Line of Actual Control (LAC) : India & Tibet Border Updates

I have got some very surprising news which goes completely against what has been peddaled in SM and twitter. China has not moved S-400 with all its compliments to Aksai Hind. They are shit scared of Japs and Americans and have kept the three regiments which they have in Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzou which covers Hongkong. The radars have been moved but not the missiles. The Chinese border to the Est is incapable of defending any assualt from Japs, Taiwan and Americans. They had factored that in when they came to Galwan. They wanted to check how the world will behave and if the QUAD had not acted the way they did and if IA had not responded the way did AND if Modi had not spoken the way he did today, they would have gone ahead with a limited war with India by now. Many members and twitter handles are claiming that Chinese will wait for winters and snowfall. This is not true. They think that IA is now much better prepared to fight in winters than what it was in 1962.
I foresee IA going into offensive. Chinese do not have air defense in East if they move S-400 to western Tibet.
I agree, but your plate is full and there to stay. You will get additional orders.
 
Surprisingly no UK !! Even the MEA thinks UK is of little consequence . It's pathetic, I tell you , the way the stock of the UK has fallen over the years but particularly since Brexit & the Chinese pandemic. The Iranians think you're of no importance. The Chinese openly spite you. Now the Indians have, well, for want of a better word, snubbed you . @BMD
 
In the immediate time span what he's saying is we lack the capacity to take on China which in the present situation means that we should cut our losses & accept the new normal. Are you in agreement with what the ex COAS has declared? . Mind you, you've yourself posted different arguments on this at different times in the last 1 month, tailoring your argument to the situation.

From arguing that we cannot take on China now & that we should wait till 2022-23 to do so to arguing that our perceived losses aren't substantial that merit a localised war to at times suggesting that in case we wage war we could prevail on the Chinese to now what you've just posted. What's exactly your stand?

He's made two points on this issue...

First one:
The use of force should be considered only after exhausting all possible non-kinetic options.

I've already pointed out that it should be so. He has not dismissed the use of force at all.

Second one:
Today, India has the military capability to give China a bloody nose. However, the political leadership will also require large tracts of real estate across the border to enable post-conflict negotiations from a position of strength.

He's referring to how we are capable of fighting today, but the govt should finish raising the full Mountain Strike Corps in order to invade and hold large tracts of land on the Chinese side. This will take a year or two as well.

Whatever the case, we need to give time before we fight a war. But we have the option of doing very limited strikes, not amounting to war, to send home the message that things will change a lot if the Chinese do not retreat.

This is a carbon copy of everything I have said.
 

Propaganda. No point supporting a view based on made up stories.

Like that utter nonsense about MKI in Leh or the Balakot strikes.

The M2000 we used were the old version and carried an export grade weapon, both of which PAF has plenty of information on. Each M2000 can carry only 2 such weapons. This way we didn't give away anything. Otoh, the MKI is capable of carrying 20 SAAWs, which are each as effective as the Spice 2000 version we used in Balakot and can be fired from twice the range.

One can imagine how effective the MKI will be when just 2 aircraft can carry 40 such weapons, with each of them individually programmed to hit a static target. It will be pretty retarded on our part to allow their radars to steal the signatures of the MKI carrying the SAAW in an anti-terrorist strike when in just a few years those M2000s will be upgraded with new capability and will also carry more modern Indian weapons, thereby preventing the PAF to gain any sort of significant advantage.

The MKIs were entirely capable of performing the same strike. Those 12 new MKIs with the SAAW have more than twice as much strike capability as our entire fleet of M2000s. The 12 MKIs can wipe out an entire air base from over 100Km away with 240 SAAWs. One can imagine how well we will be able to use it to pepper all those Chinese defences in the LAC with sheer numbers.

There is also the possibility that the IAF wanted the excuse necessary to cross the LoC. In order to strike Balakot with the Spice, the M2000s needed to cross the LoC since the weapon's range is just 50-60Km. Otoh, the SAAW, which was the actual weapon of choice, has a range of 120Km and can be comfortably fired from well within Indian air space.

IAF operates the M2000, and now even the Rafale, suffice to say both are as advanced or more advanced than anything in the West, and the IAF still decided to go ahead with the procurement of more Mig-29 and MKI, which should tell you the aircraft are good enough to make such a decision.
 
Surprisingly no UK !! Even the MEA thinks UK is of little consequence . It's pathetic, I tell you , the way the stock of the UK has fallen over the years but particularly since Brexit & the Chinese pandemic. The Iranians think you're of no importance. The Chinese openly spite you. Now the Indians have, well, for want of a better word, snubbed you . @BMD

According to the tweet, all P5 countries minis China were briefed by the FS. That would include the UK.
 
Propaganda. No point supporting a view based on made up stories.

Like that utter nonsense about MKI in Leh or the Balakot strikes.

The M2000 we used were the old version and carried an export grade weapon, both of which PAF has plenty of information on. Each M2000 can carry only 2 such weapons. This way we didn't give away anything. Otoh, the MKI is capable of carrying 20 SAAWs, which are each as effective as the Spice 2000 version we used in Balakot and can be fired from twice the range.

One can imagine how effective the MKI will be when just 2 aircraft can carry 40 such weapons, with each of them individually programmed to hit a static target. It will be pretty retarded on our part to allow their radars to steal the signatures of the MKI carrying the SAAW in an anti-terrorist strike when in just a few years those M2000s will be upgraded with new capability and will also carry more modern Indian weapons, thereby preventing the PAF to gain any sort of significant advantage.

The MKIs were entirely capable of performing the same strike. Those 12 new MKIs with the SAAW have more than twice as much strike capability as our entire fleet of M2000s. The 12 MKIs can wipe out an entire air base from over 100Km away with 240 SAAWs. One can imagine how well we will be able to use it to pepper all those Chinese defences in the LAC with sheer numbers.

There is also the possibility that the IAF wanted the excuse necessary to cross the LoC. In order to strike Balakot with the Spice, the M2000s needed to cross the LoC since the weapon's range is just 50-60Km. Otoh, the SAAW, which was the actual weapon of choice, has a range of 120Km and can be comfortably fired from well within Indian air space.

IAF operates the M2000, and now even the Rafale, suffice to say both are as advanced or more advanced than anything in the West, and the IAF still decided to go ahead with the procurement of more Mig-29 and MKI, which should tell you the aircraft are good enough to make such a decision.
Are all mki squadrons upgraded to carry SAAW? And whats the warhead size for SAAW?
 
@Picdelamirand-oil, Your lines are full for next four years and you can not give us more fighters in the limited time period even if you ramp up your production. The situation on LAC with China may become HOT like LOC with Pakistan with near daily battles with PLA and PLAAF. We need numbers which you can't provide and the purchase of these 33 fighters is for that reason.
Rafale has not been proven in any actual battle. Libya was hardly a full fledged battle with a corresponding superior airforce of a nation like China not being part of it. Rafale will be tested in actual battle now. I am sure it will come out with shining colours like M2K did. But let us not be very greedy.
Then what is the use of Astrology? Whether war will happen as per astrology? Who will dominate?
I told you that unlike 1962 when China had upper hand, this time with similar positioning of planets, India has the upper hand. Infect much higher upper hand.
 
Surprisingly no UK !! Even the MEA thinks UK is of little consequence . It's pathetic, I tell you , the way the stock of the UK has fallen over the years but particularly since Brexit & the Chinese pandemic. The Iranians think you're of no importance. The Chinese openly spite you. Now the Indians have, well, for want of a better word, snubbed you . @BMD
Expect them to raise a question about kashmir in parliament to seek our attention.
 
He's made two points on this issue...

First one:
The use of force should be considered only after exhausting all possible non-kinetic options.

I've already pointed out that it should be so. He has not dismissed the use of force at all.

Second one:
Today, India has the military capability to give China a bloody nose. However, the political leadership will also require large tracts of real estate across the border to enable post-conflict negotiations from a position of strength.

He's referring to how we are capable of fighting today, but the govt should finish raising the full Mountain Strike Corps in order to invade and hold large tracts of land on the Chinese side. This will take a year or two as well.

Whatever the case, we need to give time before we fight a war. But we have the option of doing very limited strikes, not amounting to war, to send home the message that things will change a lot if the Chinese do not retreat.

This is a carbon copy of everything I have said.
Again , look at the contradictions in what you've posted. With respect to the ex CoAS's article, he has in conclusion denied the IA's capacity to take on the Chinese as of the present & restore the status quo ante without explicitly saying so for reasons which are obvious.

He sounds like we have the capacity to do so in a very oblique manner & then goes about proving the exactly the opposite which is why I asked if you've the ability to read between the lines.

OTOH, you , for reasons you best know have surmised that the CoAS states we do have the capacity to take on the Chinese & restore the status quo ante if the situation so requires implying that his statement matches with your own thoughts but if we can postpone such action till such time as we raise a MC among other things, we should opt for it.

This isn't confidence in our abilities . It's just another variation of what Gen V. P. Malik stated at the outset of the Kargil war - We will fight with what we have. Which in turn is another pathetic & perverted variation of what the IA did in 1962 without anyone in the senior leadership of the IA saying so at the outset of the 1962 war. Of course the one who said so was eased out, namely Gen Thimmaya but that's a story for another day.

Which in turn brings me to what I & some other members here have explicitly stated that India can restore the status quo ante but that it's going to be a bloody & long border war of attrition which may well spill over into other realms & may also involve a two front scenario.
 
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The REAL QUESTION is that After
MODI' S visit to Ladakh , will De escalation happen or Will the Chinese
Take it as an insult and dug in further

After the latest LT GEN talks , it was said that De escalation will happen
 
Yeah, about PoK, we aren't getting that back. This is the state of a govt with this amount of majority and public support. This is the strongest India has been militarily since independence.
Actually NO. India in 2014 was the weakest militarily in decades(relative to Pakistan and China) and a desperate attempt is being made to plug that gap. I don't even know from where you got that "India is strongest militarily since independence" until and unless you are measuring in absolute terms. Of course, India is stronger than what it was 20 years ago. LOL. Also if you have a problem with a weak RW government that is standing up to China for the first time since 1986 please vote for a strong LW govt that gives away land without resistance,
 
Again , look at the contradictions in what you've posted. With respect to the ex CoAS's article, he has in conclusion denied the IA's capacity to take on the Chinese as of the present & restore the status quo ante without explicitly saying so for reasons which are obvious.

He sounds like we have the capacity to do so in a very oblique manner & then goes about proving the entire opposite which is why I asked if you've the ability to read between the lines.

OTOH, you , for reasons you best know have surmised that the CoAS states we do have the capacity to take on the Chinese & restore the status quo ante if the situation so requires implying that his statement matches with your own thoughts but if we can postpone such action till such time as we raise a MC among other things, we should opt for it. This isn't confidence in our abilities . It's just another variation of what Gen V. P. Malik stated at the outset of the Kargil war - We will fight with what we have. Which in turn is another pathetic & perverted variation of what the IA did in 1962 without anyone in the senior leadership of the IS saying so at the outset of the 1962 war. Of course the one who said so was eased out, namely Gen Thimmaya but that's a story for another day.

Not at all. He is very specific when he says kinetic options can be used. The end goal is to obviously restore status quo. If we can't, then he would have directly said what you're trying to say. His main objective in the article regarding forces is to get the govt to create the ability to take the war into China.

I've pointed this out a long time ago, war is for the rich and we should fight only if we are sure of taking the war to Beijing. These two facts will never change. And in that sense, we are totally not ready to fight a war with China. Similarly, the Chinese cannot take the war to Delhi anyway.

The Chinese will also fight with what they have. They are in the same boat as us, just a little bit better when it comes to the widespread use of indigenous tech due to their greater financial clout. Even they are not rich enough to fight India, which is actually why both countries do not want to fight. According to the Chinese, they will be ready to fight a war with any adversary only after 2035.

You are confusing too many things with too many other things. An India and China war is not going to be any different than a championship bout between two top seeded boxers, while the Americans are the literal elephant in the room that even the two of us combined cannot defeat as we are today.

Of all the people I have seen and heard, only those with no military background have said we need external assistance to fight a border war with China. As we are today, the only way for China to gain an advantage over us is if we also end up having to fight Pakistan at the same time.

Which in turn brings me to what I & some other members here have explicitly stated that India can restore the status quo ante but that it's going to be a bloody & long border war of attrition which may well spill over into other realms which may also involve a two front scenario.

If we go to war today, that's how it's going to be. But within 3 years, nope. We will have the ability to bury them in the mountains with the stuff we are getting, hopefully with some more added to the kitty by then. It's far too overwhelming. A combination of air superiority and precision weapons will be absolutely devastating in the mountains.

For example, what I said in post 4808, a full scale attack using a few hundred SAAWs will overwhelm their air defence and wipe out pretty much all the main infrastructure from fingers 4 to 8 at Pangong. All we need is those 12 MKIs. A single attack lasting 10 min or so. This type of an air attack has come into existence only a decade ago. Even if the air defence is advanced and creates some problems, the Rafale can take care of it.
 
Propaganda. No point supporting a view based on made up stories.

Like that utter nonsense about MKI in Leh or the Balakot strikes.

The M2000 we used were the old version and carried an export grade weapon, both of which PAF has plenty of information on. Each M2000 can carry only 2 such weapons. This way we didn't give away anything. Otoh, the MKI is capable of carrying 20 SAAWs, which are each as effective as the Spice 2000 version we used in Balakot and can be fired from twice the range.

One can imagine how effective the MKI will be when just 2 aircraft can carry 40 such weapons, with each of them individually programmed to hit a static target. It will be pretty retarded on our part to allow their radars to steal the signatures of the MKI carrying the SAAW in an anti-terrorist strike when in just a few years those M2000s will be upgraded with new capability and will also carry more modern Indian weapons, thereby preventing the PAF to gain any sort of significant advantage.

The MKIs were entirely capable of performing the same strike. Those 12 new MKIs with the SAAW have more than twice as much strike capability as our entire fleet of M2000s. The 12 MKIs can wipe out an entire air base from over 100Km away with 240 SAAWs. One can imagine how well we will be able to use it to pepper all those Chinese defences in the LAC with sheer numbers.

There is also the possibility that the IAF wanted the excuse necessary to cross the LoC. In order to strike Balakot with the Spice, the M2000s needed to cross the LoC since the weapon's range is just 50-60Km. Otoh, the SAAW, which was the actual weapon of choice, has a range of 120Km and can be comfortably fired from well within Indian air space.

IAF operates the M2000, and now even the Rafale, suffice to say both are as advanced or more advanced than anything in the West, and the IAF still decided to go ahead with the procurement of more Mig-29 and MKI, which should tell you the aircraft are good enough to make such a decision.
I agree with you completely.
 
Surprisingly no UK !! Even the MEA thinks UK is of little consequence . It's pathetic, I tell you , the way the stock of the UK has fallen over the years but particularly since Brexit & the Chinese pandemic. The Iranians think you're of no importance. The Chinese openly spite you. Now the Indians have, well, for want of a better word, snubbed you . @BMD
Let us laugh at UK. They are not even in consideration in WW3. Let them sort out BREXIT first if they can before being of any use to the world. Europe did not have a system of toilets till they came to India. The average height of European males was 5.5ft and Indians at that time had an average height of 5.9ft. Entire Britain used to shit in bylanes. Read about how Paris was at the time of revolution. British ruined us. Now is the time to sort them out alongwith Chinese.
 
Surprisingly no UK !! Even the MEA thinks UK is of little consequence . It's pathetic, I tell you , the way the stock of the UK has fallen over the years but particularly since Brexit & the Chinese pandemic. The Iranians think you're of no importance. The Chinese openly spite you. Now the Indians have, well, for want of a better word, snubbed you . @BMD
5 eyes intelligence sharing. When you told the US you told the UK, Canada, Aus and NZ.
 
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Not at all. He is very specific when he says kinetic options can be used. The end goal is to obviously restore status quo. If we can't, then he would have directly said what you're trying to say. His main objective in the article regarding forces is to get the govt to create the ability to take the war into China.


I think I've clearly stated what I think his views are & his compulsions for stating them. He's not confident of our abilities in taking on the Chinese now. He's said as much if you can read berwen the lines.

I've pointed this out a long time ago, war is for the rich and we should fight only if we are sure of taking the war to Beijing. These two facts will never change. And in that sense, we are totally not ready to fight a war with China. Similarly, the Chinese cannot take the war to Delhi anyway.
The Chinese have already come in & are sitting on our side of the land ( nuances about our perception of the LAC be damned) . Are you trying to telling me the Chinese wouldn't have factored in what would happen would India retaliate & this turns into an intense border war with a chance of further escalation? Because that's what it sounds like.

OTOH, if we aren't sure of taking the fight to China, what do you suggest we do? Sit back & watch them gobble up the land they've just occupied?


The Chinese will also fight with what they have. They are in the same boat as us, just a little bit better when it comes to the widespread use of indigenous tech due to their greater financial clout. Even they are not rich enough to fight India, which is actually why both countries do not want to fight. According to the Chinese, they will be ready to fight a war with any adversary only after 2035.
Already answered this one above. The 2020's were always going to be a decade of reckoning between India & China. I think quite a few informed commentators came to the same conclusion. The reason being India would narrow the gap between deterrence & defeat considerably w.r.t China especially if one were to factor the Pakistani angle too - their decline has been sharper & more pronounced than earlier expectations & certainly faster than our rise which complicates the security matrix for China . It's just that the Chinese pandemic brought that date forward & the Indian establishment to a certain extent was caught napping.


You are confusing too many things with too many other things. An India and China war is not going to be any different than a championship bout between two top seeded boxers, while the Americans are the literal elephant in the room that even the two of us combined cannot defeat as we are today.

Of all the people I have seen and heard, only those with no military background have said we need external assistance to fight a border war with China. As we are today, the only way for China to gain an advantage over us is if we also end up having to fight Pakistan at the same time.
I don't know what are you on about? Where did I ever state we would need external military assistance to fight the Chinese or even w.r.t your useless analogy of two prize fighters in a ring for championship with the US being the elephant in the room?

If we go to war today, that's how it's going to be. But within 3 years, nope. We will have the ability to bury them in the mountains with the stuff we are getting, hopefully with some more added to the kitty by then. It's far too overwhelming. A combination of air superiority and precision weapons will be absolutely devastating in the mountains.
I suppose you think in the next three years we're going to have a fairy godmother revive our economy, provide us with all the arms & ammo required for that contest & the Chinese will be in deep slumber for all that time, isn't it? This is what I meant by attracting the clinically insane. Your optimism isn't sunny beyond belief or infectious anymore. It's insane.
For example, what I said in post 4808, a full scale attack using a few hundred SAAWs will overwhelm their air defence and wipe out pretty much all the main infrastructure from fingers 4 to 8 at Pangong. All we need is those 12 MKIs. A single attack lasting 10 min or so. This type of an air attack has come into existence only a decade ago. Even if the air defence is advanced and creates some problems, the Rafale can take care of it.
Sure. Why end with only Su-30 MKI & SAAW + Rafales. Throw in the Brahmos too & any other weapon or platform you may have on our wish list.
 
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