Line of Actual Control (LAC) : India & Tibet Border Updates

I am referring to superiority over our T-72s.

The old Type 96 is obsolete, just like the T-72, and the Type 99 is too heavy to be used in Tibet and Ladakh, so we are unlikely to see it in action in our theatre.

The Type 15 has elements of modern design techniques, where armour can be kept low for transportation, but can be enchanced or uparmoured to the level of an MBT whenever required.

As for firepower, there's nothing special on the Type 15 that's comparable to anything in the West. It's our T-72 and T-90 that possess inadequate firepower, to the point that they barely compete with the Type 15. Our current tanks are decades behind the latest Western tanks when it comes to firepower. It's because our tank carousels are too small to accept the latest Russian ammo. The Russians are currently upgrading their T-90s to the latest level, and the T-90MS is their export version of the same. Which is why I said we should get a few hundred Japanese Type 10s for use in Ladakh and Sikkim, and equip them with whatever modern 120mm rounds the West is willing to export to us (very expensive option).

The gun isn't everything, the shell matters a lot more. For example, the Americans use a weaker German gun on their Abrams, it's a 44 cal version, whereas the Germans use a 55 cal version on their Leopards. Even then, the American shells penetrate more armour due to their shell design. To put things into context, based on open source info, the German rounds (tungsten) can penetrate 650-750mm of steel from 2Km away, the American rounds (DU) can penetrate 850mm of steel, with the latest round rumoured to do 1000mm+. The latest Russian rounds (tungsten) that cannot fit inside our tanks manage 650-700mm. Otoh, our T-72s and T-90s manage 450-500mm (Russian shells do 450mm, Israeli shells do 500mm and DRDO is hoping to achieve 550mm, all tungsten). Chinese shells for their MBTs are also now comparable with the West.

The T-72's armour is really weak. This is for the ones we operate.
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So you can expect the Type 15 to be much, much better than the values for the T-72.

Which is why we need at least the T-90s facing China, not the T-72s.

The T-72s are fine against Pakistan, in a way, where most of the tanks they have are much worse.
I understand what you are saying but my point regarding 105mm apfsds is that they are considered ineffective against era. Atleast that's what the logic was because of which nato shifted to l/44 in the first place from 105mm rifle guns. So even if they had amazing rounds I have doubts whether they will be able to successfully pen our t 72s at the first shot.
I would love if the t72 and t90 were upgrade to 2a46m5 but IA isn't upgrading the firepower for some reason and I have doubts a light tank will have more than 700 mm armour on the turret so our t series atgms and apfsds could very well pen the ztq 15's. Seeing how they reacted to our counterattacks I have huge doubts if the Chinese can employ armour properly or are they similar to the Saudis in using armour and infantry seperately...

Other question is that ztq 15 has modular armour, so according to you approximately how much could the type 15 be uparmoured like approx armour values on the hull and turret and do they havd like modular armour bloc similar to Leclerc and new leopard 2a7 or basically will they stack more layers of ERA on it.
 
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This was in response to two of our staff members in Pakistan being abducted by Pakistani goons.
I doubt China has anything to do with it.
It is a strong message to Pakistan none the less.

Yeah could be. But why India asked Pakistan to reduce their diplomatic presence as well?

What I think, the abduction of the two men by Pakistan was basically something else. The Pakistanis wanted to abduct but they abducted wrong people. And there after out of shame the Pakistanis lost their senses and started playing games after getting check mate. :p
So, India reducing its staff strength & asking Paxtan to do so by 50% is sending a message to China not to interfere in Indo Pak relations, is it ?

No. Why do you say that?
 
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Ok I found the 105mm apfsds of the chinese round so what would be the total penetration at 0 degrees because the angle is 66.4 degrees instead of the usual 60 degrees at which apfsds are usually tested by my estimates it's around 500-550mm which our t72 will be able to handle in my opinion..
 
I understand what you are saying but my point regarding 105mm apfsds is that they are considered ineffective against era.

Not at all. It depends on the shell design. Any shell that has tandem penetrator is capable of defeating ERA. You even get much smaller calibre RPGs with tandem charges.

Atleast that's what the logic was because of which nato shifted to l/44 in the first place from 105mm rifle guns. So even if they had amazing rounds I have doubts whether they will be able to successfully pen our t 72s at the first shot.
I would love if the t72 and t90 were upgrade to 2a46m5 but IA isn't upgrading the firepower for some reason and I have doubts a light tank will have more than 700 mm armour on the turret so our t series atgms and apfsds could very well pen the ztq 15's. Seeing how they reacted to our counterattacks I have huge doubts if the Chinese can employ armour properly or are they similar to the Saudis in using armour and infantry seperately...

That has more to do with the technology of the time.

ATGMs and HEAT today are not capable of penetrating 700mm of composite armour. Those values are for APFSDS.

Other question is that ztq 15 has modular armour, so according to you approximately how much could the type 15 be uparmoured like approx armour values on the hull and turret and do they havd like modular armour bloc similar to Leclerc and new leopard 2a7 or basically will they stack more layers of ERA on it.

They are said to add 3-4T of extra armour. I haven't seen how it's done though. Also, the Type 10 can uparmour itself with 8T of armour. But even the basic armour of the Type 15 should be better than the T-72M1.
 
Not at all. It depends on the shell design. Any shell that has tandem penetrator is capable of defeating ERA. You even get much smaller calibre RPGs with tandem charges.



That has more to do with the technology of the time.

ATGMs and HEAT today are not capable of penetrating 700mm of composite armour. Those values are for APFSDS.



They are said to add 3-4T of extra armour. I haven't seen how it's done though. Also, the Type 10 can uparmour itself with 8T of armour. But even the basic armour of the Type 15 should be better than the T-72M1.
I doubt the Japanese are ever going to sell the type10. The Turks wanted to use the engine and transmission of type 10 for their altay the deal ended up failing and the way Japanese are so cautious regarding exporting weapons I don't think it will happen. We haven't even been able to buy the US 2I and the deal has been stuck for more than 10 years and nobody even talks about it anymore....
 
I doubt the Japanese are ever going to sell the type10. The Turks wanted to use the engine and transmission of type 10 for their altay the deal ended up failing and the way Japanese are so cautious regarding exporting weapons I don't think it will happen. We haven't even been able to buy the US 2I and the deal has been stuck for more than 10 years and nobody even talks about it anymore....

The Turks want to export Japanese tech, which is why the deal failed.

It's also possible that its base armour is only around that of a standard light tank rather than a proper Cold War era medium weight tank. The LOS of the armour seems to be enough to be more than competitive with the T-72. But if it's not, then it won't be able to stand up to it.

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It appears to be more than competitive enough to me, with the add-on armour. A T-90 should be able to gobble it up without getting beaten up though.
 
Two important points on the galwan clash according to US intel

1) Order for the attack directly came from the top commander Gen. Zhao Zongqi, head of the Western Theater Command
2) Analysts familiar with Chinese military decision making say Xi Jinping would have almost certainly known about the orders.



The above points put the theory of tense situation made the fight go out of control to rest and this whole thing is a well planned ops with Jinping in loop and not the commander acting alone

There wasn't anything to discuss for a long time. Still the discussions have been going on. So it seems until there is a full blown armed conflict, both sides will continue to talk. However, imo, it's important to take the Chinese promises with a pinch of salt unless their are actions are in line with their words.


Global Times is getting hilarious. This has to be the funniest propaganda I have ever seen.


Global times is soon gonna regret having a twitter account with Indians trolling like this

 
Indian intelligence failure again? Heroism at Galwan must lead to reforms
India was napping in the 1950s when a strategic highway was built in Aksai Chin. Then again in 1999 at Kargil, and now in Ladakh.


AVM Manmohan Bahadur (retd) 23 June, 2020 9:51 am IST

Home they brought her warrior dead” — goes the opening lines of Alfred Tennyson’s famous poem. Unfortunately, it is now being repeated in at least 20 homes in India, and in the hearts of crores of Indians. While the immediate family and friends of those who died at the Line of Actual Control in the stand-off with China grieve with a pain that only they can feel, the rest of us wonder how this has come to pass.


Are we a country of perpetual sleepers? We were found sleeping in the 1950s when our northern neighbour went about building a strategic highway in Aksai Chin. Then it happened again in 1999 at Kargil, and now when the Chinese hoodwinked us and have come prepared with a plan in Galwan, Pangong Tso in Ladakh and Naku La in Sikkim.

Intelligence failure

We have been napping despite the creation of the Defence Intelligence Agency and the National Technical Research Organisation (NTRO) – both charged with collecting intelligence. The NTRO has no dearth of funds and operates its own unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs). Then there is the Research and Analysis Wing (R&AW), with its operatives and links abroad; there are the intelligence wings of the Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP), the Sashastra Seema Bal (SSB), and others — pray, what have they all been doing as the Chinese planned this operation?


The Cabinet Secretariat has specialised aircraft as part of its Aviation Research Centre with a task just to avoid a Galwan-like situation. And if they indeed did their job and had raised the red flag, who in the hierarchy didn’t follow up?After Kargil happened, the Director of Air Operations of the Pakistan Air Force, Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail, wrote that when he visited Skardu in Gilgit-Baltistan, he saw hectic activity – intense helicopter flying, messes abuzz with war-is-coming murmur –and was sure that Indian intelligence would have picked it up. We were none the wiser and got a rude shock when Capt. Saurabh Kalia’s mutilated body was returned even as we were stirring into action.



Now, the injuries to Indian soldiers have been replicated at Galwan, in a most brutal manner. Defence Secretary Ajay Kumar tweeted: “A zillion salutes to the brave hearts…(sic)”. Defence Minister Rajnath Singh tweeted his condolences, and Prime Minister Narendra Modi said that they “..died fighting… maarte maarte mare” and observed a two-minute silence with all the chief ministers in their honour.


Tennyson came back to mind, for he had followed up his “Home they brought her warrior dead…” verse with “Then they praised him, soft and low; called him worthy to be loved; truest friend and noblest foe…”. This was 1847 being repeated in 2020. Have we changed?

Getting down to real work

When will we change from our habit of just appreciating and going gaga over the words of our brave soldiers who said, “Yeh dil maange more” and climbed the hills of Kargil, never to return? Perhaps, a similar quote will form the narrative of Galwan when the full story of 16 Bihar regiment is written, and we will go to town with it in another round of symposia and seminars presided over by people in power – amidst much cutting of ribbons and garlanding of photo frames. But when will we get down to work — real work?


When will the head of capital acquisitions in the Ministry of Defence, and our political executive, understand that deterrence is derived from hard power, which our armed forces project, and not from ‘zillion salutes’ that are offered after an armed engagement? When will the Secretary of Defence Production accept that his/her department is in charge of, and responsible for, defence manufacturing output of not just government Defence Public Sector Undertakings (DPSUs) but private ones too, and work towards capability and capacity accretion?

Can we have a Union minister looking after defence production only? Can the ponderous Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) be stirred into action to give us cutting-edge technology? If we had that kind of power, our adversary China would not have launched the adventure that it has embarked on. And the power deferential shows in the way we reacted to Kargil and the way we are responding now.

No petty politics

Power flows through the barrel of a gun, said Mao, but a gun is not built in a day. It’s time that a long-term view of our capabilities and capacities is taken; the Chinese have a 100-year time-span to return to their claimed glory, as they see it.



At present, let the head rule the heart, our (rightly) inflamed passions notwithstanding. National security has to override political expediency, for only then will a bi-partisan approach emerge. Let us not have the spectacle of the photos of our 20 braves adorning election posters and platforms, a la the CRPF soldiers who died in Pulwama; let them not be used for petty political gains. The opposition of the day (tomorrow it may be another party) must be part of the process so that there is a strategic continuum, like in the nuclear and space sector.


The soldiers who died in Galwan, and the many who were grievously injured, belong to us all; they fought to protect the name of their paltan (regiment) and the nation in the highest tradition of the Indian Army. To paraphrase Tennyson — let this part be penned when we have paid our dues to our braves guarding us on those dangerous frontiers. For now, let us all, together, look the adversary in the eye.


The author is Addl Director General, Centre for Air Power Studies, Delhi. Views are personal.


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We can do the same thing to them.

You are incorrectly assuming that we are too weak to stop them.
No No No No NO!
I am not thinking of Military weakness. Not at all. Nope. Militarily India is decently strong. India is no USA but then it is no Bhutan either. It is more than decently strong. Even and Specially against China and its paper strong military.

I am only saying that after taking into consideration the "Dabba-Effect" (ie no sustained follow up and well executed long term offensive in favour of our national interests by our deep state) we should give up on such strategies as salami slicing. Dabbas of south block cann't do any thing long term. All things strategic in India happen in short term heat of the moment kind. For example : why the *censored* we always need emergency purchases? Reason? Dabbaz!

I mean had we been doing Salami slicing the chicken's neck you have grown thicker, Madheshis have been killing oli and declaring an intent to separate with villages joining Bihar every 2 years or so. Nothing of that kind ever happened. HECK, the biggest thing, Kashmir was always prime for salami slicing. We never did that! We could have creeped up but didn't happen.

Dabba-culture is slow moving and maneuverable as a dump truck. No one wants to change any strategies in south block. Dabbas don't work that way. They only change when they are FORCED to change. And current dabba culture is that of sleeping on the wheels.
 
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Missing part is "aggression of China". Confrontation is weak.

Its classic case of US looking after her interests as happened in 71. US knew the kind of horrors on going in East Pakistan. They did nothing because Pakistan was their conduit to China.

Its same once more. Only when things escalate to the point that it will look that all global commerce will be gone for good, the US will intervene.
 
Gurtej Singh, only 23, of 3 Punjab's Ghatak Platoon which reinforced 16 Bihar! He was seen carrying 4 Chinese soldiers with his hands alone & threw them over the ridge. He lost his balance & fell into the ridge but killed 12 Chinese soldiers with his bare hands. Valour story!


I have been in bodybuilding. I did squats with 110 Kg weights and bench pressed 80 Kgs. I don't think it's possible he is carrying four Chinese in his hands, certainly not by his physique in pic. However, it's possible he may have thrown himself with 4 Chinese into ridge provided he grabbed their arms.

I think we are going overboard. However noodle legged Chinese are, they don't weigh same as momos.