Line of Actual Control (LAC) : India & Tibet Border Updates

What if the aim of Chinese is different?
What if their aim is to distract us from LoC and to reduce the resources for our Navy ?
We can afford that for sure .
But will it affect other operational prepardness?
You are reading far too much into the motives of PLA. They have failed in their mission and are once again left empty handed. Just wait and watch for another 25-30 days. They will be pleading with us to give them a face saver or there will be a short war which will again be lost by PLA.
 

India-China border row: 7th round of talks ends without any agreement

Ajai Shukla

On Tuesday evening, New Delhi and Beijing signed off on a joint press release to describe the previous day’s talks between senior military commanders of the two sides, in which there was no agreement to disengage or de-escalate.

All that the joint release on the seventh round of talks at Chushul could claim was a “sincere, in-depth and constructive exchange of views on disengagement along the Line of Actual Control (LAC)… [which] enhanced understanding of each other’s positions.”
In fact, after six previous rounds of talks that began in early June, both sides already had a complete understanding of each other’s positions, which remained unchanged from the preceding sixth rounds held on September 21.

India’s core demand remains a troop pull-back by China to positions both sides held in April, before the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) trespassed across the LAC into the Galwan, Hot Springs, Pangong Tso and Depsang sectors.

China’s position, on the other hand, remains that it will only discuss a pull back after the Indian Army vacates the tactically dominating positions it occupied south of Pangong Tso at the end of August.


Suggesting a hardening of stance, Tuesday’s media release is silent on concrete steps to mitigate the confrontation. The September 21 statement had resolved to “strengthen communication on the ground, avoid misunderstandings and misjudgments, stop sending more troops to the frontline, refrain from unilaterally changing the situation on the ground, and avoid taking any actions that may complicate the situation”.

In the absence of any tactical agreements, Tuesday’s media release, like the September 21 statement, adopted a standard Chinese formulation: “Both sides agreed to earnestly implement the important understandings reached by the leaders of the two countries, not to turn differences into disputes, and jointly safeguard peace and tranquility in the border areas.”

As of now, it is unclear whether any utility is seen in an eighth round of military-to-military talks. While the September 21 statement had “agreed to hold the 7th round of military commander-level meeting as soon as possible”, Tuesday’s joint release only “agreed to maintain dialogue and communication through military and diplomatic channels”.

China analysts do not see any “give” in Beijing’s position. Yun Sun of the Washington DC-based Stimson Centre believes New Delhi is missing some fundamental aspects of the strategic personality of Chinese President Xi Jinping.

“I don’t think Xi ever got over the 2017 Doklam standoff and China’s loss of face, [notwithstanding] the abrupt, unnatural and artificially engineered ‘rapprochement’ between Xi and Modi at Wuhan (2018) and Chennai (2019). Xi’s style is to gain face back where he lost it, so the event this year, and China’s surprising aggressiveness has been brewing for the past three years,” says Sun.

Sun believes Beijing is reconciled to having India as a strategic adversary. “Many Chinese feel that they never ‘had’ India to begin with. The mutual distrust and embedded hostility in the society and in the policymaking circles has led to an understanding that India was never China’s friend or partner. This forms an interesting contrast to the Indian perception that China betrayed India,” she says.

As winter takes hold in Eastern Ladakh, the failure of disengagement talks means the new frontlines are being frozen, figuratively as well as literally. The Indian Army has matched the PLA’s induction of 35,000-50,000 additional troops to hold the front lines through winter. A logistics race is underway to provide ammunition, living shelters, food and, above all, heating fuel to enable soldiers to survive at temperatures of minus 20 degrees Celsius, which is effectively lowered by another 30 degrees Celsius by the wind chill factor.
 
You are reading far too much into the motives of PLA. They have failed in their mission and are once again left empty handed. Just wait and watch for another 25-30 days. They will be pleading with us to give them a face saver or there will be a short war which will again be lost by PLA.
you are right China is failed in its main objective.
 

India-China border row: 7th round of talks ends without any agreement

Ajai Shukla

On Tuesday evening, New Delhi and Beijing signed off on a joint press release to describe the previous day’s talks between senior military commanders of the two sides, in which there was no agreement to disengage or de-escalate.

All that the joint release on the seventh round of talks at Chushul could claim was a “sincere, in-depth and constructive exchange of views on disengagement along the Line of Actual Control (LAC)… [which] enhanced understanding of each other’s positions.”
In fact, after six previous rounds of talks that began in early June, both sides already had a complete understanding of each other’s positions, which remained unchanged from the preceding sixth rounds held on September 21.

India’s core demand remains a troop pull-back by China to positions both sides held in April, before the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) trespassed across the LAC into the Galwan, Hot Springs, Pangong Tso and Depsang sectors.

China’s position, on the other hand, remains that it will only discuss a pull back after the Indian Army vacates the tactically dominating positions it occupied south of Pangong Tso at the end of August.


Suggesting a hardening of stance, Tuesday’s media release is silent on concrete steps to mitigate the confrontation. The September 21 statement had resolved to “strengthen communication on the ground, avoid misunderstandings and misjudgments, stop sending more troops to the frontline, refrain from unilaterally changing the situation on the ground, and avoid taking any actions that may complicate the situation”.

In the absence of any tactical agreements, Tuesday’s media release, like the September 21 statement, adopted a standard Chinese formulation: “Both sides agreed to earnestly implement the important understandings reached by the leaders of the two countries, not to turn differences into disputes, and jointly safeguard peace and tranquility in the border areas.”

As of now, it is unclear whether any utility is seen in an eighth round of military-to-military talks. While the September 21 statement had “agreed to hold the 7th round of military commander-level meeting as soon as possible”, Tuesday’s joint release only “agreed to maintain dialogue and communication through military and diplomatic channels”.

China analysts do not see any “give” in Beijing’s position. Yun Sun of the Washington DC-based Stimson Centre believes New Delhi is missing some fundamental aspects of the strategic personality of Chinese President Xi Jinping.

“I don’t think Xi ever got over the 2017 Doklam standoff and China’s loss of face, [notwithstanding] the abrupt, unnatural and artificially engineered ‘rapprochement’ between Xi and Modi at Wuhan (2018) and Chennai (2019). Xi’s style is to gain face back where he lost it, so the event this year, and China’s surprising aggressiveness has been brewing for the past three years,” says Sun.

Sun believes Beijing is reconciled to having India as a strategic adversary. “Many Chinese feel that they never ‘had’ India to begin with. The mutual distrust and embedded hostility in the society and in the policymaking circles has led to an understanding that India was never China’s friend or partner. This forms an interesting contrast to the Indian perception that China betrayed India,” she says.

As winter takes hold in Eastern Ladakh, the failure of disengagement talks means the new frontlines are being frozen, figuratively as well as literally. The Indian Army has matched the PLA’s induction of 35,000-50,000 additional troops to hold the front lines through winter. A logistics race is underway to provide ammunition, living shelters, food and, above all, heating fuel to enable soldiers to survive at temperatures of minus 20 degrees Celsius, which is effectively lowered by another 30 degrees Celsius by the wind chill factor.
Our baniya no 1 thought that just like back home in Gujarat, all such misgivings & disputes could be tackled by generous helpings of ghaatiya fafda, dokla etc to be washed down with copious amounts of sugary sweet milky tea & lots of sweet talk.

If one can excuse Modi of strategic naivete bordering on stupidity one wonders how does one exactly explain the role of the MEA & it's mandarins especially that of the all wise & powerful China Study Group which seems to have become the favourite haunt of superannuated MEA bureaucrats seeking job extensions with all the attendant perks.

Can't help but see why what happened since Apr'20 on the LAC makes for a compelling case to get in expert opinions & advisers from outside to staff at least the CSG in order to present a counter point to the dominant & at present exclusive narrative of the MEA prevalent at all levels guiding our interactions with China.

China has been claiming since 2009 that they don't consider they share an approximately 4000 kms border with India but some 2800 kms effectively leaving out Ladakh. They've recently repeated their claim in as explicit a manner as one can saying they do not recognize the UT of Ladakh as a part of India. I've yet to come across a robust response by India which isn't mandated but neither is there any great activity to pre empt the Chinese on the ground too assuming they're here to stay & won't press their claims as of today beyond what they've occupied on the LAC.

But the scheduled modernization of the PLA is expected to be completed by 2022-23 Assuming that's when they will lauch all out invasion to take over Ladakh in tandem with the PA how exactly have we gamed our response? We haven't even completed the task of setting up the MSC in totality but left it half done. There's now talk of raising another MSC & a debate seems to have begun among some ex servicemen & think tanks between raising a 2nd MSC & going in for extensive modernisation minus addition in boots on ground with a 3rd section advising a combination of both as if we've the luxury of time on our side.

To just give ppl here an idea of how disgusting the state of affairs are, just recently around two weeks ago the UN was commemorating the world disarmament day & the mother fxxking MEA went right ahead & issued a statement full of the usual platitudes underlining India's commitment to it by re iterating India's NFU policy , that too at a time like this whereas the RM Rajnath Singh goes on the record a few days ago, admitting to a possible two front war - the first time a senior minister of the GoI has done so since the crisis on the LAC began. Gives you an idea of the kind of co ordination between different arms of the government & the seriousness with which they're taking the situation at hand.
 
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Our baniya no 1 thought that just like back home in Gujarat, all such misgivings & disputes could be tackled by generous helpings of ghaatiya fafda, dokla etc to be washed down with copious amounts of sugary sweet milky tea & lots of sweet talk.

If one can excuse Modi of strategic naivete bordering on stupidity one wonders how does one exactly explain the role of the MEA & it's mandarins especially that of the all wise & powerful China Study Group which seems to have become the favourite haunt of superannuated MEA bureaucrats seeking job extensions with all the attendant perks.

Can't help but see why what happened since Apr'20 on the LAC makes for a compelling case to get in expert opinions & advisers from outside to staff at least the CSG in order to present a counter point to the dominant & at present exclusive narrative of the MEA prevalent at all levels guiding our interactions with China.

China has been claiming since 2009 that they don't consider they share an approximately 4000 kms border with India but some 2800 kms effectively leaving out Ladakh. They've recently repeated their claim in as explicit a manner as one can saying they do not recognize the UT of Ladakh as a part of India. I've yet to come across a robust response by India which isn't mandated but neither is there any great activity to pre empt the Chinese on the ground too assuming they're here to stay & won't press their claims as of today beyond what they've occupied on the LAC.

But the scheduled modernization of the PLA is expected to be completed by 2022-23 Assuming that's when they will lauch all out invasion to take over Ladakh in tandem with the PA how exactly have we gamed our response? We haven't even completed the task of setting up the MSC in totality but left it half done. There's now talk of raising another MSC & a debate seems to have begun among some ex servicemen & think tanks between raising a 2nd MSC & going in for extensive modernisation minus addition in boots on ground with a 3rd section advising a combination of both as if we've the luxury of time on our side.

To just give ppl here an idea of how disgusting the state of affairs are, just recently around two weeks ago the UN was commemorating the world disarmament day & the mother fxxking MEA went right ahead & issued a statement full of the usual platitudes underlining India's commitment to it by re iterating India's NFU policy , that too at a time like this whereas the RM Rajnath Singh goes on the record a few days ago, admitting to a possible two front war - the first time a senior minister of the GoI has done so since the crisis on the LAC began. Gives you an idea of the kind of co ordination between different arms of the government & the seriousness with which they're taking the situation at hand.

So we should Publically announce a change of NFU , so that next day stock market crashes and Indian Bond Interest rates rise suddenly causing a fall in the Rupee

And all Commercial ships start charging more for delivery to India

Do you really think that India will
" WAIT to be Nuked by Pakistan "

NFU can be changed in a Minute
When push comes to shove

It is just a statement , Not a law
 
So we should Publically announce a change of NFU , so that next day stock market crashes and Indian Bond Interest rates rise suddenly causing a fall in the Rupee

And all Commercial ships start charging more for delivery to India

Do you really think that India will
" WAIT to be Nuked by Pakistan "

NFU can be changed in a Minute
When push comes to shove

It is just a statement , Not a law
There's a vast span of landscape to be covered between affirming the NFU & renouncing it forming 2 poles with everything from silence on it to ambiguity forming significant landmarks in between.

For all your years on such fora you've certainly not learnt much about the art of diplomacy & conveying a message w/o saying much or anything at all.

And you can't suddenly go from NFU to renouncing it in a day. That's not how these things work. At least in India & like minded countries. It works for nations like NK or Iran or even a Pakistan which is why they are where they are with the kind of respect & credibility they enjoy in the international community.
 
And you can't suddenly go from NFU to renouncing it in a day. That's not how these things work. At least in India & like minded countries. It works for nations like NK or Iran or even a Pakistan which is why they are where they are with the kind of respect & credibility they enjoy in the international community.

See those who are aware of the power of Nukes will tell you that to Wait for a Nuke to fall on your city
or a NFU will only lead to a situation where you can be dis armed by a First Strike

All the BIG 3 countries , have deliberately ambiguous policy regarding Nukes
Which also makes them open to the idea of
Pre Emptive Strikes

So why should.India be any different
When our Arsenal is smaller

A smaller arsenal can be disabled by a First strike

By the way do you think that if Pakistan nukes us and we suffer damage to All our Command and Control systems , will Russia or US
Retaliate on our Behalf
 
See those who are aware of the power of Nukes will tell you that to Wait for a Nuke to fall on your city
or a NFU will only lead to a situation where you can be dis armed by a First Strike

All the BIG 3 countries , have deliberately ambiguous policy regarding Nukes
Which also makes them open to the idea of
Pre Emptive Strikes

So why should.India be any different
When our Arsenal is smaller

A smaller arsenal can be disabled by a First strike

By the way do you think that if Pakistan nukes us and we suffer damage to All our Command and Control systems , will Russia or US
Retaliate on our Behalf
That's what the policy of NFU entails. NFU even if you're aware that the missiles launched at you would be N armed. You can prevent it by resorting to pre emption w/o usage of N weapons to do so. MP & later SS Menon sought to introduce ambiguity into it by suggesting if India perceived Pakistan as readying N weapons for launch they could prevent it with N weapons if necessary arguing that our NFU policy didn't apply to pre emption. The entire issue was left at that stoking significant controversy w/o the GoI coming up with further clarifications on the topic.

Now, the recent re iteration of the NFU by the MEA at this time has taken us back to square one.
 
Now, the recent re iteration of the NFU by the MEA at this time has taken us back to square one.

MEA is a Nobody when it comes to NFU

MEA' s job is to say things which the World Media wants to hear

You shouldn't forget the power of Left liberal media like WAPO , NYT , CNN
Who already hate India and Modi

Why should we give them any chance to write against India
 
That's what the policy of NFU entails. NFU even if you're aware that the missiles launched at you would be N armed. You can prevent it by resorting to pre emption w/o usage of N weapons to do so. MP & later SS Menon sought to introduce ambiguity into it by suggesting if India perceived Pakistan as readying N weapons for launch they could prevent it with N weapons if necessary arguing that our NFU policy didn't apply to pre emption. The entire issue was left at that stoking significant controversy w/o the GoI coming up with further clarifications on the topic.

Now, the recent re iteration of the NFU by the MEA at this time has taken us back to square one.
Nfu is a smart move. No first use applies only in peace conditions. In war condition you can anyways nuke those *censored* and cite reasons such as, preemptive strike etc.
 
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You are reading far too much into the motives of PLA. They have failed in their mission and are once again left empty handed. Just wait and watch for another 25-30 days. They will be pleading with us to give them a face saver or there will be a short war which will again be lost by PLA.
I am sure by now they had planned to raise a toast in karakoram pass. Unfortunately for them their biological weapon turned out to be made in China quality.
 
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Nfu is a smart move. No first use applies only in peace conditions. In war condition you can anyways nuke those *censored* and cite reasons such as, preemptive strike etc.

NFU is no move, its just optics. No one takes NFU as gospel truth coming from a nuclear armed nation. When the time comes, NFU will be dispatched to dust bin.
 
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It seems Chinese are in dilemma .
There first strategy was to push back us and expected the Covid issue will cause cold response from India ln side.
Turned out that i it was a back firing one .
Now under any circumstances they dont want a full scale war.
So initiated another strategy .
To boggeddown us in the border for long time to drain our resources .
As a retaliation because of our economic sanctions against them.Chinese economy can withstand that.
What about us ?@vstol Jockey @nair @Ashwin
They had come with an objective.......We have checkmated them....... Assuming that this was a thought out actions, they have misjudged their ability and our response..... but that doesn't mean that this over...... I believe this has began..... and not even completed the first lap and this is looking like a 70 lap full grand prix....