Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

[Picdelamirand-oil]

And I had also believed that Rafale's superiority is ensured only with the arrival of GaN for radar and EW suite by 2025. Sadly, even that's been postponed to 2030+. Now we know that the radar will be the same one as before, which puts it in the same class as what DRDO has already developed for the LCA, and they also claim it's better than what's on the Rafale. And F4.2 largely serves as a program meant to bridge the gap between the Rafale and F-35, like the addition of AGCAS and patrol link. GaN by 2025 was necessary to compete with the J-20, but now both F-35 and Rafale will get GaN around the same time.

I should explain the situation regarding the Rafale radar.
First I would like to talk about pulse compression, which is a process used to emit more energy to the target by spreading it out in time and compressing the return signal to get a detection.

I've already talked about it using the example of compression up to 30, because I thought that larger compressions were classified, and then I read in open source that the order of magnitude of the compression used by the ATL2 radar was of the order of 500. So that allows me to take more realistic examples for the Rafale.

Then I was also disappointed not to hear any more about GaN for F4.2, but a Thales insider told me that the price of this technology had dropped but that it was still expensive, so in the meantime we are doing something else: what is being developed is a multi-channel receiver, I was told that it also increases the range and that it has other qualities.

It is considered a new generation, the AN/APG-85 that will equip the F-35 will be multi-channel and so will the ECRS Mk2. Using this technology before GaN is interesting because the longer you wait for GaN the cheaper it will be, while the price of multi-channel is the same now and later.

The Rafale AESA antenna allows a detection of 160 km for a 1 m2 target, so assuming that the F-35 has a RCS of 0.0015 M2 it will be detected at 31.5 km. If we switch to GaN we multiply the power by 3 and the range becomes 41.5 km.

All this is well below the IRST range, which can be estimated at 100 km to detect the F-35. But we still have to measure the distance and for that we can use the Radar that we point in the direction given by the IRST, with a pulse compression of 100. If we have a GaN antenna, the necessary compression will only be 34. This is an advantage, but it is not essential.

On the other hand, one could not use these levels of compression to scan a large area, or one would have to do it very slowly so as not to generate heat that could not be extracted. But for one track or even 40 the extra heat generated is negligible.

 

[Innominate]

You forget that F35 is only stealth in some EM freq.
You forget that no fighter can be stealth in low band radar waves (this is why all new chinese destroyers are fitted with low band radar, for exemple).
You forget that F35 is unstealthy in Infra Red.

Lol. Non.

F-35 sees Rafale first by far and will have the first shot every time. You need to get that through your thick head, son.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Lol. Non.
View attachment 26384

F-35 sees Rafale first by far and will have the first shot every time. You need to get that through your thick head, son.

Heyyyy gurrrrrlll , Welcome back !

Instead of boring others to death with issues of little to no relevance like F-35 vs Rafale contest which you've indulged in for nearly a yr & a half now , how about making your no good a r s e useful & posting about how good it'd be against the J-20 or the upcoming 6th Gen Chinese FA ?

At the end of the day the Rafale isn't going head on with the F-35 , neither in Europe nor in the rest of the world coz you're both on the same side . Chowmeins are a different matter altogether. Btw we've a member here who thinks the Lightnings have already lost the battle against the J-20s . The MLU & FOC with all the bells & whistles it comes with around 2030 , isn't going to make any difference . I think you know whom am I referring to here.

How about going into attack dawg mode sorry attack b*tch mode like in the good old days , sweetie ?

 

[zinswinsin]

New radars could make a difference for the F-35. Lot 18 should be late 2025 or early 2026.

Although I think the most likely timeline for a Taiwan war would be 2025 especially if a Republican wins due to transition of power.

 

[BMD]

Norway.

 

[randomradio]

Same than your answer about capacity of Rafale vs F35 : one is ready and mature the other not.

The radar is ready, the jets are still WIP.

 

[Innominate]

In air to air, SEEN...

Not seen....

That there are still idiots left in this world that still argue that a 4th gen fighter that isn't stealth (Rafale) with pylons, missiles, and tanks hanging from its wings is better than an F-35 in the air to air realm shows the level of denialism of these fools. It truly is amazing.

Rafale's avionics are inferior to the F-35's, Rafale's AESA doesn't even have EW capability. If anything when debating which fighter is more capable in air to air when Rafale is in the discussion the F-35 shouldn't even be in the discussion at all and instead the F-16V, F-15EX, F-15E and F-18E should be the fighters in the discussion when the Rafale is brought up.

These US 4th gen fighters avionics are more capable than Rafale. Better radar and two of these fighters a much better EW capability.


You Rafale fanboys may now clutch one's pearls to this FACT!

 

[BMD]

BAE delivers 1,000th F-35 fuselage to Lockheed Martin

BAE Systems has delivered the 1,000th rear fuselage to Lockheed Martin for the F-35, the world's most advanced and capable fifth generation fighter.

www.aero-mag.com

 

[Optimist]

Why would the IAF lie about it?

Do you have a link to what was actually said about supercruise? As I said, the frogs say, just the IR pod pulls it back to M1.4 in afterburner.

 

[randomradio]

I should explain the situation regarding the Rafale radar.
First I would like to talk about pulse compression, which is a process used to emit more energy to the target by spreading it out in time and compressing the return signal to get a detection.

I've already talked about it using the example of compression up to 30, because I thought that larger compressions were classified, and then I read in open source that the order of magnitude of the compression used by the ATL2 radar was of the order of 500. So that allows me to take more realistic examples for the Rafale.

Then I was also disappointed not to hear any more about GaN for F4.2, but a Thales insider told me that the price of this technology had dropped but that it was still expensive, so in the meantime we are doing something else: what is being developed is a multi-channel receiver, I was told that it also increases the range and that it has other qualities.

It is considered a new generation, the AN/APG-85 that will equip the F-35 will be multi-channel and so will the ECRS Mk2. Using this technology before GaN is interesting because the longer you wait for GaN the cheaper it will be, while the price of multi-channel is the same now and later.

The Rafale AESA antenna allows a detection of 160 km for a 1 m2 target, so assuming that the F-35 has a RCS of 0.0015 M2 it will be detected at 31.5 km. If we switch to GaN we multiply the power by 3 and the range becomes 41.5 km.

All this is well below the IRST range, which can be estimated at 100 km to detect the F-35. But we still have to measure the distance and for that we can use the Radar that we point in the direction given by the IRST, with a pulse compression of 100. If we have a GaN antenna, the necessary compression will only be 34. This is an advantage, but it is not essential.

On the other hand, one could not use these levels of compression to scan a large area, or one would have to do it very slowly so as not to generate heat that could not be extracted. But for one track or even 40 the extra heat generated is negligible.

The Rafale can't rely on itself to fight the F-35 though. It requires multiship, multistatic capabilities. If it's purely about single radar performance, then the MKI's new radar will have a 2-2.5 times advantage over the Rafale's radar. And it's still not enough because you have underestimated the F-35's RCS in your calculations.

GaN's other qualities are more important to deal with stealth targets. Like SNR and SNDR. And pulse compression is just software and processing, it will be taken care of in time. And the GaN's higher bias voltage resulting in a much higher bandwidth is also necessary for generating superior results when using pulse compression. One could argue a 34:1 ratio for GaN is better than a 100:1 ratio for GaAs with its ability to reduce distortion and suppress noise while delivering greater power.

But what was more important for the Rafale was the GaN upgrade wasn't just a replacement for the RBE-2's front-end. It was supposed to be a whole new radar. So, after F3, F5 is of the most importance, with F6 and F7 being workhorses with relatively nominal capability boosts, and this seems to explain the delay in starting MRFA. There's really no point in getting more Rafales in its current configuration when we are up against the J-20. And this also explains why the IAF is so focused on ground-based SAMs.

A digital antenna is a normal evolution irrespective of the type of material used. The IAF and IN have been operating S band GaN with digital designs since 2011, via Israel. Although I personally haven't received confirmation, Uttam is very likely also digital. It's easy to make such an assumption because we know a lot of DRDO's older GaAs radars are also digital. It would explain why DRDO's claimed an RBE2 AESA equivalent performance with far lower number of TRMs for LCA Mk1A.

In any case, the Rafale's slower progress in avionics and its lack of equivalence with the F-35 when it comes to ground strike explains why Rafale has not been very successful in Europe, where air forces need ground strike more than air superiority, unlike India.

 

[randomradio]

New radars could make a difference for the F-35. Lot 18 should be late 2025 or early 2026.

Although I think the most likely timeline for a Taiwan war would be 2025 especially if a Republican wins due to transition of power.

Trump vs Xi.

Anyway, yeah, the US seems to have unofficially bumped up the war date to 2025.

We can only hope the TR3 will unlock some of the F-35's capabilities by then.

 

[randomradio]

Do you have a link to what was actually said about supercruise? As I said, the frogs say, just the IR pod pulls it back to M1.4 in afterburner.

I can't find the article or I would have posted it. All it did was quote an Air Marshal saying the Rafale can supercruise at mach 1.4 with AAMs.

 

[zinswinsin]

Trump vs Xi.

Anyway, yeah, the US seems to have unofficially bumped up the war date to 2025.

We can only hope the TR3 will unlock some of the F-35's capabilities by then.

Let's just hope the election goes well and there is no war.

 

[Optimist]

I can't find the article or I would have posted it. All it did was quote an Air Marshal saying the Rafale can supercruise at mach 1.4 with AAMs.

I need to see it and might even ask for confirmation. This is the BS that the fanboys are sprouting. You will never see it from Dassault or the French gov. It isn't an official french claim and in no comp has it been claimed or validated. This is the same aircraft the UAE said is underpowered, compared to their F-16.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Do you have a link to what was actually said about supercruise? As I said, the frogs say, just the IR pod pulls it back to M1.4 in afterburner.

During Singapore evaluation, Typhoon was the only euro-canard which displayed supercruise at Mach 1.2 with weapons. Rafale and Gripen could not.

 

[Optimist]

During Singapore evaluation, Typhoon was the only euro-canard which displayed supercruise at Mach 1.2 with weapons. Rafale and Gripen could not.

The Typhoon have recessed missiles, so they are low drag. Without a tank and just recessed missiles. It may well be true. Though technically, M1.2 is still transonic for most aircraft.

 

[randomradio]

I need to see it and might even ask for confirmation. This is the BS that the fanboys are sprouting. You will never see it from Dassault or the French gov. It isn't an official french claim and in no comp has it been claimed or validated. This is the same aircraft the UAE said is underpowered, compared to their F-16.

Okay, I found it. Finally remembered his name.

He was the IAF's Rafale TP, so he knows what he's talking about. Do note he mentions stealth too.

Rafale superior to Chinese J-20: A comparison of the two fighter jets

Even though Rafale is a 4.5 generation aircraft and China claims that its J-20 is a 5th generation, the Rafale has enough capabilities to counter the Chinese premier aircraft, say experts.

www.indiatoday.in

"Su35 is also no match to the Rafale with its weapons, superior sensors and fully integrated architecture. The capability to super cruise even with four missiles, stealth characteristics all put together make the Rafale far more potent than Su35," Nambiar added.

An article by another Air Marshal:

Dassault Rafale – The Gust of Wind – Despite COVID – All Set to Arrive on Schedule

There will be no delay in delivery of 36 Rafale jets to India as the timeline finalised for the supply of the fighter jets will be strictly respected, French Ambassador Emmanuel Lenain has said. &#…

airpowerasia.com

The engines enables super-cruise while carrying four missiles and one drop tank.

Then our ACM:

Chinese Military Experts Slam India Over Rafale Jets 'Hyped-Up' Propaganda

After almost every Indian media house claimed that the newly acquired Rafale jets were far superior to China’s J-20 aircraft, Chinese experts have slammed Indian reports and stated that the French-origin jets “do not stand much of a chance against stealth aircraft, 4th generation (not fifth)...

eurasiantimes.com

“The Rafale has the supercruise ability and its radar signature is comparable to the best of the fighters in the world,” Dhanoa said.

 

[Innominate]

I need to see it and might even ask for confirmation. This is the BS that the fanboys are sprouting. You will never see it from Dassault or the French gov. It isn't an official french claim and in no comp has it been claimed or validated. This is the same aircraft the UAE said is underpowered, compared to their F-16.

Safran CEO said this in 2016...

CEO of Safran, Philippe Petitcolin that, the engine upgrade in terms of thrust was necessary as the Rafale had grown heavier over the years due to addition of weapons and other systems.

He said that the original thrust of the Rafale engine was the same since the launch of the French fighter. The Rafale was designed over two decades ago.

Rafale F2 or F3 was never tested to see if it can super cruise especially with missiles and a tank it was the A model/prototype that was able to super cruise. This fighter has gotten plenty heavy with no thrust upgrade yet logic escapes these Rafale fanboys.

 

[randomradio]

Let's just hope the election goes well and there is no war.

If you have been following the Chinese side of things, they are already beating the war drums internally. Both the economy and people are being prepped for war. The people are also being fed with propaganda about the US.

For China, Taiwan is an existential threat. The only way for the US to avoid war is to give Taiwan up.

And an even more alarmist date:

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www.ft.com

The head of the US Navy has warned that the American military must be prepared for the possibility of a Chinese invasion of Taiwan before 2024, as Washington grows increasingly alarmed about the threat to the island.

“When we talk about the 2027 window, in my mind that has to be a 2022 window or potentially a 2023 window,” Gilday told the Atlantic Council on Wednesday. “I don’t mean at all to be alarmist . . . it’s just that we can’t wish that away.”

It makes sense for the Chinese to attack Taiwan before the US completes its modernisation and reorientation towards the Pacific, and while the world is still dependent on Chinese industry.

I also no longer back this theory about China attacking India for practice before the real thing in the Pacific. The Chinese will want to keep their capabilities secret in a war with the US, and they need different set of capabilities against India, including actual war experience. A war with the US is more technology-oriented (air superiority), where even the US has limited experience, and less manpower-oriented (ground operations), where India has a lot of experience. Against India it's the opposite, the Chinese need experienced troops.

So, do your best, 'cause we are next.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Truth be told, the Chinese themselves see the J-20 as a 4th Gen FA on par with F-16 etc. What the West characterise as 6th Gen as far as Chinese military aviation goes as in what's going to succeed the J-20 , is what the Chinese see as 5th Gen. That's how they've structured their definitions of what constitutes generations in FAs & which FA comes under what generation.

My personal opinion is the Chinese are going about it the way RoK has structured their 5th Gen FA program or the way we're going about AMCA. Hence the J-20 would be some sort of 4.75++Gen version with some characteristics of a 5th Gen FA.It's no wonder that they're churning out so many copies of the J-20.

Now this would've been known to PLAAF watchers in Taiwan & Japan AFs long ago & thru them the USAF. Our guys in the IAF must've known about it too after the above named resources & thru them. Which is why I've said this before that stealth is the only USP as far as the J-20 goes. Having said that we can't rule out better iterations & more advanced features between now & 2030 but the FA to watch out for would be their 6th Gen FA.