Kalvari Class Submarines - Updates & Discussions

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_Anonymous_ said:
Check out the price at which the Scorpene deal was concluded please. It was reportedly 1100 crore but saw escalation.
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I think its about 4000 crores or slightly more now, possibly <= 4500 crores range. Refit/repair work is costly compared to the ships.
More interested in how they deploy the new tech really. Li-on is given to industry now, curious how that pan out, undersea comm tech also developed.
 
marich01 said:
I think its about 4000 crores or slightly more now, possibly <= 4500 crores range. Refit/repair work is costly compared to the ships.
More interested in how they deploy the new tech really. Li-on is given to industry now, curious how that pan out, undersea comm tech also developed.
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So as per the figures you're projecting , the refit would be pegged at 1300 cr + 20-30% escalation which would be ~ 1700 cr on the upper side + cost of AIP plug ( since it isn't clear if AIP is part of the projected refit costs ) .

Seems to me it's like half the cost of a Scorpene today . What a heavy price we have to pay for indigenization especially accounting for the delays .
 
_Anonymous_ said:
So as per the figures you're projecting , the refit would be pegged at 1300 cr + 20-30% escalation which would be ~ 1700 cr on the upper side + cost of AIP plug ( since it isn't clear if AIP is part of the projected refit costs ) .

Seems to me it's like half the cost of a Scorpene today . What a heavy price we have to pay for indigenization especially accounting for the delays .
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Well we have to know the nature of the repair work to guess the estimate really. I think AIP plug in fit would be more costly given they probably need to cut the sub open & fit it. I do not know much about the process so others can shed more light on this. But given this time we are going to test a new system it will definitely be costly. Would like to know the risk share between naval group, IN & MDL.
 
_Anonymous_ said:
The latest information on Twitter is that IN is desperately seeking Japanese participation in the project since they meet all the criteria.
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Critical sub systems in Soryu like its combat management systems, its self protection systems and the weapons mix have direct involvement of US companies.

And tot of those American sub systems (co-owned or co-developed too) to Indian vendors are next to impossible imo.

There's a reason why Japan rejected even to participate, despite India officially inviting them for the program.

SAAB's offer has similar issues, so just like Gripen they tried to market it, but unlike IAF, IN was firm on ToT, leading them to dropout.

I still believe that only two vendors have the competency to fullfill our needs. One's TKMS and other's NG. And Germans aren't exactly dieing to deal with India. If a deliberate attempt has been made to keep France out, then it's surely for someone's personal reasons. And this needs to be investigated.

Because Navy is most sensible among the three, but the submarine arm is rotting away at a faster pace than IAFs squadron numbers. That means there's serious issue in IN too.

PS: for the unquoted portion, let's see what happens with the timelines.
 
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Ankit Kumar said:
Critical sub systems in Soryu like its combat management systems, its self protection systems and the weapons mix have direct involvement of US companies.

And tot of those American sub systems (co-owned or co-developed too) to Indian vendors are next to impossible imo.

There's a reason why Japan rejected even to participate, despite India officially inviting them for the program.
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Could be adjusted in the sense that we take in what we can & Indigenise what we can't. I've a different take on it. I think India's pursuing Japan for a few reasons - the need to diversify our basket. Just as we can't & shouldn't be beholden to Russia we needn't be so to France as well. Secondly to test whether the Japanese are truly serious about seeking a long term partnership with India or are they paying lip service. Thirdly it's their propulsion systems in submarines viz their Li-ion battery packs, the AIP system & pumpjets that we're more interested in. Fourthly who better than the IN to take this partnership forward since that's the branch of our armed forces most engaged with the Quad, hence logically Japan.

Ankit Kumar said:
SAAB's offer has similar issues, so just like Gripen they tried to market it, but unlike IAF, IN was firm on ToT, leading them to dropout.
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Ankit Kumar said:
I still believe that only two vendors have the competency to fullfill our needs. One's TKMS and other's NG. And Germans aren't exactly dieing to deal with India.
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Agreed. For some reason ze Germans are playing hard to get.

Ankit Kumar said:
If a deliberate attempt has been made to keep France out, then it's surely for someone's personal reasons. And this needs to be investigated.
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The entire Scorpene deal from the beginning stank what with the reports of Kickbacks with Ravi Shankaran & Abhishek Verma identified as middlemen , the former being related with Adm Arun Prakash, the Naval War Room leaks, down to Naval Group certifying local partners to transfer ToT to them for sub systems, then declaring them unfit once the contract was inked , leaving the IN with no choice but to import them from NG France delaying the project & significantly pushing up costs.

Then you had Scorpene data being leaked.

Why do you think the French are particularly hard selling NG & proposing all those technological transfters? I think IN is adamant about not giving NG any leeway.

All said & done, NG enjoys a particularly unsavoury reputation since it's not just the Indians who're pointing fingers at them. The Malaysians did so, the Aussies booted them out , the Norwegians saw thru their double dealing.

Ankit Kumar said:
Because Navy is most sensible among the three, but the submarine arm is rotting away at a faster pace than IAFs squadron numbers. That means there's serious issue in IN too.

PS: for the unquoted portion, let's see what happens with the timelines.
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_Anonymous_ said:
AIP
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Japanese AIP is Sterling cycle based.


_Anonymous_ said:
Agreed. For some reason ze Germans are playing hard to get.
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In MMRCA initially Germans were pitching Eurofighter but weren't flexible, later UK took over.
_Anonymous_ said:
the need to diversify our basket.
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Need is to localise our basket within a decade. We shouldn't be looking for a potential shop for next 10 years. We need to be a shop in 10 years.

But all said and done, we need concrete decisions on Submarines and fighters this year. Or its a 3 year delay and it won't be before 2030 that anything will actually happen (get delivered).
 
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Ankit Kumar said:
Need is to localise our basket within a decade. We shouldn't be looking for a potential shop for next 10 years. We need to be a shop in 10 years.
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Whichever way you roll it , future tech will be so expensive to develop that it's just not going to be feasible for 1 country , except if it's the US , to develop everything in house . In our case it's the double handicap of being behind the developmental curve too though in most areas we've managed to bridge that gap considerably.

Why else do you think Japan has gotten into a JV with UK foe their development of 6th Gen FA ? The Japanese neither lack the means nor the tech to develop their own program. For the UK the writing's on the wall as far as survival of their indigenous defence industry goes . To their credit they're taking the right precautions.

Adm Prakash was rightly critical of the IAF asking why were they not leading the quest for a indigenous engine . In fact even in the recent rounds of negotiations we've undertaken with the French & the UK abroad , the delegation there lacked representation from the IAF . It was mostly the MoD babus , GTRE / ADA / DRDO personnel in it .


Ankit Kumar said:
But all said and done, we need concrete decisions on Submarines and fighters this year. Or its a 3 year delay and it won't be before 2030 that anything will actually happen (get delivered).
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As far as subs go the only way to do mitigate the present problems are to go in for an additional 3 Scorpenes & then wrap up the Project - 75 I business by 2027-28 T/L .

As far as the Rafales go , if the IAF / MoD / GoI wanted to exercise their options to go in for an additional 36-54 FAs they'd have done so sometime ago . If they've not done so till now , whatever happens will be post 2024.

But Macron's visiting & a lot of goodies including the additional tranche of 36 nos for IAF + 26 MRCBF deal being on the table for signing has been prophecised. Let's see.
 
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marich01 said:
yeah it seems so , I wonder if they have already tested the aip in one of the kilo subs being worked on without any hint outside?
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No special reason to maintain such secrecy. In fact the entire report of 1 Kilo class being deputed for all sorts of experimental projects viz Pumpjet propulsion , AIP systems , Li-ion battery packs etc hasn't seen any follow up articles after that except the one & only initial article informing us of this development.
 
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fuerzas-armadas-armada-submarino-s80-s81-isaac-peral-231222.jpg


(libertad.digital (spain), jan.31)

S80 submarines face further delays: technical and manpower problems​

The new delivery date for the S81 is set for autumn. The lack of personnel at Navantia could delay the other three submarines.

The Navy's S80 submarine programme is becoming interminable. Now that the period in which it became a real nightmare for the Ministry of Defence is over, not in vain the first unit should have been in service for more than a decade according to the initial planning, the light at the end of the tunnel came when the S81 Isaac Peral finally managed to hit the water. It was in April 2021, a few days after the Princess of Asturias gave her patronage.​
​
On that day, a delivery date for the first unit was set for April or May of this year, but at the beginning of the year, the Ministry of Defence gave the first clue that things were not going according to plan. It modified the official programme file on its website to postpone the delivery deadline to 2023. These days, the files are not accessible because they are "under review", according to the website itself.​
​
Confirmation of this delay was given on Monday by the Minister of Defence herself, Margarita Robles, during a double meeting in Cartagena (Murcia). First to the Cartagena Arsenal, the base of the Spanish submarine fleet. Subsequently, to the Navantia shipyard in the city of Murcia, where the four S80 class submarines are being built. I speak of "technical" reasons, without going into further details.​
​
These technical reasons are that last December some problems were detected in the S81 Isaac Peral, to be precise, in the sonar system, which needed to be improved. There have also been delays in the delivery of material from some suppliers. This has meant that some of the immersion tests could not be carried out on the scheduled date, forcing a delay in the final delivery, which is now approaching the autumn.​
​
But this incident is not the only one affecting the S80 class submarines. Navantia is currently facing a major internal conflict that could delay the construction of the other three submarines under way. These are the S82 Narciso Monturiol, the S83 Cosme García and the S84 Mateo García de los Reyes. These units should be delivered at the end of 2024, 2026 and 2028, respectively.​
​
The workers of the public company consider that there is a shortage of some 300 workers to be able to deliver the other three submarines on schedule and are demanding that Navantia's management make the necessary recruitments. For the moment, as a first measure of pressure, the works council has already taken the first steps to put pressure on the politicians who run the company: they have stopped working overtime since last week. /deepl​
 
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Amarante said:
fuerzas-armadas-armada-submarino-s80-s81-isaac-peral-231222.jpg


(libertad.digital (spain), jan.31)

S80 submarines face further delays: technical and manpower problems​

The new delivery date for the S81 is set for autumn. The lack of personnel at Navantia could delay the other three submarines.

The Navy's S80 submarine programme is becoming interminable. Now that the period in which it became a real nightmare for the Ministry of Defence is over, not in vain the first unit should have been in service for more than a decade according to the initial planning, the light at the end of the tunnel came when the S81 Isaac Peral finally managed to hit the water. It was in April 2021, a few days after the Princess of Asturias gave her patronage.​
​
On that day, a delivery date for the first unit was set for April or May of this year, but at the beginning of the year, the Ministry of Defence gave the first clue that things were not going according to plan. It modified the official programme file on its website to postpone the delivery deadline to 2023. These days, the files are not accessible because they are "under review", according to the website itself.​
​
Confirmation of this delay was given on Monday by the Minister of Defence herself, Margarita Robles, during a double meeting in Cartagena (Murcia). First to the Cartagena Arsenal, the base of the Spanish submarine fleet. Subsequently, to the Navantia shipyard in the city of Murcia, where the four S80 class submarines are being built. I speak of "technical" reasons, without going into further details.​
​
These technical reasons are that last December some problems were detected in the S81 Isaac Peral, to be precise, in the sonar system, which needed to be improved. There have also been delays in the delivery of material from some suppliers. This has meant that some of the immersion tests could not be carried out on the scheduled date, forcing a delay in the final delivery, which is now approaching the autumn.​
​
But this incident is not the only one affecting the S80 class submarines. Navantia is currently facing a major internal conflict that could delay the construction of the other three submarines under way. These are the S82 Narciso Monturiol, the S83 Cosme García and the S84 Mateo García de los Reyes. These units should be delivered at the end of 2024, 2026 and 2028, respectively.​
​
The workers of the public company consider that there is a shortage of some 300 workers to be able to deliver the other three submarines on schedule and are demanding that Navantia's management make the necessary recruitments. For the moment, as a first measure of pressure, the works council has already taken the first steps to put pressure on the politicians who run the company: they have stopped working overtime since last week. /deepl​
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Too many SSK design houses in Europe for too little market.

I doubt SAAB and Navantia will be able to do a follow on class for A26 and S80 respectively.

TKMS is in a strong position. French SSK design and development might see its end if it doesn't win P75I.
 
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Ankit Kumar said:
Too many SSK design houses in Europe for too little market.

I doubt SAAB and Navantia will be able to do a follow on class for A26 and S80 respectively.
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SAABs future as an FA OEM as well as SSK OEM is on the line . As long as the Swedish government keeps patronising it , they're good . Otherwise in a World falling into blocs & developing their own MIC either on their own or in association with other members of that bloc , it's only a matter of time before the Swedish economy won't be able to support such ventures.

What happened with The Tempest project os a good case I point with the Italians openly asking questions in the press that with the tie up with Japan what exactly would be the role the Italians are expected to play in the program ?

Ankit Kumar said:
TKMS is in a strong position. French SSK design and development might see its end if it doesn't win P75I..
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I think both NG & TKMS would survive & thrive . The French & ze Germans are in a different league altogether as compared to the Italians & the Swedes.
 
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