the IB, the Chinese would have stayed quiet in 2020.

China is a dictatorship and as such a fragile state. They cannot handle humiliation on such a scale - especially in the internet age where information cannot be easily controlled. That too against a power the average Chinese considers inferior to them.

The PLA would be forced to prolong the war. If they could not beat us using speed & surprise, they'd want to beat us by tiring us out in a long war, not unlike what Russia is doing now.

They would have the means to win a long war, we don't.

This I agree with. We do not have the means to fight a long war with China, and has been my position since 2020. But we had the ability to generate an equivalent amount of offensive maneuvers along other areas where the Chinese were at a disadvantage. We ended up being completely defensive instead, because the Chinese knew we will not do anything, which goes back to the point I made regarding the inaction post Abhinandan's capture.

And then came back. What do you think salami-slicing is?

If you think this all started in 2020, you need to read more history.

It's just folks like Ajai Shukla who are Congress stooges that try to portray it all as having started in 2020 so they can put the Modi Govt on the spot.

The last time they did this at a larger scale was in 1962. After that, they took some land via negotiations. In 2013, they did it again, but retreated. In 2020, they stayed. Both sides do salami slicing.

You will realize what happened when you realize it all started at Pangong, not Galwan.

Why do you think the first large-scale clashes were at Pangong?

The Chinese had salami sliced several fingers over the decades which we could no longer patrol. But we changed all that in 2020 when for the first time in a long time we patrolled all the way up to F8, opening a front on the Chinese positions there from the North, threatening to reverse everything they gained over the decades.

Why do you think PLA commanders in the area were so rattled that they started acting recklessly all of a sudden?

We downplay this of course because we don't want to be seen as wanting to change the status quo but that's that.

No. Pangong happened in 2020, along with Galwan.

“All Indian Army maps show the LAC runs north to south at Finger-8. With an ITBP post between Finger-3 and Finger-4, our patrols have been going up to Finger-8 for years. But the PLA has been refusing to discuss its occupation from Finger-4 to 8 since early last month,” said a senior officer.

We did do things differently...we just didn't think they'd escalate to the level they did at the local area level. And backing that up was our infrastructure drive that we refused to stop.

The Chinese made their own miscalculations however.

India's miscalculation of Chinese intentions led to the Chinese miscalculation of Indian reaction.

So Galwan was action, and India reacted.

The power equations are different here, the standoff distances are different. Plus both India & Pak are recognized nuclear powers. There are very dangerous implications for any unchecked escalation and both sides know that very well. That's why Pakistan's provocations have dropped to the sub-conventional level since the turn of century.

It doesn't matter. All I'm trying to point out was the Pakistani attack on India was very serious and very real, whereas the Iranian attack was a show of force, a demonstration of what they can do when they have to become serious. So intentions of both were completely opposite to each other.
 
This is ultimately what Putin wanted to do with Ukraine, which he also regarded as his territory, including the population, but I think it failed.

But, unlike the Russians, the Chinese have developed sufficient military capability to take Taiwan. So the intentions are different. Russia thought a show of force was enough. China knows they have to fight tooth and nail.

Putin was tricked by his own people, a special power of the Russians, if you ask me.
 
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You don't need EW for the kind of thing he did. And you don't move out of cover of an ECM system. We don't even know if any of the fighters were even carrying ECM at the time.

How do you think the MKIs managed to dodge all the AMRAAMs without ECM being involved? MKI sure isn't a VLO plane.

Their missiles are accurate. Why is this a problem?

Ballistic missiles can never be as accurate as an air launched PGM. It's just not possible.

You just start running around in circles when a point is made. What's this got to do with fact that other powers see our lack of ability as a weakness to exploit?

We can't go to war because we always maintain a weak posture against other powers. Politicians are more interested in domestic politics, so there's never enough money spent on defense. And that means a weakness others exploit. Which is why our lack of retaliation during the Balakot episode influenced Chinese actions across the LAC.

Because we can see the result of our gradual build-out of capabilities.

Had Pulwama happened in 2008 or even 2016, we would not have been in a position to carry out Balakot-like strikes. But by 2019 we achieved that position in our equation vis-a-vis Pakistan.

If we stay the course with our infrastructure build-up & development of domestic military-industrial complex, by the end of the decade we'll be in a position to do the same to China as well. So why not stay the course instead of succumbing to the enemies' attempts to derail us or draw us into a conflict on their terms unless absolutely necessary? We have a resilient state & resilient national mindset - let's take advantage of that.

Had we gradually escalated in 2019, to the point where we even crossed the IB, the Chinese would have stayed quiet in 2020.

Easy to say, hard to do.

If we crossed IB & started a proper war with Pakistan, what's the guarantee we'd be in a position to control its course? What if we got tangled up in a long war with Pak, with China supplying them all that they need to keep the war going, not unlike how the West is doing with Ukraine now, with the intention of inflicting maximum attrition against us?

And what if at that point China had launched a full scale attack with the intention of taking Ladakh and/or Arunachal when we were in that state, worn out from the long war against Pakistan and in no position to fight on two fronts?

Would we not have given them decisive victory on a platter?

This I agree with. We do not have the means to fight a long war with China, and has been my position since 2020. But we had the ability to generate an equivalent amount of offensive maneuvers along other areas where the Chinese were at a disadvantage. We ended up being completely defensive instead, because the Chinese knew we will not do anything, which goes back to the point I made regarding the inaction post Abhinandan's capture.

We did do offensive maneuvers - we captured most of the dominating heights in the sector. We gave them up in negotiations, which I think was a bad decision but then again, I'm not aware of what exactly was the ground situation that necessitated that.

All I know is that we managed to secure a stalemate and no salami-slicing has been happening since 2020.

In our current situation & preparedness level, I don't know if a better outcome could have been realistically expected.

No. Pangong happened in 2020, along with Galwan.

“All Indian Army maps show the LAC runs north to south at Finger-8. With an ITBP post between Finger-3 and Finger-4, our patrols have been going up to Finger-8 for years. But the PLA has been refusing to discuss its occupation from Finger-4 to 8 since early last month,” said a senior officer.

I'm talking in terms of months & days. Pangong confrontation was in the first week of May. Galwan movement started in 2nd week. The deaths at Galwan were in June. There is a timeline of events that lead up to it.

By early that year, PLA had considered F8 effectively in their hands, but we had almost reversed it. That was what rattled them & precipitated the flare-up. They miscalculated in the response they gave, thanks to reckless leadership at the local level, and as a result their gradual encroachment strategy is in the doldrums.

Had they not did what they did at Galwan, by now they would probably have encroached on more territory than what even the buffer zone supposedly 'gave' them. They probably regret Galwan more than we do.

Why do you think the WTC Commander was changed like 4 times in less than a year?

It doesn't matter. All I'm trying to point out was the Pakistani attack on India was very serious and very real, whereas the Iranian attack was a show of force, a demonstration of what they can do when they have to become serious. So intentions of both were completely opposite to each other.

Look at the outcomes, not at the dog & pony show before it.

Iran has no AEWs & as a result no real ability to coordinate air actions that far from Iranian airspace. On the other hand there is a context to usage of ballistic missiles in the India-Pak scenario...if one sees BMs boosting from the other, it can only really be assumed as a nuclear attack, which would trigger our own nuclear response. Even CMs & SRBMs like Nasr have that stigma attached to them because they are claimed as being nuclear-capable platforms.

Usage of such systems when everyone is already on the edge could lead to dangerous miscalculations.

In our context, airpower is a far safer way to create shows of force without risk of major escalation or damage to unintended targets. I'd bet this was all already figured out as part of Confidence-Building Measures (CBMs) surrounding escalation dynamics by respective leaderships long ago.

Even on the LoC, most of the time there is a set SOP regarding escalation. When one side starts using 60mm mortars, the other side also has to respond with weapons of commensurate capability. They can't just let loose with 155mm howitzers. It takes a long series of vertical escalatory steps to get there.
 
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Lopsided cost for defense.

Here's a better analysis of those numbers:

This is a good point. Based on the fact there were 120 BMs, 36 CMs and 185 drones, that's only 341 objects total. If an Arrow 3 costs $3.5m, then unless an Arrow 3 was fired at every single once of them, these estimates of $1-1.3bn do not hold water. Even if an Arrow 3 was used on every BM, that's $420m, and assuming a David's Sling ($1m) for the other 221 missiles/drones, that's only $640m. And we know some drones were shot down with APKWS and Sidewinder outside Israel. So the total cost was likely nearer $500m.

Now given that Iran used 50 MRBMs, plus 70 SRBMs, plus 36 CMs and 185 large drones, what's the bet that cost something similar? And last I looked Israel's GDP is ~25% higher than Iran's.
Former financial advisor to the Older Forum Chief of General Staff estimates a cost of about 4-5 billion NIS, or 1-1.3 billion USD.

עלות ההגנה הישראלית ממתקפת הטילים של איראן: "5-4 מיליארד שקל בלילה"

This is not sustainable. This is 5% of the Older Forum's annual budget spent in one night.

A single David's Sling missile costs $1 million. A single Arrow costs $3.5 million without specifying the variant (likely Arrow 2).

He estimates the cost for Iran was about 10% of that.
 
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How do you think the MKIs managed to dodge all the AMRAAMs without ECM being involved? MKI sure isn't a VLO plane.

Performance. All the MKIs did was go cold. Once you go cold, missile range drops by 4 times because it's now tail-chase intercept.

I have no clue how many times I've used this tactic to get away from cops during my no-license, no-insurance days. :ROFLMAO:

So I'm sure our pilots are experts at this.

Ballistic missiles can never be as accurate as an air launched PGM. It's just not possible.

Times have changed. Agni V's accuracy is below 10m. And the size of the BM's warhead adequately compensates for any inaccuracy.

In any case, why do you keep shifting goalposts? The point you brought up was unintended consequences, but BMs are accurate enough to not have unintended consequences, especially when the targets are military in nature. PGMs are in fact more prone to veering off course, like what PAF experienced in 2019. BMs are a lot more predictable in terms of success rate, hence the massive expenditure into BMD.

Because we can see the result of our gradual build-out of capabilities.

Had Pulwama happened in 2008 or even 2016, we would not have been in a position to carry out Balakot-like strikes. But by 2019 we achieved that position in our equation vis-a-vis Pakistan.

If we stay the course with our infrastructure build-up & development of domestic military-industrial complex, by the end of the decade we'll be in a position to do the same to China as well. So why not stay the course instead of succumbing to the enemies' attempts to derail us or draw us into a conflict on their terms unless absolutely necessary? We have a resilient state & resilient national mindset - let's take advantage of that.

How's any of this got to do with the fact that our lack of inaction is seen as a weakness?

We didn't go to war with China because we are too weak. That's why China did what they did. They successfully identified our weaknesses and hit us where it hurts. Had we dealt with Pakistan more sensibly, there would have been significantly less likelihood of Galwan.

Easy to say, hard to do.

If we crossed IB & started a proper war with Pakistan, what's the guarantee we'd be in a position to control its course? What if we got tangled up in a long war with Pak, with China supplying them all that they need to keep the war going, not unlike how the West is doing with Ukraine now, with the intention of inflicting maximum attrition against us?

And what if at that point China had launched a full scale attack with the intention of taking Ladakh and/or Arunachal when we were in that state, worn out from the long war against Pakistan and in no position to fight on two fronts?

Would we not have given them decisive victory on a platter?

Pakistan doesn't have the muscle or finances to do anything. We didn't need to meet any real military objective, just showed intent that we are willing to cross IB by actually crossing it. It was gonna be a short thrust inside Pakistan, without becoming an existential threat to them. This would have shown intent, and brought us to the table with a significant advantage to our side. We squandered the chance away.

As mentioned earlier, China did not have any capability to attack us. Even they are building forces up now. Especially air force.

We did do offensive maneuvers - we captured most of the dominating heights in the sector. We gave them up in negotiations, which I think was a bad decision but then again, I'm not aware of what exactly was the ground situation that necessitated that.

All I know is that we managed to secure a stalemate and no salami-slicing has been happening since 2020.

In our current situation & preparedness level, I don't know if a better outcome could have been realistically expected.

We didn't "capture" anything. We just positioned ourselves that gave us a tactical advantage and that allowed us some leeway during negotiations, that's all.

I'm talking in terms of months & days. Pangong confrontation was in the first week of May. Galwan movement started in 2nd week. The deaths at Galwan were in June. There is a timeline of events that lead up to it.

By early that year, PLA had considered F8 effectively in their hands, but we had almost reversed it. That was what rattled them & precipitated the flare-up. They miscalculated in the response they gave, thanks to reckless leadership at the local level, and as a result their gradual encroachment strategy is in the doldrums.

Had they not did what they did at Galwan, by now they would probably have encroached on more territory than what even the buffer zone supposedly 'gave' them. They probably regret Galwan more than we do.

Why do you think the WTC Commander was changed like 4 times in less than a year?

Pangong, Galwan, Hot Springs, Depsang etc, all happened at the same time. And it's all just one event, not multiple different events.

Galwan is probably where the Chinese assumed they had the advantage to play their circus tricks.

Look at the outcomes, not at the dog & pony show before it.

Iran has no AEWs & as a result no real ability to coordinate air actions that far from Iranian airspace. On the other hand there is a context to usage of ballistic missiles in the India-Pak scenario...if one sees BMs boosting from the other, it can only really be assumed as a nuclear attack, which would trigger our own nuclear response. Even CMs & SRBMs like Nasr have that stigma attached to them because they are claimed as being nuclear-capable platforms.

Usage of such systems when everyone is already on the edge could lead to dangerous miscalculations.

In our context, airpower is a far safer way to create shows of force without risk of major escalation or damage to unintended targets. I'd bet this was all already figured out as part of Confidence-Building Measures (CBMs) surrounding escalation dynamics by respective leaderships long ago.

Even on the LoC, most of the time there is a set SOP regarding escalation. When one side starts using 60mm mortars, the other side also has to respond with weapons of commensurate capability. They can't just let loose with 155mm howitzers. It takes a long series of vertical escalatory steps to get there.

Indo-Pak nuclear security is quite transparent on both sides. There is very little space for miscalculations. Both sides will know well in advance when a nuclear strike is to take place. Especially so with Indian nuclear capabilities, which emphasizes strict differentiation between nuclear and non-nuclear forces.

Anyway, you've been going around in circles pointlessly. Yousaid Balakot and Iran's attack were the same, but they were complete opposites. Pak intended to do serious damage and failed. Iran only wanted to demonstrate their capabilities.
 
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Someday, hopefully, people in the First World will realize that there's this thing called "exchange rate."
They do. But even if you take western costs and divide by them by 5 for Russia and 10 for Iran, an MRBM still costs several million dollars. China's DF-21s cost around $10m. Current LRHW cost is around $41m but that will likely fall when production ramps up. That's a very small missile relative to Iran MRBMs though. Still, divide that by 10 you end up with $4.1m. So we've allowed for local costs but the numbers are still BS. I think Iran just has poor accountancy, they probably only include labour costs or something.

It doesn't really even make since to use MRBMs for attack unless they're nuclear-tipped or aimed at very high value assets like carriers or destroyers. End of the day, Iran used 50 BMs and didn't hit a single Israeli F-35I or any fighter, that's a failure.
 
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Performance. All the MKIs did was go cold. Once you go cold, missile range drops by 4 times because it's now tail-chase intercept.

I have no clue how many times I've used this tactic to get away from cops during my no-license, no-insurance days. :ROFLMAO:

So I'm sure our pilots are experts at this.

Flying with 8222s is SOP for any large package going airborne. Maneuvering alone wouldn't have been enough to deal with AIM-120C-5s. At least not all of them. And we know multiple were launched.

No reason to assume ECM wasn't involved. It's evident from the fact that the only plane to get hit was the one that went far away from the rest of the friendly aircraft.

Times have changed. Agni V's accuracy is below 10m. And the size of the BM's warhead adequately compensates for any inaccuracy.

In any case, why do you keep shifting goalposts? The point you brought up was unintended consequences, but BMs are accurate enough to not have unintended consequences, especially when the targets are military in nature. PGMs are in fact more prone to veering off course, like what PAF experienced in 2019. BMs are a lot more predictable in terms of success rate, hence the massive expenditure into BMD.

Iranian BM tech is unlikely to be as good as our latest.

And remember that CEP only deals with assured accuracy of half of the missiles launched. The other half may or may not hit within that circle.

How's any of this got to do with the fact that our lack of inaction is seen as a weakness?

We didn't go to war with China because we are too weak. That's why China did what they did. They successfully identified our weaknesses and hit us where it hurts. Had we dealt with Pakistan more sensibly, there would have been significantly less likelihood of Galwan.

Our relative weakness vis-a-vis China isn't a case of perception, it's a fact. Any Chinese aggression (and I'm not talking about local area commanders going crazy with spiked clubs, I'm talking about directive to invade coming down from Central Military Commission) is done after assessment of what we are capable of doing, not whether we are willing to go to war over small provocations or not.

We had already been demonstrating that we weren't ready to go to war for decades. A real effort to change that equation only began after 2014. In reality only after 2017 and getting serious only after 2020.

Going to war against Pakistan wouldn't have changed any of our real capabilities on the ground at the LAC. In fact it would have weakened our posture further.

Pakistan doesn't have the muscle or finances to do anything.

You should know by now that Pakistan doesn't even have the finances to exist. Yet it does.

As of material requirements, China would've taken care of all that in the case of a war with India.

We didn't need to meet any real military objective, just showed intent that we are willing to cross IB by actually crossing it. It was gonna be a short thrust inside Pakistan, without becoming an existential threat to them. This would have shown intent, and brought us to the table with a significant advantage to our side. We squandered the chance away.

Wars don't work like that. Once you invade, you will receive a counterattack into Rajasthan & Punjab. Pakistan has sizeable numbers of MBTs with hunter-killer capability (which most of our tanks actually lack). So far we just managed to achieve superiority through certain strategic investments like building up a fleet of Rudra armed helos to support the armoured thrusts & deploying BrahMos GLCMs. It's just enough to prevent Pakistan from thinking they can get away with carrying out conventional attacks on India like in '65 or '71. But it's not yet enough to achieve total & complete tactical superiority against Pak.

Granted, unless China steps in to provide resupply (which they likely will as it would be a cheap method to wear us out), Pakistan cannot keep up the war against India for very long, however, any such large scale conflict with Pak in 2019 would have restricted our collective strategic focus firmly on the Western front for decades to come, to the detriment & neglect of the Northern & Eastern fronts - which has been the problem since 1947.

It would have derailed our shift in focus to the Chinese threat.

Taking the long view, it would have hurt our preparedness against PRC. It's simply not a wise move to engage in large scale hostilities with Pak when the Chinese threat is still present. However, if & when the Chinese were to be engaged in a major war in the Pacific with Taiwan/US/Japan...that would indeed create a golden opportunity for us to make moves on PoK without fear of either China or the West getting in the way.

China would be too occupied to dedicate any forces or supplies to prevent us from taking over PoK, while the West would be more amenable to look the other way as they might yet need us to supply their war effort or threaten Chinese SLoCs in the IOR/Malacca.

As mentioned earlier, China did not have any capability to attack us. Even they are building forces up now. Especially air force.

They have the capability to attack. They had it even back in '62.

They just don't have enough to ensure a decisive victory is all. Their build-out was aimed at attaining that decisive advantage. But since we started our own build-out, their goal is now being pushed further away, requiring more & more resources to be committed to the LAC - every bit of which are resources they cannot commit to their enemies in the Pacific.

We didn't "capture" anything. We just positioned ourselves that gave us a tactical advantage and that allowed us some leeway during negotiations, that's all.

That's all we could realistically do.

To make any move on a larger scale, and then to sustain through the Chinese response, we'd have required infrastructure that we did not have at that point.

Pangong, Galwan, Hot Springs, Depsang etc, all happened at the same time. And it's all just one event, not multiple different events.

It was spread over a literal month.

Galwan is probably where the Chinese assumed they had the advantage to play their circus tricks.

They used the same tactics at all those hotspots. Injuries to both sides due to blunt weapons were reported at multiple locations.

It's just that at Galwan, it resulted in deaths due to the terrain.

Indo-Pak nuclear security is quite transparent on both sides. There is very little space for miscalculations. Both sides will know well in advance when a nuclear strike is to take place. Especially so with Indian nuclear capabilities, which emphasizes strict differentiation between nuclear and non-nuclear forces.

Anyway, you've been going around in circles pointlessly. Yousaid Balakot and Iran's attack were the same, but they were complete opposites. Pak intended to do serious damage and failed. Iran only wanted to demonstrate their capabilities.

How is a handful of PGMs landing in open spaces supposed to be intention of serious damage? Also, the fact that not a single one out of the six PGMs having struck anything of value is too much to be a coincidence or case of targeting failure. More than likely they were intentionally aimed so as to have the least chance at killing or injuring anyone.

Once you account for all the differences in geography, prior understandings to manage escalation & capabilities of each side - the intention of Swift Retort was largely the same as the Iranian strike: To put on a show of force to demonstrate the capability to attack, but causing as little actual damage as possible to the intended targets.

If it wasn't for Abhinandan getting carried away chasing the PAF jets (and better SOPs surrounding IFF usage ensuring we didn't shoot down our own Mi-17), the whole affair would've been extremely forgettable.
 
I'm talking in terms of months & days. Pangong confrontation was in the first week of May. Galwan movement started in 2nd week. The deaths at Galwan were in June. There is a timeline of events that lead up to it.
Nope. Much before. Some time in March. One of our SF team was deployed either in Feb end or March to monitor and counter. They went radio silent in mid March.
 
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