If only we could finish building a decent engine....
LCA Tejas Mk1 & Mk1A - News and discussions
- Thread starter Ashwin
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- indian defence forum
Let's hope we get the contract signed with France.
Hmm last week during concall Dr SK Jha of Midhani did touch upon that point a bit, later there were some more explanation which I can post later if wanted.
Once material procurement/availability/mfg reaches a certain stage we will notice quick progress.
Sorry, the reasons you have given are all excuses - even Covid is an excuse.
We are not building an aircraft for the first time (or ship) - We have a history of building for generations. This is where Project Management comes in. Once the Design is frozen (which is never the case), Order everything needed in a timely manner and Match your assembly accordingly, Only then can we see good numbers produced every year
Case in point
You will need to read up on WHY shipbuilding is taking time
1) The designs are never frozen, i.e. everything from the hull to plumbing, to electrical, sensor, weapons, etc (the list goes on )
2) Since the designs are not frozen - we see ordering the equipment piecemeal and never the complete order - So if one of the equipment fails in delivery - leading to a delay
3) Another issue - it leads to changing of equipment or structure mid-way, leading to changing the design for the next hull
4) This is the very reason we DON'T see a large number of a single class - Except for P17A (7 hulls) - everything else 3 or 4 hulls
The Above is the same for Aircraft building! there is NO consequences or implication to a manufacturer for delays - no timeline is kept and if a date/milestone is kept - it is conveniently pushed forward. I'm still trying to remember which national program has met or was ahead of schedule.
The points i cited are applicable in different phases of the program. When you talk about schedule, what do we mean? is it just design phase schedule, or is it proto rollout schedule, or is it production? each phase has its own schedule and stakeholders that influence the outcome. For instance, ADA HAL CEMILAC RCMA IAF all are stakeholders in LCA program, but each of them is responsible for their part of the workshare. This is important because the program is not overseen by one single entity from start to finish & take necessary step whenever certain stage feels like its stuck at somewhere. So ADA would do design but will only be responsible for their share of work & their famous timeline habit.
About freezing a design config, yes it is frozen technically, each iteration has its own frozen design. Which is why Mk1a is not ADA responsibility anymore. Earlier they wanted mk1 & mk2 to be of same airframe, just engine switched to which IAF objected. Hence mk2 design gradually got shape through iterations. So far HAL and ADA have workshare agreement finalised & orders are being placed as & when. This is where the lack of pace in dev phase is vital. It took long for money to be sanctioned by govt, so the culture is not just the production house or design house fault.
Re the shipbuilding industry, its quite the same logic. Technology is changing very fast, new method are implemented very often. That is reflected in the industry as well. The first ship in any batch always take longer to build, but lead time comes down in subsequent batches. Everything goes thru a certain process of QA/QC and various other factors. Compared to 40 years ago, now shipbuilding has reached far more maturity while maintaining good schedule. The smae will happen with aerospace sector too. Competitive market dictate the same.
I dont think its no longer the case. NDB has addresses all of these issues. You will not see any shipyard complaining on these terms. You are refering to a decade old CAG report if im not wrong.
Why do you think we will be able to order more than 7-8 frigates on one go? These are extremely expensive ships even by the European standards. Its just not possible.
I am hoping RNaval is brought back online by new owners. Bought lots of shares at approx avg price of 2.13
What you said is more of excuses, finger pointing and less decisive decision-making
Yes, there are making stakeholders - BUT who is taking the lead??? who is the top person to put his/her foot down make a decision and stick to it? who?
My point is still not answered yet i.e. there is NO consequences or implication to a manufacturer for delays - no timeline is kept, no one is penalised. (All we do is chest-thumping when we penalize a foreign manufacturer and blacklist them)
A Frozen design is meant for a batch of frames - be it 10 or 20 numbers, there can't be any iteration of a frozen design for every frame
Yes agree - Technology is changing very fast - but since we work in IST - to acquire or build the same tech - it takes promises and ages to get it to the end-user. What do you expect to do in the meantime? - wait!!!?
The ask isn't hard - Just stick to a timeline and deliver
Just making a point and an example
But you have to admit - order just 3 or four for a single class and then waiting for the next class - will not make up for the numbers the IN needs in time
Even now - P17A is behind schedule - Correct me - wasn't the first of her class to be given to the IN for sea trails in 2023 - 2024?
See, that is the thing, there has not been a who type authority , because that who ie DRDO is in turn dependent on funding by the Govt. So right at the top of decision making tree you have multifaceted interest. That is not going to help any project. If there is shortage on every aspect of R&D, it would either not succeed or if succeeds, will be limited. Kaveri is good example , achievement of 73kn indi engine & now stuck at a threshold.
The tech part, wait for indi alternative or make interim arrangement is upto the stakeholders, and the work culture dictates the pace. As you said, the corrective measure of blacklisting that is done now, it is only good for political point scoring. The credible lack of urgency and will to make a project successful is lacking on many front. it is not the sole responsibility of the development agency.
3 or 4 a class is fine, as long as follow-on orders are placed. The issue is budget and production capacity.
The IN has only recently entered the 2 shipyards game, so more orders will come only with an increased budget, which will eventually happen. By the end of the decade, both IAF and IA will have sufficient funding as per requirements. And the IN will follow suit by 2035. We basically have to wait for the current defence budget to increase by at least 3 times. Once our capital budget increases to about $50B, we will be set to join the big boys club.
Will probably happen from when uttam is ready, 20-30 whatever only depends on timeline of mk1a radar being ready. We will probably get an idea if HAL buy those elta radars again in small no.
17th, the last I heard. That's from the second squadron onwards. The next one would be the 33rd, ie, the third squadron. Then 49th, and so on.
I believe each standard squadron will have 14 single-seats and 2 two-seats. That's 80 jets out of the 83 ordered.