That's incorrect. The Typhoon was the only aircraft that could go supersonic within a short span of time, because their airspace is small. The F-15 and Rafale failed to do that. Singapore does not care about supercruise.
Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion
- Thread starter Nick
- Start date
That's incorrect. The Typhoon was the only aircraft that could go supersonic within a short span of time, because their airspace is small. The F-15 and Rafale failed to do that. Singapore does not care about supercruise.
Pls quote what le Francaise defence ministry officials say, what does Dassault say , what does their equivalent of the GAO say, what do their various equivalents of your various Congress committees connected to defense esp aviation say, ma cherie sweetie.
Don't come up with old trailer park style hustles all the time. You're too old for that even if you're in your late teens coz You've spent 1.5 yrs + here. Show us you've learned to hustle better else we'd become the laughing stock of defence forums in our part of the world, you see coz unlike you we've a reputation to maintain.
This is why critical thinking skills are necessary.
Chinese 3rd gen = Western 4th gen = J-11, J-10, F-16, F-15, Su-27 etc
Chinese 4th gen = Western 5th gen = F-22, F-35, Su-57, J-20 etc
Chinese 5th gen = Western 6th gen = NGAD, NgAD, J-XX etc
The Chinese skipped out on 1st gen because they didn't have a Me-262, Mi-15 and F-86 equivalent. Their 1st gen was a Mig-21 cousin, hence Western 2nd gen.
Really, can't do without critical thinking skills.
What the Chinese think about their own jet:
eurasiantimes.com
Captain Yang Juncheng of the “Wang Hai” brigade of the PLA Air Force recently told Chinese Central Television (CCTV) that he flew over Taiwan, overseeing the entire island from his cockpit. The pilot informed the channel that he flew over Bashi Channel, Miyako Strait, and Tsushima Strait in the East China Sea.
Yang said, “When I was flying the fighter plane Treasure Island of the motherland, I could see the entire coastline and mountains of the Treasure Island. At that moment, I was proud and proud [sic].”
eurasiantimes.com
Speaking to China Central Television (CCTV) on November 8, J-16 pilot Zhang Yang said, “The J-20, J-16, and J-10C are the three current main fighter jets (of the Chinese air force).
The three models are utilized together, mainly with the J-20’s great capacity of situational awareness guiding the two other models, while the J-16 and J-10C exert their firepower superiority.”
www.unilodge.com.au
Chinese 3rd gen = Western 4th gen = J-11, J-10, F-16, F-15, Su-27 etc
Chinese 4th gen = Western 5th gen = F-22, F-35, Su-57, J-20 etc
Chinese 5th gen = Western 6th gen = NGAD, NgAD, J-XX etc
The Chinese skipped out on 1st gen because they didn't have a Me-262, Mi-15 and F-86 equivalent. Their 1st gen was a Mig-21 cousin, hence Western 2nd gen.
Really, can't do without critical thinking skills.
What the Chinese think about their own jet:
China's J-20 Fighter Pilot Claims Flying Over Taiwan Undetected; Did Taipei Fail To Spot The Stealthy Dragon?
China’s mighty dragon J-20 stealth fighter aircraft has allegedly flew near Taiwan's airspace without getting intercepted
eurasiantimes.com
Yang said, “When I was flying the fighter plane Treasure Island of the motherland, I could see the entire coastline and mountains of the Treasure Island. At that moment, I was proud and proud [sic].”
‘I See, You Shoot’: Chinese Fighter Pilot Explains How ‘Deadly Trio’ Of J-20, J-16 & J-10 Jets Can Wreak Havoc On Opponents
China's J-20 stealth fighter will act as the 'eyes' and 'ears' of the J-16 and J-10C jets for the other two to release their massive payload
eurasiantimes.com
The three models are utilized together, mainly with the J-20’s great capacity of situational awareness guiding the two other models, while the J-16 and J-10C exert their firepower superiority.”
How to Develop Critical Thinking | UniLodge
Critical thinking is essential for a successful academic life. Learn how to develop these skills with advice from UniLodge.
www.unilodge.com.au
Interview by AirFan December 2022
The Atlantic Trident exercises have confirmed that the Rafale can and does work fully integrated with the two US fighters. We are particularly pleased with the way it behaves when we fly in the same device. We cooperate with them in a totally seamless way. In fact, I believe that the Rafale is on a par with the F-35 in terms of the quality of its sensors and its data fusion and the tremendous ability it has to integrate into the French and allied command networks. It is even superior to the F-35 in terms of weapons carried and even autonomy thanks to its three 2000-litre tanks.
(..)
Let's take the case where we are flying in the blue camp, all the blue marshal expectation zones are composed of racecourses where the fighters regroup at different altitudes (...) before pushing into the red territory. The planes follow each other in a precise order, with the sweepers first to establish superiority by destroying the opposing interceptors. They are followed shortly by the SEAD/DEAD aircraft (the growlers) and the Australian and US f-35s responsible for neutralising the opposing ground-air systems. Then it's the turn of the strikers in charge of the strikes. Our rafales are very often the sweepers and we are therefore regularly in front to ensure the first entry
(..)
The returns to Darwin were just as well organised with the strikers going in first once they had made their strike while the sweep fighters stayed in cover to ensure that everyone left the area safely. (...) the sweep pilots performed the role of mission commander on many occasions for both the reds and the blues far beyond what the small number of sweeps sent would suggest.
The Atlantic Trident exercises have confirmed that the Rafale can and does work fully integrated with the two US fighters. We are particularly pleased with the way it behaves when we fly in the same device. We cooperate with them in a totally seamless way. In fact, I believe that the Rafale is on a par with the F-35 in terms of the quality of its sensors and its data fusion and the tremendous ability it has to integrate into the French and allied command networks. It is even superior to the F-35 in terms of weapons carried and even autonomy thanks to its three 2000-litre tanks.
(..)
Let's take the case where we are flying in the blue camp, all the blue marshal expectation zones are composed of racecourses where the fighters regroup at different altitudes (...) before pushing into the red territory. The planes follow each other in a precise order, with the sweepers first to establish superiority by destroying the opposing interceptors. They are followed shortly by the SEAD/DEAD aircraft (the growlers) and the Australian and US f-35s responsible for neutralising the opposing ground-air systems. Then it's the turn of the strikers in charge of the strikes. Our rafales are very often the sweepers and we are therefore regularly in front to ensure the first entry
(..)
The returns to Darwin were just as well organised with the strikers going in first once they had made their strike while the sweep fighters stayed in cover to ensure that everyone left the area safely. (...) the sweep pilots performed the role of mission commander on many occasions for both the reds and the blues far beyond what the small number of sweeps sent would suggest.
Something for the MKI people, and others who think supercruise isn't important.
eurasiantimes.com
However, Antony added that only a peer stealth fighter could track and intercept an approaching aircraft when it has super-cruise, maneuverability, and superior avionics. “It sounds reasonable that J-20s were sent to intercept and identify when the US or Japanese stealth fighters approach,” he said.
China’s J-20 ‘Clashes’ With US F-35? PLAAF Releases Possible Post-Encounter Video Of Stealth Fighters' Clash
The J-20 stealth fighter of the PLA Air Force has become the cornerstone of its operations in the Indo-Pacific region. Multiple reports in the official state media suggest that the J-20 stealth fighter is a crucial player in intercepting foreign aircraft over the Taiwan Strait and the East China...
eurasiantimes.com
Its chief of staff, General André Lanata, spoke about the American plane before the deputies of the defense committee.
"The F-35 will quickly become a gold standard in the world's air forces, not just in the United States but also in our key partners. That one is outclassed by the United States is not surprising; that we start to be by equivalent partners is another matter," General Lanata, Chief of Staff of the Air Force, said during his recent hearing at the National Assembly. Among these "equivalent partners", he cited the United Kingdom and Australia. "I see a very significant pressure from the American aviation industry in Europe, with the gradual deployment of a latest-generation fighter jet, the F-35. The latter changes the game in terms of operational capabilities mainly because of its discretion – it is not detected by current radars – and its connectivity capabilities: it massively connects information with other aircraft in the air combat system. If I speak of air combat system, it is because we must not consider each aircraft taken in isolation but design the system as a whole: it is this system that produces effects, thanks to the connection that we manage to establish between the different mobiles of the air combat device, "he added.Without mentioning it directly - at least in the version proofread and corrected in his hearing - General Lanata addressed the question of Germany, which is interested in the F-35 to replace the Tornados, even if no decision is expected before next year. "It seems interesting to me to take an initiative with Germany to engage in dialogue, to study the possibilities of cooperation to replace together our fleets of combat aircraft. As a first approach we could have needs similar to those of Germany in this area. We are still two countries in Europe that have investment capabilities, and Germany is showing the will to do so, with a significant increase in its defence budgets. Germany could be a partner, provided that it finds the balanced industrial architectures that will make it possible to carry out these cooperations. We will indeed have to assert our strengths in this area.
Le F-35 préoccupe l’armée de l’air
Son chef d’état-major, le général André Lanata, a évoqué l’avion américain devant les députés de la commission de la défense.
www.lopinion.fr
He's basically conceding France will be outclassed by its peers once they field their F-35's which some have already started.
This is a 2017 article so he still has hope that Germany will join them in developing a stealth fighter but we all know how that turned out.
So if this frog admits the F-35 outclasses the Rafale does that mean Rafale has no class?
The MiG- 15 was very much part of PLAAF .
www.museumofflight.org
en.wikipedia.org
To those who're interested in how FA generations are defined & also for those deluded enough to think they can write such definitions -
www.sandboxx.us
Here's another article :
theaviationist.com
This is how the Chinese define their Generations of FA . The self deluded should take note of this -
chinapower.csis.org
Instead of The Eurasian Times , resident story teller ought to consult me on which are the best sources of Chinese propoganda to be quoted.
Hope he bookmarks this particular website for future reference & not betray amateur skills the next time .
Here's how one can enhance ones story telling skills . For that one needs to be self delusional . Here's the definition of self delusion -
Definition of SELF-DELUSION
Of course , delusions experienced over a persistent period of time can also be symptoms of a larger malaise viz Schizophrenia .
Here's the definition of story teller -
Definition of STORYTELLER
N.B- the definition in Clause C doesn't apply in this case . Frankly , I don't know how did it get there in the first place .
Mikoyan & Gurevich MiG-15bis (Chinese Modified) | The Mus...
Developed by the Soviet Union, the MiG-15 first flew in 1947 and entered service in June 1950, just in time for the Korean War.
www.museumofflight.org
Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15 - Wikipedia
To those who're interested in how FA generations are defined & also for those deluded enough to think they can write such definitions -
Everything you need to know about fighter generations
In 2005, the United States became the first nation on earth to field an operational 5th generation fighter in the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor. When you look at the F-22 compared to its 4th generation predecessors, the aircraft clearly stands out… but what exactly made it the first of a new...
www.sandboxx.us
Here's another article :
Fighter generations comparison chart
The appearance of the new J-20 (unofficially dubbed "Black Eagle") raised many questions about the Chinese stealth fighter. Some experts think it will be
theaviationist.com
This is how the Chinese define their Generations of FA . The self deluded should take note of this -
Does China’s J-20 rival other stealth fighters?
The Chengdu J-20 marks the first entry of a multirole stealth fighter into China’s armed forces. According to the Department of Defense (DOD), China views stealth technology as a core component in the transformation of its air force from “a predominantly territorial air force to one capable of...
Instead of The Eurasian Times , resident story teller ought to consult me on which are the best sources of Chinese propoganda to be quoted.
Hope he bookmarks this particular website for future reference & not betray amateur skills the next time .
Here's how one can enhance ones story telling skills . For that one needs to be self delusional . Here's the definition of self delusion -
Definition of SELF-DELUSION
Of course , delusions experienced over a persistent period of time can also be symptoms of a larger malaise viz Schizophrenia .
Here's the definition of story teller -
Definition of STORYTELLER
N.B- the definition in Clause C doesn't apply in this case . Frankly , I don't know how did it get there in the first place .
Its chief of staff, General André Lanata, spoke about the American plane before the deputies of the defense committee.
"The F-35 will quickly become a gold standard in the world's air forces, not just in the United States but also in our key partners. That one is outclassed by the United States is not surprising; that we start to be by equivalent partners is another matter," General Lanata, Chief of Staff of the Air Force, said during his recent hearing at the National Assembly. Among these "equivalent partners", he cited the United Kingdom and Australia. "I see a very significant pressure from the American aviation industry in Europe, with the gradual deployment of a latest-generation fighter jet, the F-35. The latter changes the game in terms of operational capabilities mainly because of its discretion – it is not detected by current radars – and its connectivity capabilities: it massively connects information with other aircraft in the air combat system. If I speak of air combat system, it is because we must not consider each aircraft taken in isolation but design the system as a whole: it is this system that produces effects, thanks to the connection that we manage to establish between the different mobiles of the air combat device, "he added.
Without mentioning it directly - at least in the version proofread and corrected in his hearing - General Lanata addressed the question of Germany, which is interested in the F-35 to replace the Tornados, even if no decision is expected before next year. "It seems interesting to me to take an initiative with Germany to engage in dialogue, to study the possibilities of cooperation to replace together our fleets of combat aircraft. As a first approach we could have needs similar to those of Germany in this area. We are still two countries in Europe that have investment capabilities, and Germany is showing the will to do so, with a significant increase in its defence budgets. Germany could be a partner, provided that it finds the balanced industrial architectures that will make it possible to carry out these cooperations. We will indeed have to assert our strengths in this area.
Le F-35 préoccupe l’armée de l’air
Son chef d’état-major, le général André Lanata, a évoqué l’avion américain devant les députés de la commission de la défense.
Damn , sweetie's on a roll . 4 consecutive posts today after he / xe / she / xhe was douched in both ends in sweetie's annual session lasting 10 days this time .
Looks like sweetie took my advice seriously & decided to take ownership of this thread defending it's "honour." I'm so proud of sweetie especially for taking my advice.
Hence FCAS .
This is a 2017 article so he still has hope that Germany will join them in developing a stealth fighter but we all know how that turned out.
Collaboration is still on though Dassault is preparing & prepared for any eventuality . They can go it alone as Rafale demonstrated & still come up with a world class " trouble free " product unlike the F-35 which was constipated from the day it was inducted into the USAF.
Hopefully by 2030 it'd come out .....
Of the jinx , I meant .
So if this frog admits the F-35 outclasses the Rafale does that mean Rafale has no class?
It means we need to get cracking on the 6th Gen FA project ASAP. It also means we need to avoid trailer park level Project Management skills & consequent delays that the F-35 program infamously underwent & will be remembered for.
It was in 2017. It seems to french rafale's pilots and australian planners that rafale had better play time than any other fighters during pitch black 2022. (including F-35, F/A-18 , Typhoon, F2, F-15C ..)
Considering this exercice indian rafale pilots are able to lead any coalition against China for example being the first to enter to take the air superiority and the last to go out to protect all the other fighters and for example the F-35 strike fighters.
Even australian air force has no doubt on rafale capability.
If there is any problem on that Pitch Black exercice Commandant Guillaume, General Groën or Lieutenant Guillaume can repeat their interview I think.
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Oh, no, critical thinking gone for a toss, I suppose. Oh, well, I tried. Not everybody can be saved.
Another soul lost to the same abyss as those lost to wokeness.
You can't argue with some people using logic.
Another soul lost to the same abyss as those lost to wokeness.
You can't argue with some people using logic.
1 - The way Rafales were used during Pitch Black 2022 is an argue to show that as soon as operational needs are taken into account, rafale can be used in a very hard manners even to take air superiority. Thanks to rafale IAF can integrate any coalitions even to lead them.
2 - Rafale pilots don't fear comparisons, fights or coalitions with any other fighters and I believed Indian Rafale's pilots are among them.
No plane will be properly able to super cruise with hanging weapons. Even if it does, the drag penalty will be too much and fuel efficiency would be severely hindered.
As of now, there is still only one plane in the world with effective super cruise: F-22 Raptor.
Su-57M should both match and exceed the Raptor(with Type-30 engines), with China following suit with J-20 and WS-15 combo.
Super cruise in any 4th gen is just a hyperbole and marketing gimmick, nothing more and nothing less.
Typhoon won all three criteria. It went supersonic without burners with external weapons load(in a short airspace)which neither Rafale or Gripen could achieve.
It also defeated 3 F-16s in dogfight, which others failed to do.
# 4470 is a proper example of being highly self deluded but resulting in poor story telling skills. This is lesson for aspiring story tellers to imbibe . Never ever make assertive statements like the one regarding MiG-15s not being part of PLAAF. From there the entire argument collapses built as it is on a flimsy foundation .
Also note pls always leave wriggle room to slink out of . In many ways resident story teller forgot his own golden rules . Which implies lack of critical thinking to begin with .
Also do remember too much self delusion over a period of time could be a symptom of a deeper malaise . I'd recommend the Rorschach test for confirmation before submitting oneself for therapy.
Also note pls always leave wriggle room to slink out of . In many ways resident story teller forgot his own golden rules . Which implies lack of critical thinking to begin with .
Also do remember too much self delusion over a period of time could be a symptom of a deeper malaise . I'd recommend the Rorschach test for confirmation before submitting oneself for therapy.
# 4470 is a proper example of being highly self deluded but resulting in poor story telling skills. This is lesson for aspiring story tellers to imbibe . Never ever make assertive statements like the one regarding MiG-15s not being part of PLAAF. From there the entire argument collapses built as it is on a flimsy foundation .
Also note pls always leave wriggle room to slink out of . In many ways resident story teller forgot his own golden rules . Which implies lack of critical thinking to begin with .
Also do remember too much self delusion over a period of time could be a symptom of a deeper malaise . I'd recommend the Rorschach test for confirmation before submitting oneself for therapy.
Like Hamlet to Gertrude, I too implore you - Assume a kindness if thy have it not.
US shoots down unknown 'high-altitude object' over Alaska, White House says
Recovery operations continued Saturday to retrieve a "high-altitude object" shot down over the waters off Alaska. U.S. Northern Command said in a statement that arctic weather conditions, including wind chill and limited daylight, were a factor in the search occurring on sea ice and that...
Fighter aircraft shoot down car-sized ‘object’ flying near Alaska
Officials have not been able to identify what the object is or to whom it belongs.
www.militarytimes.com
Fix coming for F-35 engine problem that froze fighters’ deliveries
Supersonic, yes. Supercruise, the Singaporeans didn't care much about that. They decided to go for American, which they were always planning on, like the Koreans.
4474 is a typical result of not being able to read or comprehend what is being said.
The Chinese gave their generations based on what they have DEVELOPED, not what they have OPERATED. They operated the Mig-15 under a different monicker, but their first DEVELOPMENT was based on the Mig-21 that they called J-7. So the J-7 was their first generation, whereas the Mig-21 was the world's second generation. Then came the Chinese 2nd gen DEVELOPMENT called the J-8, which the world called 3rd gen. Then came the 3rd generation J-10 DEVELOPMENT, which the world called 4th gen, and finally they DEVELOPED the 4th gen J-20 which is referred to as 5th gen by the world.
Really... Without critical thinking skills, the world stops making sense and you start tripping on your own words.
On the one hand, I debate with the intention of building bridges with members of other countries, to the point where one member has even pointed out that my conversation with him has helped him create new strategies for future cooperation between India and France. And I'm geniunely happy to know I have helped in some way.
On the other, I have to deal with a 60-year-old attention-seeking manchild suffering from a psychopathic narcissistic Machiavellian personality disorder, but utilises the tactics of a 16-year-old highschool girl, reputation damage, and thinks normal-thinking adults have no clue as to how "clever" he thinks he is.
Somebody needs to tell him he needs therapy. It's geniune advice.
www.simplypsychology.org
The dark triad personality refers to three negative personality traits: narcissism (entitled self-importance), Machiavellianism (entitled self-importance), Machiavellianism (strategic exploitation and deceit), and subclinical psychopathy (callousness and cynicism), which all share malevolent features.
Each of these traits operates on a continuum. People who have this toxic combination of these personality traits can undermine their colleagues and negatively impact them in a lasting way, masked with a charismatic and charming character.
And I hope the person in question reads the article and then seeks help on his own.
The Chinese gave their generations based on what they have DEVELOPED, not what they have OPERATED. They operated the Mig-15 under a different monicker, but their first DEVELOPMENT was based on the Mig-21 that they called J-7. So the J-7 was their first generation, whereas the Mig-21 was the world's second generation. Then came the Chinese 2nd gen DEVELOPMENT called the J-8, which the world called 3rd gen. Then came the 3rd generation J-10 DEVELOPMENT, which the world called 4th gen, and finally they DEVELOPED the 4th gen J-20 which is referred to as 5th gen by the world.
Really... Without critical thinking skills, the world stops making sense and you start tripping on your own words.
On the one hand, I debate with the intention of building bridges with members of other countries, to the point where one member has even pointed out that my conversation with him has helped him create new strategies for future cooperation between India and France. And I'm geniunely happy to know I have helped in some way.
On the other, I have to deal with a 60-year-old attention-seeking manchild suffering from a psychopathic narcissistic Machiavellian personality disorder, but utilises the tactics of a 16-year-old highschool girl, reputation damage, and thinks normal-thinking adults have no clue as to how "clever" he thinks he is.
Somebody needs to tell him he needs therapy. It's geniune advice.
Dark Triad Personality Traits
The Dark Triad refers to three interconnected personality traits - narcissism, Machiavellianism, and psychopathy - that are characterized by callous manipulation, selfishness, and ruthlessness. Individuals with dark triad traits are motivated by their own gain with little regard for others.
www.simplypsychology.org
Each of these traits operates on a continuum. People who have this toxic combination of these personality traits can undermine their colleagues and negatively impact them in a lasting way, masked with a charismatic and charming character.
And I hope the person in question reads the article and then seeks help on his own.
From MiG -19 was never part of the PLAAF which is why the Chinese skipped out the 1st Gen, we've graduated within less than the space of a day to the Chinese operated the MiG-19 under a different moniker ( left unsaid is because the nomenclature was different, resident story teller who's also a closet Mandarin speaker, among many other things that I'd get to later - all post 8 pm , couldn't recognize the FA, hence the previous error which's since been rectified. "So it's all good. ") but since it was NOT DEVELOPED by them MERELY OPERATED by them, they did not account for it while defining Generations for FA.
Source - (its still the same , like it has been forever, silly ) - trust me, bro.
I actually wanted to inform everybody ,who're actually taking the trouble of reading this deconstruction of RST fwiw , but not RESIDENT STORYTELLER himself, that both the J-5 & J-6 WEREN'T DEVELOPED by China BUT LICENSE PRODUCED FROM SKD & CKD ( which'd blow his argument up at the very onset of my rebuttal , but I won't) like we did later with HAL, which is why they're listed as 1st Gen & J-7 as 2nd Gen, because the MiG-15 was first inducted in 1949 -50 , hence conforming to the broad gist for the intrinsic link between T/L & Generations for the purpose of classification of FA as per the Chinese system , according to the link I've provided in the article in # 4468
but that'd mean more heart burn for RST, more tearing of hair , more convoluted reasoning, more & more pages being needlessly filled in resulting in more bytes of data & bigger bills for storage thus incurred on servers for the administration & management here. So I won't point it out .
Instead I'd point out to a logical fallacy which is immediately & clearly visible & the greatest weakness in RST's line of argument.
Instead of arguing development, RST should've argued mfg - with or without ToT, since the MiG-15 though inducted very early in 1950 (was not mfgd in China)at least as per official records though it's quite possible PLAAF & DPRK pilots were trained well in advance as Kim Il Sung broached the subject of invasion of what's now RoK in 1949 itself with Stalin for which he asked Kim to co ordinate with Mao as SU couldn't afford to be directly involved as they were still recovering from WW-2 & didn't have any Marshall Plan to bail them out plus NATO had come into existence.
{ Stalin feared getting flanked on either side & wasn't confident of marshalling enough resources to fight on both or either front. OTOH he promised both Kim & Mao full support including arms, ammo, training, etc for he was confident Mao wouldn't & couldn't live with the Americans in both post WW-2 Japan & RoK flanking him & stoking his paranoia.
In the event Stalin was right about Mao & his line of thought. It's another matter that Mao & his successors just like Kim & his descendants had to live with the Americans in the Korean peninsula & Japan till date. }
But I digress. Coming back to the topic, had he chosen this line of argument namely MANUFACTURING instead of DEVELOPMENT , he can still get out of jail. I'm willing display large heartedness if RST were to claim a typo & let the matter rest. It's another matter that I'm in strong agreement with the phrase - Naql mein bhi Aql chahiye. But I'm willing to overlook that as well putting it down to post 8 pm hangover.
Just that one change brings his argument in harmony with the definition of generations of FA in the Chinese system of things as then their 1st Gen is J-5 & J-6 thru ToT & deployment in the 1950's & 60's , J-7 in the 1970's & on & on with some overlap in T/Ls as pointed out below.
Curiously & just to puncture RST's argument more, the J-7 themselves were license built & NOT DEVELOPED AS FAR AS THE FIRST PRODUCTION MODELS WENT ( which happened later that decade onwards) but & here's the catch - while China received most of the drawings & ToT in 1964 , THEY DIDN'T RECEIVE IT ALL, as the famous Sino Soviet split occured in 1962 & the Chinese had to make do with what they had.
en.wikipedia.org
Although the Chinese mfgd the initial lot of J-7 in 1967 , based on the kits they received & thanks to reverse engineering , due to a whole host of reasons & thanks to not receiving comprehensive drawings, the Chinese had to develop some sub systems in house which took a lot of time as they lacked industrial expertise & depth. Long story short they achieved Soviet Union standards for performance of the MiG-21 only in the mid 80's thru a lot of trial & error.
Just to recapitulate my argument here's the list of Generations of FA as defined by the Chinese with the article linked.
�
chinapower.csis.org
That statement there about critical thinking is a rare candid admission by RST about his own methods & needs to be bookmarked for future reference which I've just done. It's funny how when a man's under the cosh, he blurts out the truth, however inadvertently, projecting it on others.
Signs of pathological lying? Nah..
Only story telling.
So some member here has benefited from RST's pearls of wisdom. Some time back some famous analyst from a reputed TT & a former or serving General from the IA both of whom shall remain unknown - for obvious reasons, benefited from his wisdom too.
How come I don't get credit for basing my posts on his only to debunk those posts? Sigh! It's truly an unfair world.
Some yrs ago we were given a glimpse into RST's thought process where he claimed he could offer three perspectives for any development program 1.) The scientist version from the R&D lab 2.) The user's perspective & 3.) The outsider's perspective .
He also claimed that it can all get very confusing at times to lay people. Left unsaid was he was never confused as he doesn't belong to the lay people category. Now certain unkind uncharitable folk would term this 3 perspective roop darshan as MPD - multiple personality disorder, but what do they know?
The rest of #4479 is to be read as Resident Storyteller's confession masquerading as an accusation or J'accuse as it used to be in the French Revolution.
Source - (its still the same , like it has been forever, silly ) - trust me, bro.
I actually wanted to inform everybody ,who're actually taking the trouble of reading this deconstruction of RST fwiw , but not RESIDENT STORYTELLER himself, that both the J-5 & J-6 WEREN'T DEVELOPED by China BUT LICENSE PRODUCED FROM SKD & CKD ( which'd blow his argument up at the very onset of my rebuttal , but I won't) like we did later with HAL, which is why they're listed as 1st Gen & J-7 as 2nd Gen, because the MiG-15 was first inducted in 1949 -50 , hence conforming to the broad gist for the intrinsic link between T/L & Generations for the purpose of classification of FA as per the Chinese system , according to the link I've provided in the article in # 4468
but that'd mean more heart burn for RST, more tearing of hair , more convoluted reasoning, more & more pages being needlessly filled in resulting in more bytes of data & bigger bills for storage thus incurred on servers for the administration & management here. So I won't point it out .
Instead I'd point out to a logical fallacy which is immediately & clearly visible & the greatest weakness in RST's line of argument.
Instead of arguing development, RST should've argued mfg - with or without ToT, since the MiG-15 though inducted very early in 1950 (was not mfgd in China)at least as per official records though it's quite possible PLAAF & DPRK pilots were trained well in advance as Kim Il Sung broached the subject of invasion of what's now RoK in 1949 itself with Stalin for which he asked Kim to co ordinate with Mao as SU couldn't afford to be directly involved as they were still recovering from WW-2 & didn't have any Marshall Plan to bail them out plus NATO had come into existence.
{ Stalin feared getting flanked on either side & wasn't confident of marshalling enough resources to fight on both or either front. OTOH he promised both Kim & Mao full support including arms, ammo, training, etc for he was confident Mao wouldn't & couldn't live with the Americans in both post WW-2 Japan & RoK flanking him & stoking his paranoia.
In the event Stalin was right about Mao & his line of thought. It's another matter that Mao & his successors just like Kim & his descendants had to live with the Americans in the Korean peninsula & Japan till date. }
But I digress. Coming back to the topic, had he chosen this line of argument namely MANUFACTURING instead of DEVELOPMENT , he can still get out of jail. I'm willing display large heartedness if RST were to claim a typo & let the matter rest. It's another matter that I'm in strong agreement with the phrase - Naql mein bhi Aql chahiye. But I'm willing to overlook that as well putting it down to post 8 pm hangover.
Just that one change brings his argument in harmony with the definition of generations of FA in the Chinese system of things as then their 1st Gen is J-5 & J-6 thru ToT & deployment in the 1950's & 60's , J-7 in the 1970's & on & on with some overlap in T/Ls as pointed out below.
Curiously & just to puncture RST's argument more, the J-7 themselves were license built & NOT DEVELOPED AS FAR AS THE FIRST PRODUCTION MODELS WENT ( which happened later that decade onwards) but & here's the catch - while China received most of the drawings & ToT in 1964 , THEY DIDN'T RECEIVE IT ALL, as the famous Sino Soviet split occured in 1962 & the Chinese had to make do with what they had.
Chengdu J-7 - Wikipedia
Although the Chinese mfgd the initial lot of J-7 in 1967 , based on the kits they received & thanks to reverse engineering , due to a whole host of reasons & thanks to not receiving comprehensive drawings, the Chinese had to develop some sub systems in house which took a lot of time as they lacked industrial expertise & depth. Long story short they achieved Soviet Union standards for performance of the MiG-21 only in the mid 80's thru a lot of trial & error.
Just to recapitulate my argument here's the list of Generations of FA as defined by the Chinese with the article linked.
�
| Aircraft Generations | ||
|---|---|---|
| 1st | Circa 1945-1955 aircraft, such as: F-86. | Aircraft deployed in 1950s-1960s, such as: J-5 & J-6. |
| 2nd | Circa 1955-1960 aircraft, such as: F-104 & F-105. | Aircraft deployed in 1970s-1980s, such as: J-7 & J-8. |
| 3rd | Circa 1960-1970 aircraft, such as: F-4. | Aircraft deployed in 1990s-2000s, such as: J-10 & J-11. |
| 4th | Circa 1970-1990 aircraft, such as: F-15 & F-16. | Aircraft deployed in 2010s, such as: J-20. |
| 5th | Circa 1990-present aircraft, such as: F-22 & F-35. | N/A |
Does China’s J-20 rival other stealth fighters?
The Chengdu J-20 marks the first entry of a multirole stealth fighter into China’s armed forces. According to the Department of Defense (DOD), China views stealth technology as a core component in the transformation of its air force from “a predominantly territorial air force to one capable of...
That statement there about critical thinking is a rare candid admission by RST about his own methods & needs to be bookmarked for future reference which I've just done. It's funny how when a man's under the cosh, he blurts out the truth, however inadvertently, projecting it on others.
Signs of pathological lying? Nah..
Only story telling.
So some member here has benefited from RST's pearls of wisdom. Some time back some famous analyst from a reputed TT & a former or serving General from the IA both of whom shall remain unknown - for obvious reasons, benefited from his wisdom too.
How come I don't get credit for basing my posts on his only to debunk those posts? Sigh! It's truly an unfair world.
Some yrs ago we were given a glimpse into RST's thought process where he claimed he could offer three perspectives for any development program 1.) The scientist version from the R&D lab 2.) The user's perspective & 3.) The outsider's perspective .
He also claimed that it can all get very confusing at times to lay people. Left unsaid was he was never confused as he doesn't belong to the lay people category. Now certain unkind uncharitable folk would term this 3 perspective roop darshan as MPD - multiple personality disorder, but what do they know?
The rest of #4479 is to be read as Resident Storyteller's confession masquerading as an accusation or J'accuse as it used to be in the French Revolution.
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