Kalvari Class Submarines - Updates & Discussions

[Ankit Kumar]

Non of the Type 209 knock offs which SK subsystems are active in Indonesia and they are thinking about cancelling the 2nd tranche of 3 Type 209 knockoffs and directly buy from where they actually know to make submarines. Either Type214 or Scorpene.

So no, South Korean option is not the best we got.

If you are not buying French with MDL as partners , we better skip P75I and straight away focus on to P76.

Use the baseline Scorpene as a baseline and see where we can go. Whatever we come up with will be better than the 3 types we are currently operating.

 

[randomradio]

Non of the Type 209 knock offs which SK subsystems are active in Indonesia and they are thinking about cancelling the 2nd tranche of 3 Type 209 knockoffs and directly buy from where they actually know to make submarines. Either Type214 or Scorpene.

So no, South Korean option is not the best we got.

If you are not buying French with MDL as partners , we better skip P75I and straight away focus on to P76.

Use the baseline Scorpene as a baseline and see where we can go. Whatever we come up with will be better than the 3 types we are currently operating.

The Scorpene, with a beam of 6m, is too small for our needs.

Indonesia's Type 209s suffer from the same problem as Scorpene, 6m beam. Even they need bigger subs. It's the same environment, the Indo-Pacific. Unlike India, the Indonesians ordered it in batches, so they have the option of cancelling. Although in our case, we are also fine with Scorpenes for now.

Upgrading the Scorpene is basically giving it a new hull and a new name, which means it will no longer be called Scorpene. And we can't upgrade the current Scorpene like the Kilo because it uses French kit and they get first priority for upgrades. Scorpene's out because it's an import. It's like suggesting buying the Rafale and then replacing it with Indian kit, makes no sense. Just 'cause we are doing it with Russian stuff doesn't mean we can do the same with Western stuff. The relationship is different. Norway killed their sub project with France due to the same reason.

P76 needs time. It will be taken up after P75I, but needs a few years to design and validate before it can begin construction. The 3 SSNs will come in faster.

We have reached a point where we can design and build our own SSK, but P75I is all about buying time and technology with the least amount of risk. There is no realistic option except direct import that will come in faster than P75I. The IN is taking the most realistic path ahead.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Non of the Type 209 knock offs which SK subsystems are active in Indonesia and they are thinking about cancelling the 2nd tranche of 3 Type 209 knockoffs and directly buy from where they actually know to make submarines. Either Type214 or Scorpene.

So no, South Korean option is not the best we got.

If you are not buying French with MDL as partners , we better skip P75I and straight away focus on to P76.

Use the baseline Scorpene as a baseline and see where we can go. Whatever we come up with will be better than the 3 types we are currently operating.

Why's Indonesia reconsidering it's decision ? Any specific reason ? Besides wasn't the program designed in such a way that 2 subs would be built in SK & the rest constructed in Indonesia under SK guidance & supervision ? Given the strong defence ties between the 2 countries , cancellation of the order would be an extreme step - the kind undertaken where there's a complete breakdown in relationship due to some intractable issues.

Haven't seen any reports on such issues .

 

[Sathya]

Which is a whole new procurement program. Assuming a 12-year half-life, the Scorpene would need MLU in 12 years. So an induction in 2012 would have seen the Scorpene going into MLU in 2024. Now, we are looking at 2029. Assuming a 3-4 year process, we are looking at 2033, possibly around the time the P-75I completes deliveries.

Now, if we are to start a whole new process for an upgraded Scorpene, we are looking at inducting it even beyond 2033. So it wouldn't make sense to chase after something that's no longer needed when better subs are gonna become available through P-75I.

The IN is looking at leasing 3 upgraded Kilos as stopgap.



Yes. But the IN was defeated by MoD bureucracy. It's a battle that cannot be won anyway.



IN wanted to sign the deal this year, but it looks like it will get pushed to the next FY. I believe it's 'cause this FY will see a contract for MRCBF.



Scorpene's not even in the competition. The only ones left are Korea's DSME3000, France's SMX 3.0 and Spain's S-80 Plus. Russia and Germany withdrew. Russia's Amur won't meet requirements, and Germany wanted a year to design a new sub for IN. Sweden complained about ToT demands and didn't bother.

Out of those 3, Korea's is the most mature, but they are not willing to provide a VLS. It may require redesign to add an Indian VLS. Or IN will have to accept it without one.

Spain's option is pretty decent. It's still WIP, but at least it exists. It has questionable AIP tech.

France's option is the least mature, but should come with everything the IN wants 'cause it's been designed for India. Its AIP tech is untested.

Basically, without VLS, all three are viable candidates. And the VLS can be added in during the first 6-year refit. If the IN does this, then the Korean sub will be the frontrunner.

If either MRCBF / P15I
Goes through this year.., it ll be great addition for the Navy.

Supposing we want to tap into USA inventory / mic for the air force, which aircraft would u recommend for the IAF?

 

[Amarante]

Why's Indonesia reconsidering it's decision ? Any specific reason ? Besides wasn't the program designed in such a way that 2 subs would be built in SK & the rest constructed in Indonesia under SK guidance & supervision ? Given the strong defence ties between the 2 countries , cancellation of the order would be an extreme step - the kind undertaken where there's a complete breakdown in relationship due to some intractable issues.

Haven't seen any reports on such issues .

None of the 3 TNI-AL T-209/1400 DSME made «are operational: according to sources inside the Indonesian defence industry, it appeared that the KRI Nagapasa submarine did not meet the technical specifications: maximum diving speed and operational immersion were not achieved. Nor was the boat capable of launching its tactical weapons. The same sources indicate that the KRI Ardadedali and KRI Alugoro are in the same material condition.»
(…)
[and] DSME had not obtained the relevant re-export authorisations from TKMS. (…)

Tentara Nasional Indonesia - Angkatan Laut : protocole d'entente pour deux Scorpène

Blog proposant souvent de suivre les programmes anciens, nouveaux de la Marine nationale et parfois de faire de même pour les marines étrangères.

lefauteuildecolbert.blogspot.com

(french)

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Why's Indonesia reconsidering it's decision ? Any specific reason ? Besides wasn't the program designed in such a way that 2 subs would be built in SK & the rest constructed in Indonesia under SK guidance & supervision ? Given the strong defence ties between the 2 countries , cancellation of the order would be an extreme step - the kind undertaken where there's a complete breakdown in relationship due to some intractable issues.

Haven't seen any reports on such issues .

Without the original OEM , South Koreans really cannot do much. There will always be teething issues without German help.

It was in news few days ago that Indonesia has 4 submarines. 3 new Chang BoGo class and 1 very old Type 209.

The only operational among the 4 is the old Type 209. And it's not like the 3 have been earlier active, and now under maintenance. Till the day have come out from the production line, they haven't been on a single training patrol.

That's why there's news that Indonesia talking Scorpenes with France and Type 214s with Germany/Italy.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

The Scorpene, with a beam of 6m, is too small for our needs.

It has good enough range and endurance. And unlike Kilo it can use all its 6 tubes to fire Cruise missiles. So once SLCM is figured out, it will be real good.

Upgrading the Scorpene is basically giving it a new hull and a new name, which means it will no longer be called Scorpene.

Working on Scorpene, not upgrading. It's sonar system, it's CMS and it's self protection system is the best among all our submarines. Its CMS can fire MdCN and Blackshark. The most contemporary torpedo and SLCM we can find in the market. And it's propulsion is 4 decades ahead of what is used in Kilo. That means a lot of decibels reduced.

We should work for localisation of those parts. That's the quickest way we can get our own IPR tech.

DSME had not obtained the relevant re-export authorisations from TKMS.

The most critical thing.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

It's like suggesting buying the Rafale and then replacing it with Indian kit, makes no sense. Just 'cause we are doing it with Russian stuff doesn't mean we can do the same with Western stuff.

South Korea, Turkey did it with Type 209 family. They might not be able to successfully export it, but that's how they built a better submarine fleet than we have.

 

[randomradio]

If either MRCBF / P15I
Goes through this year.., it ll be great addition for the Navy.

MRCBF has the greatest possibility. MDL has successfully delayed P75I with their demand for demonstrating AIP.

Supposing we want to tap into USA inventory / mic for the air force, which aircraft would u recommend for the IAF?

There's nothing as of right now.

The F-22 is leaving service.
The F-16 and SH are pointless to the IAF. LCA Mk2 is the better option. SH is all navy, it's of no real use to the IAF, which needs 9G capable jets.
The F-15EX simply duplicates the MKI MLU. Without the F-15EX seeing a drastic reduction in RCS, it's of no use to the IAF. Won't be cheap either.

Even the USAF agrees that all the other jets mentioned above are not of much use in a fight with China, so it won't work out for us either.

The only potential option today is the F-35A, but it needs the new engine. The Pentagon is also waiting for the same. But the US is unlikely to sell the F-35A with the new engine, never mind NGAD. So apart from not being ready, the only realistic option may not be available either.

 

[randomradio]

Without the original OEM , South Koreans really cannot do much. There will always be teething issues without German help.

It was in news few days ago that Indonesia has 4 submarines. 3 new Chang BoGo class and 1 very old Type 209.

The only operational among the 4 is the old Type 209. And it's not like the 3 have been earlier active, and now under maintenance. Till the day have come out from the production line, they haven't been on a single training patrol.

That's why there's news that Indonesia talking Scorpenes with France and Type 214s with Germany/Italy.

I believe Indonesia has a lone Type 206. The Type 209 cousins are from Korea.

None of the 3 TNI-AL T-209/1400 DSME made «are operational: according to sources inside the Indonesian defence industry, it appeared that the KRI Nagapasa submarine did not meet the technical specifications: maximum diving speed and operational immersion were not achieved. Nor was the boat capable of launching its tactical weapons. The same sources indicate that the KRI Ardadedali and KRI Alugoro are in the same material condition.»
(…)
[and] DSME had not obtained the relevant re-export authorisations from TKMS. (…)

Tentara Nasional Indonesia - Angkatan Laut : protocole d'entente pour deux Scorpène

Blog proposant souvent de suivre les programmes anciens, nouveaux de la Marine nationale et parfois de faire de même pour les marines étrangères.

lefauteuildecolbert.blogspot.com

(french)

It's misleading, likely even fake lobby led news. Just like IN, the Indonesians have also realised they need a bigger sub. Hence the chase after the bigger version of Scorpene, like Brazil's version, with AIP and whatnot.

 

[Hydra]

Wh

MRCBF has the greatest possibility. MDL has successfully delayed P75I with their demand for demonstrating AIP.



There's nothing as of right now.

The F-22 is leaving service.
The F-16 and SH are pointless to the IAF. LCA Mk2 is the better option. SH is all navy, it's of no real use to the IAF, which needs 9G capable jets.
The F-15EX simply duplicates the MKI MLU. Without the F-15EX seeing a drastic reduction in RCS, it's of no use to the IAF. Won't be cheap either.

Even the USAF agrees that all the other jets mentioned above are not of much use in a fight with China, so it won't work out for us either.

The only potential option today is the F-35A, but it needs the new engine. The Pentagon is also waiting for the same. But the US is unlikely to sell the F-35A with the new engine, never mind NGAD. So apart from not being ready, the only realistic option may not be available either.

What if FEX too have Rafale like electronic stealth?

 

[randomradio]

It has good enough range and endurance.

Not at all. Which is something even the Indonesians have complained about their Type 209s. The Brazilian version has twice the patrol range compared to our version. And the Indonesians are also chasing after the Brazilian version. There's too much of a qualitative difference. And even this version won't meet the IN's new requirements. Hence the SMX 3.0.

And unlike Kilo it can use all its 6 tubes to fire Cruise missiles. So once SLCM is figured out, it will be real good.

I don't really think that's very relevant. It's a nice feature, but may never be used. VLS is what we really need for salvo launch.

Working on Scorpene, not upgrading. It's sonar system, it's CMS and it's self protection system is the best among all our submarines. Its CMS can fire MdCN and Blackshark. The most contemporary torpedo and SLCM we can find in the market. And it's propulsion is 4 decades ahead of what is used in Kilo. That means a lot of decibels reduced.

It's good today. But largely irrelevant to us in the 2030s when we will want to use Brahmos II and LR-LACM Mk1/2/3. We will be using our own torpedoes too.

For P75I, P76 and P75A, the weapons will be all Indian. A significant part of the propulsion system will also be Indian for P75I. Both the electric motor and batteries will be Indian. In fact I won't be surprised if even the propellers will be Indian. So French or Korean tech will be more or less irrelevant here outside of AIP.

The upgraded Kilos have new motors. And a bigger sub like Kilo can be made to be less noisy than smaller subs like Scorpene. Bigger the better when it comes to subs. Pretty much the reason why the US, Russia and China are chasing after very big SSN designs. After our initial set of 6 SSNs, we also need to double the displacement of our next class.

Bigger subs, while being more capable, are also better at dealing with obsolescence issues. They see upgrades at a much faster rate due to lower design restrictions.

South Korea, Turkey did it with Type 209 family. They might not be able to successfully export it, but that's how they built a better submarine fleet than we have.

We are following a different path. Our very first indigenous sub was an SSBN. And our very first indigenous attack sub will be an SSN instead of an SSK. They just did it earlier than us with a different tech, we simply couldn't match their funding in this area, especially with our focus on more exotic tech like nuclear propulsion, nukes, BMs, BMD etc. I think our record is much better.

 

[randomradio]

Wh
What if FEX too have Rafale like electronic stealth?

I doubt it. The Rafale's airframe and engine were designed from scratch for electronic stealth. The radar signals converge to a few locations on the Rafale and the hotspot is cancelled. The entire F-15 is a hotspot of detectable energy, no different from the MKI.

 

[Amarante]

(…) It's misleading, likely even fake lobby led news. Just like IN, the Indonesians have also realised they need a bigger sub. Hence the chase after the bigger version of Scorpene, like Brazil's version, with AIP and whatnot.

(…) The KRI "Cakra" (1981) is the only operational Indonesian submarine as the three Nagapasa class submarines have been unable to achieve their main operational characteristics since 2017.
And since the admission to active service of each of these ships: none has ever launched a tactical weapon (heavy torpedo, etc).

https://twitter.com/x/status/1511629274335297536

 

[randomradio]

(…) The KRI "Cakra" (1981) is the only operational Indonesian submarine as the three Nagapasa class submarines have been unable to achieve their main operational characteristics since 2017.
And since the admission to active service of each of these ships: none has ever launched a tactical weapon (heavy torpedo, etc).

https://twitter.com/x/status/1511629274335297536

10 octobre 2021 : essais de validation des capacités opérationnelles du sous-marin dont des essais du système de combat, des sonars, des conduites de tir des torpilles et un lancement de torpille.

It seems to me the French are playing politics, since the CMS and weapons systems are French. The sub decided to fire after Indonesia signed an agreement with France for Rafales and Scorpenes.

 

[Amarante]

It seems the Indonesian Scorpène will be AIPed (mesma):

Naval Group Tawarkan Pembangunan Dua Kapal Selam Scorpene Class dengan AIP di Surabaya

Melanjutkan MoU (Memorandum of Understanding) berupa kerja sama strategis antara Kementerian Pertahanan RI dan manufkatur kapal asal Perancis Naval Group, yakni tentang rencana pengadaan kapal selam Scorpene Class untuk kebutuhan TNI AL. Maka belum lama ini, Naval Group telah menawarkan untuk...

www.indomiliter.com

 

[Amarante]

10 octobre 2021 : essais de validation des capacités opérationnelles du sous-marin dont des essais du système de combat, des sonars, des conduites de tir des torpilles et un lancement de torpille.

It seems to me the French are playing politics, since the CMS and weapons systems are French. The sub decided to fire after Indonesia signed an agreement with France for Rafales and Scorpenes.

The tweets are about KRI Cakra’s 4th ATM, (she was commissioned by the Indonesian Navy in the 1980s). PT. PAL and DSM&E did that last ATM.

What about France?

 

[randomradio]

The tweets are about KRI Cakra’s 4th ATM, (she was commissioned by the Indonesian Navy in the 1980s). PT. PAL and DSM&E did that last ATM.

What about France?

My bad. I thought they were talking about Nagapasa.

In any case unnamed sources are not reliable, especially on this topic.

 

[suryakiran]

And it's propulsion is 4 decades ahead of what is used in Kilo

Interesting tit bit, take it or leave it.

"When the Kilo goes silent it is quieter than the Scorpene."

Nothing else to add from my end.

 

[Hydra]

Interesting tit bit, take it or leave it.

"When the Kilo goes silent it is quieter than the Scorpene."

Nothing else to add from my end.

Victim of another Russian propoganda. If you wanna see how the exotic Russian gears performed, the Russia Ukrain battle ground is there right infront of you.

I do not see any reason to beleive kilo will ne quieter than scorpene, reason is 1) french guys are having decades of experience in designing a diesel sub just like Russians & Germans, 2) west always had technological edge over Russia & Rest of the world when comes to military engineering.
3) latest technology will be better than the previous one, i beleive kilo design is older than scorpene. Also tell me with the lack of fund due to Russian economic conditions, how they would improve the design 5) IN navy must be knowing who is more quieter, if it is not they definitely will go for follow on orders for kilo instead of scorpene.