Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

[Herciv]

But at least now they know exactly what they need out of their engine and cooling systems, so they will know how to manage that with the correct engine upgrade.

Nope they don't know exactly. To know that exactly you have to put specifications on paper and to make everything so that none of your equipments make more watts that it is allowed to do. But that's not the way JPO work.
Since we know how efficient The JPO are on this subject, in fact they discover the reality at each new TR at the very first flights.
And for the TR3 there are in fact much more hardware versions. With or without new radar, with or without new engine, with or without new cooling system, with or without new eodas, new EW, ....

I will change my mind on that when I will ear Raytheon or BAE said that they are on spec. Not that they are 10% more efficient on such or such point.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

If the Chinese allow the USAF to build up over the next 4 years, then the B4 F-35s and upgraded F-22s should be able to support deep strike missions.

There were two big issues impacting the lifespan of weapons in the hold:

1. The too high temperature of the hold which required opening the hold from time to time
2. excessive vibration level

The first problem is being resolved, but the solution is grandiose all the same, the second problem has not yet been addressed, that leaves hope for the rest of the Saga! And then there's even worse: The F-35 in its early days was too heavy, so much so that it risked being abandoned, so there was a campaign to drastically reduce its weight, since then. campaign for example that the F-35 can no longer approach storms because the system that was planned and that all planes have to counter this threat has been removed on the F-35 to save weight.

In this campaign they replaced certain titanium parts with the same ones but in aluminum alloy, without recalculating the resistance of the new part. Normally using titanium saves mass because titanium is denser but also more resistant, but if we replace a titanium part with an aluminum part without changing anything else we obtain a part with a longer lifespan. short, and moreover the structural tests of the F-35 did not result in success.

So here we find ourselves like with the Typhoon tranche 1 that everyone is scrapping because it would be too expensive to upgrade them. There are already 208 F-35s that can only be used for training and soon we will learn that an increasing number of F-35s are approaching a premature end of life. This is not encouraging for their ability to counter China.

 

[Lolwa]

Tempest is in same category asEF Typhoon or Rafale it won't a replace F15.

Tempest will easily replace f-15

 

[randomradio]

Nope they don't know exactly. To know that exactly you have to put specifications on paper and to make everything so that none of your equipments make more watts that it is allowed to do. But that's not the way JPO work.
Since we know how efficient The JPO are on this subject, in fact they discover the reality at each new TR at the very first flights.
And for the TR3 there are in fact much more hardware versions. With or without new radar, with or without new engine, with or without new cooling system, with or without new eodas, new EW, ....

I will change my mind on that when I will ear Raytheon or BAE said that they are on spec. Not that they are 10% more efficient on such or such point.

For the B4, the specifications are ready. They need 47 kW. They plan to get that with a new engine + changing some valves and motors that can increase the speed of the circulation.

They don't know how much is necessary for B5+, so they are looking at 60-80 with bigger pipes.

 

[Herciv]

@randomradio
Here's a typical temperature curve :

https://imgur.com/Yn3OsaB

 

[Hydra]

Tempest will easily replace f-15

Tempest,mostly will be a medium class

 

[randomradio]

There were two big issues impacting the lifespan of weapons in the hold:

1. The too high temperature of the hold which required opening the hold from time to time
2. excessive vibration level

The first problem is being resolved, but the solution is grandiose all the same, the second problem has not yet been addressed, that leaves hope for the rest of the Saga! And then there's even worse: The F-35 in its early days was too heavy, so much so that it risked being abandoned, so there was a campaign to drastically reduce its weight, since then. campaign for example that the F-35 can no longer approach storms because the system that was planned and that all planes have to counter this threat has been removed on the F-35 to save weight.

In this campaign they replaced certain titanium parts with the same ones but in aluminum alloy, without recalculating the resistance of the new part. Normally using titanium saves mass because titanium is denser but also more resistant, but if we replace a titanium part with an aluminum part without changing anything else we obtain a part with a longer lifespan. short, and moreover the structural tests of the F-35 did not result in success.

So here we find ourselves like with the Typhoon tranche 1 that everyone is scrapping because it would be too expensive to upgrade them. There are already 208 F-35s that can only be used for training and soon we will learn that an increasing number of F-35s are approaching a premature end of life. This is not encouraging for their ability to counter China.

They are all being resolved though.

The heating issue concerns with the cooling system of the avionics. Certain electronics are not yet certified to operate at the temperatures the weapons bay experiences, so they are managing that temporarily by opening the bays mid-flight until the avionics get certified. It's only a certification problem. While training, pilots are flying as usual without trying to work around the issue. And there are no issues above 25000 feet.

The vibration fix has been found.

Entire F-35 Fleet to Get Fix for Engine Vibration Issue | Air & Space Forces Magazine

The F-35 Joint Program Office has issued a directive for the entire fleet to get an engine retrofit for the harmonic resonance issue.

www.airandspaceforces.com

The lightning issue only affects the A variant. And it concerns the OBIGGS. Vibrations seem to be dislogding a tube and that's been fixed. But they apparently do not plan on removing the restriction until all As are upgraded by 2025. The B and C do not have this issue due to different specifications of OBIGGS used. This is also a certification issue.

I don't know about the weight issue or if the engine upgrade takes care of that problem.

Basically, most of the F-35's problems are certification related. The stupid mistake of building too many jets pre-certification has come back to bite them, that's all. So my guess is Lot 20 onwards will be fully certified 3Fs and some B4s with only B4 software unlocks pending until the B5. In fact Lots 18 & 19 could be fully certified 3Fs.

Whoever gets jets from 2028 onwards should receive the full B4 treatment, GaN radar, upgraded engine and whatnot.

 

[randomradio]

@randomradio
Here's a typical temperature curve :

https://imgur.com/Yn3OsaB

This graph will naturally change with faster cooling and new engine.

And range extension measures will retain more fuel in the main tanks, ie, CFTs and EFTs.

Most deep strike missions will likely be conducted by F-35Cs from carriers, so the jets have faster refueling options.

We have to assume that eventually all the American F-35s and NGADs will share the AETP.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

They are all being resolved though.

The heating issue concerns with the cooling system of the avionics. Certain electronics are not yet certified to operate at the temperatures the weapons bay experiences, so they are managing that temporarily by opening the bays mid-flight until the avionics get certified. It's only a certification problem. While training, pilots are flying as usual without trying to work around the issue. And there are no issues above 25000 feet.

The vibration fix has been found.

Entire F-35 Fleet to Get Fix for Engine Vibration Issue | Air & Space Forces Magazine

The F-35 Joint Program Office has issued a directive for the entire fleet to get an engine retrofit for the harmonic resonance issue.

www.airandspaceforces.com

The lightning issue only affects the A variant. And it concerns the OBIGGS. Vibrations seem to be dislogding a tube and that's been fixed. But they apparently do not plan on removing the restriction until all As are upgraded by 2025. The B and C do not have this issue due to different specifications of OBIGGS used. This is also a certification issue.

I don't know about the weight issue or if the engine upgrade takes care of that problem.

Basically, most of the F-35's problems are certification related. The stupid mistake of building too many jets pre-certification has come back to bite them, that's all. So my guess is Lot 20 onwards will be fully certified 3Fs and some B4s with only B4 software unlocks pending until the B5. In fact Lots 18 & 19 could be fully certified 3Fs.

Whoever gets jets from 2028 onwards should receive the full B4 treatment, GaN radar, upgraded engine and whatnot.

I find you very optimistic about the F-35

 

[randomradio]

I find you very optimistic about the F-35

There are plenty of reasons to be optimistic about it.

The question is, are whatever issues remain bigger than the overall capability of the F-35? You must have noticed the IAF swallowed their pride to induct the Mk1A.

So will the F-35 enter MRFA and win? I don't think so. Even if it entered, it won't meet LCC or industrial production requirements. But the Americans are running out of time for a strategic deal with India, so there's still a chance for a separate post-MRFA deal.

You need to consider things from the perspective of others. Even if it's true that the Rafale F5 will be superior to the F-35, the political and psychological impact of 40 F-35s in Indian hands will be far greater than 200 Rafales.

A PLAAF commander may decide the Rafales are the greater threat from a capability standpoint. But a Chinese Politburo member will see political reasons to fear the F-35, an India-US alliance, even if on the surface. The Saudis, Emiratis and ASEAN members will treat us with higher regard because of that. And the impact on the psyche of the general population in Pakistan and its air force will be far greater than the Rafales. People born in the 60s all the way to the day the F-35 is inducted will be impacted by it.

So is it really worth the price? I think it is. I'd much rather prefer 40 NGADs over F-35s, but the impact is gonna be the same.

On the Taiwan side, even with problems, the J-20 is bound to have problems, too, the massive F-35 numbers will play their part as long as the Chinese end up giving the Americans too much time, ie, 3 years.

 

[Herciv]

On the Taiwan side, even with problems, the J-20 is bound to have problems, too, the massive F-35 numbers will play their part as long as the Chinese end up giving the Americans too much time, ie, 3 years.

That's not so simple. All the F-35 fleet (more or less 1000 of them) has only been able to make 5000 hours last month.
Are we sure that it was not a capability problem ?
160000 hours in one year, this is 6000 less than previous month with more fighters and much more maintenance centers ...
The tendancy is absolutly bad.

 

[randomradio]

That's not so simple. All the F-35 fleet (more or less 1000 of them) has only been able to make 5000 hours last month.
Are we sure that it was not a capability problem ?
160000 hours in one year, this is 6000 less than previous month with more fighters and much more maintenance centers ...
The tendancy is absolutly bad.

It's a supply chain and maintenance problem, not a jet problem. It's basically a pre-certification problem. People who need to fix things don't have all the manuals. These manuals are handed over during certification typically. And the rest don't have spares 'cause the spares supply chain is much, much slower than the production line.

It's not a long term problem. Time will fix these issues.

That's why I said we should reserve judgment until 2026.

 

[Herciv]

It's a supply chain and maintenance problem, not a jet problem.

It's both. All the maintenance capacities have double since two years. We should have seen more results on the flight hours.. But as a results the hours have just been stabilized.

LM FAST FACTS:

january 2024 990 F-35s delivered, 773,000 hours. The number of sorties is no longer published. 160000 hours in one year (January 22 to January 23) (163 hours/years for each F-35)

december 2023 980 F-35 delivered, 768000 hours. 166,000 hours in one year (December 22 to December 23) and 5,000 hours this month.

January 2023 reminder: 613,000 flight hours and 890 F-35s delivered. (and 143,000 in one year compared with January 2022, with 140 more F-35s delivered). (160 hours/years for each F-35)

 

[screambowl]

Is there any special fuel for engines built for stealth aircraft which has same potential as Kerosene but lower combustion temperature?

 

[Herciv]

Is there any special fuel for engines built for stealth aircraft which has same potential as Kerosene but lower combustion temperature?

The more special the fuel is the less you can use alternative airport in case of emergency.

 

[Rajput Lion]

There are plenty of reasons to be optimistic about it.

The question is, are whatever issues remain bigger than the overall capability of the F-35? You must have noticed the IAF swallowed their pride to induct the Mk1A.

So will the F-35 enter MRFA and win? I don't think so. Even if it entered, it won't meet LCC or industrial production requirements. But the Americans are running out of time for a strategic deal with India, so there's still a chance for a separate post-MRFA deal.

You need to consider things from the perspective of others. Even if it's true that the Rafale F5 will be superior to the F-35, the political and psychological impact of 40 F-35s in Indian hands will be far greater than 200 Rafales.

A PLAAF commander may decide the Rafales are the greater threat from a capability standpoint. But a Chinese Politburo member will see political reasons to fear the F-35, an India-US alliance, even if on the surface. The Saudis, Emiratis and ASEAN members will treat us with higher regard because of that. And the impact on the psyche of the general population in Pakistan and its air force will be far greater than the Rafales. People born in the 60s all the way to the day the F-35 is inducted will be impacted by it.

So is it really worth the price? I think it is. I'd much rather prefer 40 NGADs over F-35s, but the impact is gonna be the same.

On the Taiwan side, even with problems, the J-20 is bound to have problems, too, the massive F-35 numbers will play their part as long as the Chinese end up giving the Americans too much time, ie, 3 years.

F-35 would be disastrous for IAF. Rafale is the only option for MRFA. Nothing more, nothing less.

I used to support F-35C for Indian Navy, but not too sure about that now. Rafale M and TEDBF shall suffice here as well.

 

[randomradio]

It's both. All the maintenance capacities have double since two years. We should have seen more results on the flight hours.. But as a results the hours have just been stabilized.

LM FAST FACTS:

january 2024 990 F-35s delivered, 773,000 hours. The number of sorties is no longer published. 160000 hours in one year (January 22 to January 23) (163 hours/years for each F-35)

december 2023 980 F-35 delivered, 768000 hours. 166,000 hours in one year (December 22 to December 23) and 5,000 hours this month.

January 2023 reminder: 613,000 flight hours and 890 F-35s delivered. (and 143,000 in one year compared with January 2022, with 140 more F-35s delivered). (160 hours/years for each F-35)

160 hours per year is the goal. We saw that in the Finnish evaluations too.

Even Canada:

Canadian Defence Department says it has conducted an environmental impact assessment on its purchase of F-35 warplanes - Peace Brigades International-Canada

Global News reports that Jessica Lamirande, a spokesperson for the Department of National Defence, says that an assessment has been conducted on the “environmental impact” of F-35 fighter jets that includes the “planned capture of emissions”. The article by Montreal-based reporter Gloria...

pbicanada.org

As for Canada’s current fleet, The Fiscal Analysis of the Interim F-18 Aircraft produced by the Parliamentary Budget Officer states: “Petroleum, oil and lubricant costs are calculated by combining historical burn rates per flying hour with costs per litre and projecting total costs over the assumed flight profile of 160 hours per aircraft per year.”

Some interesting data in the article concerning fuel consumption. So it appears they have got the logistics chain in order.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

160 hours per year is the goal. We saw that in the Finnish evaluations too.

This may be an objective in peacetime, but not in times of crisis or war, but for the United States, even in peacetime, it is not their objective:

https://www.dote.osd.mil/Portals/97/pub/reports/FY2019/dod/2019f35jsf.pdf?ver=2020-01-30-115432-173 page 29

For the 12 months ending September 2019, the average monthly utilization rate for the whole U.S. fleet was 18.1 flight hours per tail per month for the F-35A, 15.3for the F-35B, and 23.8 for the F-35C. This compares to Service bed-down plans from 2013, which expected F-35A and F-35C units to execute 25 flight hours per tail per month and F-35B units to execute 20 flight hours per tail per month to achieve Service goals.

25 per month => 300/year

If they can't achieve their peacetime goal, chances are they won't achieve their wartime goal.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Finally in 2019 the performance of the F-35 A was 216 h by year largely superior to 160 hour of the moment

 

[randomradio]

F-35 would be disastrous for IAF. Rafale is the only option for MRFA. Nothing more, nothing less.

I used to support F-35C for Indian Navy, but not too sure about that now. Rafale M and TEDBF shall suffice here as well.

One of the main goals of MRFA is we want to support the jet we buy independently. If the the Pentagon intends to meet that goal for the sake of a strategic relationship with India, then they will make it happen with the F-35. They are showing such an initiative with the F414 already. In case American support disappears, we can Indianize the engine. What works in favor of the F-35 is the MoD's demand is quite a modest 50% in comparison to what the French are willing to offer, 70%. So the F-35 only has to meet the 50% threshold, which they can achieve with 100% of the airframe alone, it's an expensive airframe, without having to give away most of the engine and avionics tech.

The second hurdle is LCC. The F-35 has a flight-hour and exchange rate advantage for now. Not sure if the Rafale F5 will come with the flight-hour advantage with a new training system, but it's gonna suffer with exchange rate. Plus the Rafale's unit cost is bound to be higher. But Rafale's biggest advantage is we are already operating it.

And the entire competition will be fair and transparent.

Anyway, it will only happen if the F-16's production line closes. LM will have to either replace their offer with the F-35 or bail.

The F-35 was not gonna happen for the IN. We need a jet capable of operating with the Mig-29K, that meant Russians from the UAC and F-35-related Americans on the same deck. It wasn't gonna happen. The C was a bit too heavy for the arrestor gear as well. There's a possibility for B on future carriers though. After all, we could follow the second Vikrant with a third one. The IN and IA will have the need to experiment various capabilities for a future dedicated marine force.